09/21 Milwaukee (Wolf) @ CUBS (Garza) 1:20 CDT, WGN TV

[squally1313]

Garza and Castro give me hope. Fielder or Pujols would give me a lot more.

[Fred Hornkohl]

CUBS with 3.63 P/PA today.... slightly under league average.

 

 

CUBS are 38-42 when they average 3.7 P/PA or less...... 30-44 when they don't

 

 

 

 

Go CUBS !!

[Sammy Sofa]

I've never heard of a pitcher worried about giving up a player's 200th hit.

Never heard of a rival not wanting to give up a milestone? It's not a big deal and I only point it out because I know there are Brewer fans reading this right now.

 

YOU SHOW 'EM.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'll bet they did that on purpose, too.

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, that's pretty fitting.

[Sammy Sofa]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Wrigley_Field_sign_Cubs_Win_2003-10-03.jpg

[Fred Hornkohl]

CUBS WIN !! CUBS WIN !! CUBS WIN !!

 

 

:yahoo: :clapping: \:D/ :good: \:D/ :clapping: :yahoo:

 

 

http://njsr.org/pics/albums/userpics/10036/Cubs%20W%20Flag.jpg

[Sammy Sofa]

I will return to a joyous Wrigley next year.

[bukie]

It makes perfect sense that Garza's two highest PC outings have been the last two he's pitched, since they've been so crucial to the Cubs scrambling to avoid 90 losses.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Can you believe this lousy team still drew 3 million fans ????

 

                 2011          2010          2009          2008          2007          2006          2005
# Dates             81            81            81            81            81            81            81
Attendance     3017963       3062973       3168859       3301200       3252862       3123221       3139322
Capacity         41210         41210         41210         41210         41118         41118         41118
% Capacity      0.9041        0.9176        0.9493        0.9890        0.9767        0.9377        0.9426
Average          37259         37814         39122         40756         40159         38558         38757
High             42374         41406         41619         41730         41909         41698         40488
Low              26292         29538         33299         37812         32126         27105         36791
Std Dev         3527.1        2902.5        1804.6         834.7        1774.8        2594.7         739.9
Sellouts            12             5            10            30            24             5             0

 

 

less than 30000      2
30001 - 31000        3
31001 - 32000        3
32001 - 33000        3
33001 - 34000        1
34001 - 35000        4
35001 - 36000        9
36001 - 37000        9
37001 - 38000       10
38001 - 39000        9
39001 - 40000        9
40001 - 41000        6
41001 - 42000        6
more than 42000      7

[SouthSideRyan]

I've never heard of a pitcher worried about giving up a player's 200th hit.

Never heard of a rival not wanting to give up a milestone? It's not a big deal and I only point it out because I know there are Brewer fans reading this right now.

 

A meaningless milestone that nobody will remember a year from now? No, I have not.

[jersey cubs fan]

I've never heard of a pitcher worried about giving up a player's 200th hit.

Never heard of a rival not wanting to give up a milestone? It's not a big deal and I only point it out because I know there are Brewer fans reading this right now.

 

A meaningless milestone that nobody will remember a year from now? No, I have not.

 

Yeah, I've heard of pitchers not wanting to give up record setting HR, but not 200th hit.

[bukie]

I've never heard of a pitcher worried about giving up a player's 200th hit.

Never heard of a rival not wanting to give up a milestone? It's not a big deal and I only point it out because I know there are Brewer fans reading this right now.

 

A meaningless milestone that nobody will remember a year from now? No, I have not.

It reminds me of that time in 1998 where the Cubs did everything in their power to prevent McGwire from breaking 61 HRs first.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

It makes perfect sense that Garza's two highest PC outings have been the last two he's pitched, since they've been so crucial to the Cubs scrambling to avoid 90 losses.

 

I bet his arm falls off this winter. Quade rode him like a horse this September.

 

Somebody go to BCB and post Matt Garza's season line. Tell them SenorGato is only wrong sometimes, and he knows pitching. Garza is no Paul Wilson.

[TruffleShuffle]

It makes perfect sense that Garza's two highest PC outings have been the last two he's pitched, since they've been so crucial to the Cubs scrambling to avoid 90 losses.

 

I bet his arm falls off this winter. Quade rode him like a horse this September.

 

Somebody go to BCB and post Matt Garza's season line. Tell them SenorGato is only wrong sometimes, and he knows pitching. Garza is no Paul Wilson.

 

i'm really enjoying your davearmesque crusade against all things logical.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

i'm really enjoying your davearmesque crusade against all things logical.

 

You'd be making a far more logical point if you could prove that these two whole starts have actually increased his chance for injury in any significant way. Hell, at least prove it negatively affects him in the long run in some fashion. Last start didn't seem to bother him too much out there today.

 

Number of deadly 120+ pitch starts for Garza in 2011: 2. *Takes off glasses dramatically* My god.

[bukie]

i'm really enjoying your davearmesque crusade against all things logical.

 

You'd be making a far more logical point if you could prove that these two whole starts have actually increased his chance for injury in any significant way. Last start didn't seem to bother him too much out there today.

Every pitcher's arm has a finite amount of use in it. There's a fine, subjective line between regular use and overuse, and there's no need at this point to even toe the line. Even weirder that they've avoided 120 pitch starts the entire year, and then use him for two in a row when rosters are big enough to have even less of an excuse for it.

 

But yes, your sample size of one start is conclusive proof in your favor.

[XZero771679666304]

i'm really enjoying your davearmesque crusade against all things logical.

 

You'd be making a far more logical point if you could prove that these two whole starts have actually increased his chance for injury in any significant way. Hell, at least prove it negatively affects him in the long run in some fashion. Last start didn't seem to bother him too much out there today.

 

 

You couldn't "prove" it, even if his arm did fall off. And Mark Prior didn't show ill effects of throwing long strings of 120+ pitch games while he was in the midst of them, either. It's about being prudent with the long term in mind, and knowing when discretion is the better part of valor.

 

There is zero reason (zero good reasons, anyway) for any of the Cubs pitchers to be racking up high pitch counts at this point.

[bukie]

Plus, it's not as if the last 15 years of team history was littered with pitcher arm injuries to their most promising pitchers due largely to overuse.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Every pitcher's arm has a finite amount of use in it. There's a fine, subjective line between regular use and overuse, and there's no need at this point to even toe the line. Even weirder that they've avoided 120 pitch starts the entire year, and then use him for two in a row when rosters are big enough to have even less of an excuse for it.

 

But yes, your sample size of one start is conclusive proof in your favor.

 

And by your estimation Garza was pushed to his absolute limits in these two starts? Gimme a break...What's the finite number? When is it fine to throw 120 pitches then? How many bullets does Garza now have for the rest of his career after these two devastating starts? Is the 5 months he'll have in the winter too little time to recover from these starts? Is this just a matter of finding something to complain about because the team's bad and therefore even the good games have to have something to complain about?

 

Have you factored in Garza's minimal at best injury history? Have you factored in that he's 27 with 4+ full major league seasons under his belt, and not some 22 year old rookie? Have you factored in that these are his ONLY TWO starts where his body was pushed to such insurmountable limits this year? Have you factored in that he'll be making 2 less starts than his past two years this year and that he won't even touch 200 IP? Or that the two starts came in September, when his arm is loose and limber, rather than April/May when he's just getting into the swing of things? Is this anything but a minor complaint based on the very vague idea that 120+ pitches = bad unless special, unnamed conditions are met? Why are they obligated to toe some invisible line over some vague fear when they have far more data on Garza's health and conditioning than all of us combined here?

Edited September 22, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[coldsteel]

Wow, they keep trying to brush LaHair off the plate. Almost clipped him today. But LaHair cut the division champs down to size.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Plus, it's not as if the last 15 years of team history was littered with pitcher arm injuries to their most promising pitchers due largely to overuse.

 

Yeah, I figured this is where the fear came from, hence why I don't buy that there's any significant logic behind the complaints.

 

Now lets realize that Matt Garza isn't Mark Prior or Kerry Wood, both who failed for far more reasons than overuse. Wood never wanted to evolve as a SP, and faced the consequences of throwing all two of his pitches as hard as he could all the time. Prior, on top of being 5 years younger and only slightly above rookie status than Garza when he was worked like he was, also happened to collide with a player that year and then get hit with a line drive in the elbow the next year. It was a clusterf of bad things that shouldn't happen to pitchers. Believe it or not, there are pitchers out there who managed to survive two whole starts of 120+ pitches late in the season in their athletic primes.

 

Oh and just to be a dick on Prior...there was always the s-word. His trainer/coach Tom House studied the stuff, and knew it as well as most in baseball probably.

Edited September 22, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[Little Slide Rooter]

Also, why is Garza hitting Quade?

 

read it as this. Thought things were getting interesting.

[bukie]

Plus, it's not as if the last 15 years of team history was littered with pitcher arm injuries to their most promising pitchers due largely to overuse.

 

Yeah, I figured this is where the fear came from, hence why I don't buy that there's any significant logic behind the complaints.

 

Now lets realize that Matt Garza isn't Mark Prior or Kerry Wood, both who failed for far more reasons than overuse. Wood never wanted to evolve as a SP, and faced the consequences of throwing all two of his pitches as hard as he could all the time. Prior, on top of being 5 years younger and only slightly above rookie status than Garza when he was worked like he was, also happened to collide with a player that year and then get hit with a line drive in the elbow the next year. It was a clusterf of bad things that shouldn't happen to pitchers. Believe it or not, there are pitchers out there who managed to survive two whole starts of 120+ pitches late in the season in their athletic primes.

 

Maybe I'm just used to being coddled by Cubs management, then. Maybe throwing 120+ pitches in September isn't a rare thing, and teams do it all the time. Let's check...

 

To this point, there have been 572 starts among all MLB teams (286 games, two teams each game). Of those 572 starts, a pitcher has gone over 120 pitches...just 8 times. 1.35% of the starts.

 

Huh, well at least it's not just the Cubs then. Who else went over 120 pitches?

- James Shields did, twice. The Rays are pushing hard for a playoff spot, though, so it's a little sensible.

- Tim Lincecum did once and Madison Bumgarner did once. Again, pushing hard for a playoff spot.

 

The other 4? Twice by Dempster, and twice by Garza.

 

So maybe the other, what, 27 teams are just coddling their pitchers. You know, so they'll get maximum value out of them when needed.

 

EDIT: In the name of full disclosure, if I set the limit at 120 instead of 121+, there are 3 additional starts: Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee and Bud Norris. So...yeah, 11 of 572 starts, with only 2 teams doing it that aren't in playoff contention.

Edited September 22, 2011 by bukie

[bukie]

Every pitcher's arm has a finite amount of use in it. There's a fine, subjective line between regular use and overuse, and there's no need at this point to even toe the line. Even weirder that they've avoided 120 pitch starts the entire year, and then use him for two in a row when rosters are big enough to have even less of an excuse for it.

 

But yes, your sample size of one start is conclusive proof in your favor.

 

And by your estimation Garza was pushed to his absolute limits in these two starts? Gimme a break...What's the finite number? When is it fine to throw 120 pitches then? How many bullets does Garza now have for the rest of his career after these two devastating starts? Is the 5 months he'll have in the winter too little time to recover from these starts? Is this just a matter of finding something to complain about because the team's bad and therefore even the good games have to have something to complain about?

 

Have you factored in Garza's minimal at best injury history? Have you factored in that he's 27 with 4+ full major league seasons under his belt, and not some 22 year old rookie? Have you factored in that these are his ONLY TWO starts where his body was pushed to such insurmountable limits this year? Have you factored in that he'll be making 2 less starts than his past two years this year and that he won't even touch 200 IP? Or that the two starts came in September, when his arm is loose and limber, rather than April/May when he's just getting into the swing of things? Is this anything but a minor complaint based on the very vague idea that 120+ pitches = bad unless special, unnamed conditions are met? Why are they obligated to toe some invisible line over some vague fear when they have far more data on Garza's health and conditioning than all of us combined here?

 

Yeah, it's not like Garza has spent any time on the DL this year for arm trouble.