Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[SouthSideRyan]

But we have given some. We are hiring Epstein as a promotion from his current role with the Red Sox. Agreeing to give up ANYTHING is giving some. Lucchino is too busy stamping his feet and demanding an unreasonable return for something there is no precedent for.

[toonsterwu]

Would it break my heart to give up McNutt for Theo? No.

 

Is there any reason we should have to give up McNutt? Also no.

 

Trading McNutt for Theo is like giving Glendon Rusch 2 years and 5 mil. We could get him for a lot less, so why nickel and dime ourselves to death?

 

 

If it literally would allow Theo to pilfer whatever 5 or 6 guys he wants, sure. I think that'd be a great help to him. Otherwise, no way in hell.

 

 

Lets say for example... the offer is J Jax/Flaherty plus maybe a "sleeper" prospect (a rumor that was posted on here) for Theo only (or maybe 1 guy can go with him that is down on Theo's list and Red Sox don't care if that guy leaves)....

 

Now lets say if the offer was changed to McNutt/Flaherty plus "sleeper" prospect for Theo and like 3 or 4 (or possibly more) of the guys that ARE on the top of his list... Would you do the trade?

 

IMO, I would do that trade. Theo would have several guys in the Cubs organization right away and wouldn't have to overhaul it in one offseason (heck if he got his guys, he can slowly bring guys in the organization the next 2 years instead of trying to get most of them this offseason). Because of that, Theo can focus on the team and the offseason (FA/trades/etc...) instead of doing everything plus trying to hire guys to be in the organization.

 

McNutt is worth giving up if it means Theo can bring the guys that HE want over to the Cubs.

 

Well, who is the sleeper prospect? If it means giving up one of our high ceiling arms or positional players along with McNutt? I'd lean against no. There's always other guys he can hire, and I'm sure his confidantes throughout the league, like Jed Hoyer, can give him good recommendations. Furthermore, don't most of the rumors point to one aGM slot being filled by Josh Byrnes. There has to be some limit. I'm not against giving up McNutt, but it comes down to who that sleeper prospect is for me to say, I'm okay with the 2nd deal.

[Exile on Waveland]

It is; you're right. But this is a message board so I'm allowed to intentionally misconstrue your position to better fit my needs.

[Guest]

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather not move McNutt, but the Cubs realistically can't go to Plan B anymore considering everyone knows how far this went, and the Red Sox can't realistically have Theo around, so both sides have to give some and find a balance. Neither side is going to play hard-ball and win outright here. I hope we don't give up McNutt, but I'm not against it in the right deal.

 

The Cubs' downside is one that isn't really palpable and can be managed. They hire PR people for a reason, and "we really wanted Theo, but they were being crazy about it. I mean, have you seen what's happening over there?" practically writes itself. Plus, there's plenty of people who would be equally excited if plan B was a Friedman, Beane, or Cashman. On the other side, the Red Sox downside is both physical(millions of dollars) and PR-related(how will people come here if we hold them hostage?). There's a lot more reason to come down on the Red Sox side, especially since the re-tweeted story of the day is using our best pitching prospect as the anchor for where the negotiations are hinged.

[toonsterwu]

But we have given some. We are hiring Epstein as a promotion from his current role with the Red Sox. Agreeing to give up ANYTHING is giving some. Lucchino is too busy stamping his feet and demanding an unreasonable return for something there is no precedent for.

 

Sure, but at the end of the day, the Red Sox can still stay, okay Theo, sit home for a year. I don't think they want to, as that's a lot of pressure on Ben Cherington in his first year (any bad situation that comes up for the Red Sox, and I bet the media would come out with, WWTD articles), but the fact that they can means that they can push this as long as they want, until they feel satisfied.

 

I'm not saying I think giving up McNutt is right or fair, or whatever, but I'm saying that, it might be the price to get the deal done because of the leverage they have (and I find it ridiculous that some folks are suggesting that McNutt wouldn't be a top 8 prospect in the Sox system, saw that somewhere, I think he should get ranked ahead of Matt Barnes, who most have in the top 8), and if that's the case, then you negotiate to get a better return from our side.

 

I don't think, despite comments in this thread suggesting otherwise, that the Cubs can realistically walk away from Theo right now unless the Red Sox demands were completely ridiculous, and well, I like McNutt a lot, but I don't think McNutt should be completely untouchable in such a deal.

 

But that's me.

[Guest]

But we have given some. We are hiring Epstein as a promotion from his current role with the Red Sox. Agreeing to give up ANYTHING is giving some. Lucchino is too busy stamping his feet and demanding an unreasonable return for something there is no precedent for.

 

Sure, but at the end of the day, the Red Sox can still stay, okay Theo, sit home for a year. I don't think they want to, as that's a lot of pressure on Ben Cherington in his first year (any bad situation that comes up for the Red Sox, and I bet the media would come out with, WWTD articles), but the fact that they can means that they can push this as long as they want, until they feel satisfied.

 

So the Red Sox version of leverage is them lighting 6.5 million dollars on fire, getting nothing in return(not even unhappy Epstein's work), and still has the negative PR of holding Theo hostage? That's their trump card?

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't think, despite comments in this thread suggesting otherwise, that the Cubs can realistically walk away from Theo right now unless the Red Sox demands were completely ridiculous, and well, I like McNutt a lot, but I don't think McNutt should be completely untouchable in such a deal.

 

But that's me.

 

I'm really not sure why somebody would think that they can't walk away. They went hard after Epstein and if they can't get him due to unwarrented demands by an insane organization that is currently falling apart, they can get another guy they can sell to the public.

[KingCubsFan]

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather not move McNutt, but the Cubs realistically can't go to Plan B anymore considering everyone knows how far this went, and the Red Sox can't realistically have Theo around, so both sides have to give some and find a balance. Neither side is going to play hard-ball and win outright here. I hope we don't give up McNutt, but I'm not against it in the right deal.

 

The Cubs' downside is one that isn't really palpable and can be managed. They hire PR people for a reason, and "we really wanted Theo, but they were being crazy about it. I mean, have you seen what's happening over there?" practically writes itself. Plus, there's plenty of people who would be equally excited if plan B was a Friedman, Beane, or Cashman. On the other side, the Red Sox downside is both physical(millions of dollars) and PR-related(how will people come here if we hold them hostage?). There's a lot more reason to come down on the Red Sox side, especially since the re-tweeted story of the day is using our best pitching prospect as the anchor for where the negotiations are hinged.

Those Plan B's aren't realistic at this point though. Our Plan B would basically be Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes, which would be a huge letdown from Epstein. Both sides need to get this done.

[toonsterwu]

Oh, I just got around to reading the Mooney article. If it's McNutt and a 2nd solid prospect (although Mooney doesn't really suggest what type of talent the 2nd prospect would have to be), I'd be pretty pissed with that. All my previous posts had related to the idea of McNutt for Theo, but McNutt and another solid prospect for Theo would be overkill no matter how many guys Theo brought with him, IMO.

[Guest]

Those Plan B's aren't realistic at this point though. Our Plan B would basically be Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes, which would be a huge letdown from Epstein. Both sides need to get this done.

 

Why not? If they were ever realistic, nothing has changed that would make them less realistic than they were now. And even then, the amount of outcry at hiring Hahn, or Byrnes, or even Cherington(which would be a hilarious F U move to Boston) would be minimal because most fans don't care about GMs and spinning Boston as greedy jerks is too easy.

[SouthSideRyan]

But we have given some. We are hiring Epstein as a promotion from his current role with the Red Sox. Agreeing to give up ANYTHING is giving some. Lucchino is too busy stamping his feet and demanding an unreasonable return for something there is no precedent for.

 

Sure, but at the end of the day, the Red Sox can still stay, okay Theo, sit home for a year.

 

Can they? Would Theo's contract as GM allow him to not be the GM? Obviously you can't make him sell popcorn on the contract. What are the limitations on what you can assign him to do?

 

I'm not saying I think giving up McNutt is right or fair, or whatever, but I'm saying that, it might be the price to get the deal done because of the leverage they have (and I find it ridiculous that some folks are suggesting that McNutt wouldn't be a top 8 prospect in the Sox system, saw that somewhere, I think he should get ranked ahead of Matt Barnes, who most have in the top 8), and if that's the case, then you negotiate to get a better return from our side.

 

I don't think, despite comments in this thread suggesting otherwise, that the Cubs can realistically walk away from Theo right now unless the Red Sox demands were completely ridiculous, and well, I like McNutt a lot, but I don't think McNutt should be completely untouchable in such a deal.

 

But that's me.

 

I cannot comprehend how the Red Sox who:

 

-Granted permission for the interview

-Have leaked that they've promoted a new GM

-Will owe an employee they don't want $6.5M

-Have nothing to gain by keeping Theo

 

have the leverage in this situation.

[Pushfrog98]

The market efficiency of keeping pitchers healthy is so complex that the general idea of it doesn't mean much. Whatever team has the resources to sink in the research required to gain an advantage here are the type that aren't worried about what other teams are doing.

 

Limiting pitch counts and refining mechanics is outdated, its time for cyberkinetic implants IMO.

http://www.neo-geo.com/snk/screenshots/2020%20super%20baseball2.gif

[minnesotacubsfan]

dont know if it was posted and I'm too lazy to look, but a deal by Wednesday (?):

 

http://www.chicagonow.com/cubs-den/2011/10/report-boston-asking-for-trey-mcnutt/

[Butterscup1679666578]

The market efficiency of keeping pitchers healthy is so complex that the general idea of it doesn't mean much. Whatever team has the resources to sink in the research required to gain an advantage here are the type that aren't worried about what other teams are doing.

 

Limiting pitch counts and refining mechanics is outdated, its time for cyberkinetic implants IMO.

http://www.neo-geo.com/snk/screenshots/2020%20super%20baseball2.gif

 

i played the [expletive] out of that game growing up and still play it time to time on an emulator

[KingCubsFan]

Those Plan B's aren't realistic at this point though. Our Plan B would basically be Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes, which would be a huge letdown from Epstein. Both sides need to get this done.

 

Why not? If they were ever realistic, nothing has changed that would make them less realistic than they were now. And even then, the amount of outcry at hiring Hahn, or Byrnes, or even Cherington(which would be a hilarious F U move to Boston) would be minimal because most fans don't care about GMs and spinning Boston as greedy jerks is too easy.

Even the casual baseball fan knows Theo Epstein. He's one of a handful of executives with the type of name recognition that will get a fanbase outside of nsbb excited. As easy as it is to spin Boston as greedy, it's just as easy to portray the Cubs as the "typical Cubs," blowing it in extraordinary fashion because they're cheap. From a casual fan's perspective, are they really going to accept the fact that the Cubs just lost a guy who broke the Red Sox "curse" because they refused to give up a pitcher who won 4 games last year and had an ERA of 4.55 in AA and an outfielder who strikes out all the time? Sure, we realize the value of those players, but most fans don't.

 

As for the other candidates, Beane never was and never will be realistic. He's not leaving and doesn't seem to particularly care much about baseball anymore. He probably runs the A's like a game of Baseball Mogul these days in between Premier League matches. And, while I don't know Cashman or Friedman personally, I find it hard to believe they would jump at the chance to be someone's second choice given their stature in baseball.

[Guest]

Those Plan B's aren't realistic at this point though. Our Plan B would basically be Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes, which would be a huge letdown from Epstein. Both sides need to get this done.

 

Why not? If they were ever realistic, nothing has changed that would make them less realistic than they were now. And even then, the amount of outcry at hiring Hahn, or Byrnes, or even Cherington(which would be a hilarious F U move to Boston) would be minimal because most fans don't care about GMs and spinning Boston as greedy jerks is too easy.

Even the casual baseball fan knows Theo Epstein. He's one of a handful of executives with the type of name recognition that will get a fanbase outside of nsbb excited. As easy as it is to spin Boston as greedy, it's just as easy to portray the Cubs as the "typical Cubs," blowing it in extraordinary fashion because they're cheap. From a casual fan's perspective, are they really going to accept the fact that the Cubs just lost a guy who broke the Red Sox "curse" because they refused to give up a pitcher who won 4 games last year and had an ERA of 4.55 in AA and an outfielder who strikes out all the time? Sure, we realize the value of those players, but most fans don't.

 

As for the other candidates, Beane never was and never will be realistic. He's not leaving and doesn't seem to particularly care much about baseball anymore. He probably runs the A's like a game of Baseball Mogul these days in between Premier League matches. And, while I don't know Cashman or Friedman personally, I find it hard to believe they would jump at the chance to be someone's second choice given their stature in baseball.

After the past 10 years of spending, how could anyone possibly paint the Cubs as being cheap?

 

Incompetent? Totally different story.

[Guest]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

 

Anyway, I'm not into the macho I have to win [expletive]. If I'm Ricketts and I believe I have the man I want, I make the deal. To me, that's all this boils down to. I must win. Guess what? No matter who the Cubs give up (If what is written is true the Cubs aren't losing anyone on the 40 man roster). Boston has already lost. They have imploded, the cat's out of the bag, Theo isn't coming back and guys like McNutt get drafted every year.

 

Do the Cubs have to give up McNutt, no. They don't have to give up anyone, but if they want Theo they have to give up something of value.

 

A lot of this talk is just silly, IMO. Supposedly talks are amicable and business like.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

My two year old has threatened to hold his breath until he dies *and* hate me forever if he does not receive additional cookies at snack time. I don't want him to die or hate me forever, so clearly he has the leverage on me.

 

About meathead fan reaction, Ricketts gives as many metaphorical poops as Truffle does real ones. If Ricketts cared about that stuff, Hendry would have been fired two years ago, Sandberg would be the manager and Soriano would be released.

[KingCubsFan]

My two year old has threatened to hold his breath until he dies *and* hate me forever if he does not receive additional cookies at snack time. I don't want him to die or hate me forever, so clearly he has the leverage on me.

 

About meathead fan reaction, Ricketts gives as many metaphorical poops as Truffle does real ones. If Ricketts cared about that stuff, Hendry would have been fired two years ago, Sandberg would be the manager and Soriano would be released.

You're right, he doesn't care about selling season tickets.

[Guest]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

How do I put this delicately...

 

 

 

 

drawing a blank.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

My two year old has threatened to hold his breath until he dies *and* hate me forever if he does not receive additional cookies at snack time. I don't want him to die or hate me forever, so clearly he has the leverage on me.

 

About meathead fan reaction, Ricketts gives as many metaphorical poops as Truffle does real ones. If Ricketts cared about that stuff, Hendry would have been fired two years ago, Sandberg would be the manager and Soriano would be released.

You're right, he doesn't care about selling season tickets.

 

He cares about doing what creates the most wins in the long-term, in his estimation. Because in the long run, that's the only thing that sells season tickets.

[davearm2]

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather not move McNutt, but the Cubs realistically can't go to Plan B anymore considering everyone knows how far this went, and the Red Sox can't realistically have Theo around, so both sides have to give some and find a balance. Neither side is going to play hard-ball and win outright here. I hope we don't give up McNutt, but I'm not against it in the right deal.

 

The Cubs' downside is one that isn't really palpable and can be managed. They hire PR people for a reason, and "we really wanted Theo, but they were being crazy about it. I mean, have you seen what's happening over there?" practically writes itself. Plus, there's plenty of people who would be equally excited if plan B was a Friedman, Beane, or Cashman. On the other side, the Red Sox downside is both physical(millions of dollars) and PR-related(how will people come here if we hold them hostage?). There's a lot more reason to come down on the Red Sox side, especially since the re-tweeted story of the day is using our best pitching prospect as the anchor for where the negotiations are hinged.

I don't believe Plan B is Friedman, Beane or Cashman. I think Plan B is someone that's never been a GM before (or perhaps Josh Byrnes).

 

For the Cubs, it's not so much an issue of PR. It's an issue of making the decision that best sets your franchise up for sustained, longterm success. They think Epstein is the guy for the job.

 

So the pertinent question is: does keeping Trey McNutt (or whomever) and going with the second choice better position the organization for the future, or does giving up McNutt and getting Epstein?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

So the pertinent question is: does keeping Trey McNutt (or whomever) and going with the second choice better position the organization for the future, or does giving up McNutt and getting Epstein?

 

McNutt. The marginal value of Epstein over the other candidates is slim.

 

As much fun as it is to mark out over Epstein, that's all it is. Silly fan fun. The important thing happened when Ricketts decided to hire an Epstein-style GM, not that he specifically got the big name.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Hairyducked Idiot

[Rob]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

How do I put this delicately...

 

 

 

 

drawing a blank.

 

That's because there's no delicate way to say how stupid that opinion is.

[Guest]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

How do I put this delicately...

 

 

 

 

drawing a blank.

Put it any way you want. I don't have to win. I just posted that. Just don't violate your own rules like you just did.

 

If you think McNutt or any minor leaguer is more important to the Cubs than Theo, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs? It doesn't matter what is going on in Boston. The Cubs are either going to get him or they are not.

 

Some people act like asking for compensation is beyond the bounds of sanity. It's not.