09/21 Milwaukee (Wolf) @ CUBS (Garza) 1:20 CDT, WGN TV

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Maybe I'm just used to being coddled by Cubs management, then. Maybe throwing 120+ pitches in September isn't a rare thing, and teams do it all the time. Let's check...

 

To this point, there have been 572 starts among all MLB teams (286 games, two teams each game). Of those 572 starts, a pitcher has gone over 120 pitches...just 8 times.

 

Huh, well at least it's not just the Cubs then. Who else went over 120 pitches?

- James Shields did, twice. The Rays are pushing hard for a playoff spot, though, so it's a little sensible.

- Tim Lincecum did once and Madison Bumgarner did once. Again, pushing hard for a playoff spot.

 

The other 4? Twice by Dempster, and twice by Garza.

 

So maybe the other, what, 27 teams are just coddling their pitchers. You know, so they'll get maximum value out of them when needed.

 

What, exactly, is the significance of this? Now the new logic isn't that he's suddenly likely to get injured, but that other teams aren't doing it so the Cubs should toe this arbitrary, invisible line instead?

 

Anyway fact check time:

 

Justin Verlander has done it 8 times this year alone. This is nothing new for Verlander, as he did it 9 times last year for a .500 Tigers team (including 6 of his last 7 starts).

 

Felix Hernandez has done it 5 times this year.

 

Gallardo has done it once in 2011.

 

CC Sabathia has done it many times in his career and twice this year. He's been to the DL 0 times IIRC.

 

I can probably keep going...but I think my point has been made. This is what good pitchers do, because they are good enough to do it.

 

Garza will survive. Hell, more than likely he'll continue to thrive here as a pitcher. PROBABILITY WILLING he will find a way to move on from these career destroyers.

Edited September 22, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Yeah, it's not like Garza has spent any time on the DL this year for arm trouble.

 

You mean that super serious elbow twinge that affected nothing after he came back? Yeah, why should I still be worrying about that? Did it suddenly rise to significance this September because of these two starts?

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, it's always "well, THIS one isn't one time too many" to people like you, isn't it? They do it twice, well hell, three couldn't be that bad, right? Four times? Man, five is only once more. Eight times? Jeez, ten is only two more than that!

[TruffleShuffle]

we've yet for KKG to tell us why a guy should be throwing 120+ pitches in back to back meaningless games. the second occasion being a game in which he threw his last 20+ pitches in the 9th inning, when the cubs had a 99.7% chance of winning the game.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Yeah, it's always "well, THIS one isn't one time too many" to people like you, isn't it? They do it twice, well hell, three couldn't be that bad, right? Four times? Man, five is only once more. Eight times? Jeez, ten is only two more than that!

 

MAYBE I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE THROWN 120+ IN EVEWRY STARTZ?!!?!?

 

Maybe you missed it but Garza's season is over (unless there's one more start left). Surprisingly enough, it's not due to a career ending injury after these overwhelming two starts.

[Sammy Sofa]

Nice dodge. Just admit that you won't answer what Truffle pointed out, nor do you have any clue what the breaking point is with any pitcher. We're fans of a team that has had serious issues with this over the last decade, so why should we just shrug it off when we see it rearing its head yet again in meaningless games with a pitcher who needs to play a key role going forward? Like I said, it's always "just" whatever number of games with someone like you. If it wasn't two it would "just" be five, or eight, or ten and on and on and on. You try to be a smartass with the hyperbole, but it's the the only real outcome for this corner you've backed yourself into. If you truly believe this garbage, then no, I don't think you'd have a problem with him being overused every game because you'd always come up with an excuse to justify it.

[bukie]

Maybe I'm just used to being coddled by Cubs management, then. Maybe throwing 120+ pitches in September isn't a rare thing, and teams do it all the time. Let's check...

 

To this point, there have been 572 starts among all MLB teams (286 games, two teams each game). Of those 572 starts, a pitcher has gone over 120 pitches...just 8 times.

 

Huh, well at least it's not just the Cubs then. Who else went over 120 pitches?

- James Shields did, twice. The Rays are pushing hard for a playoff spot, though, so it's a little sensible.

- Tim Lincecum did once and Madison Bumgarner did once. Again, pushing hard for a playoff spot.

 

The other 4? Twice by Dempster, and twice by Garza.

 

So maybe the other, what, 27 teams are just coddling their pitchers. You know, so they'll get maximum value out of them when needed.

 

What, exactly, is the significance of this? Now the new logic isn't that he's suddenly likely to get injured, but that other teams aren't doing it so the Cubs should toe this arbitrary, invisible line instead?

 

Anyway fact check time:

 

Justin Verlander has done it 8 times this year alone. This is nothing new for Verlander, as he did it 9 times last year for a .500 Tigers team (including 6 of his last 7 starts).

 

Felix Hernandez has done it 5 times this year.

 

Gallardo has done it once in 2011.

 

CC Sabathia has done it many times in his career and twice this year. He's been to the DL 0 times IIRC.

 

I can probably keep going...but I think my point has been made. This is what good pitchers do, because they are good enough to do it.

 

Garza will survive. Hell, more than likely he'll continue to thrive here as a pitcher. PROBABILITY WILLING he will find a way to move on from these career destroyers.

Your point is in ignorance. You completely ignored everything I said in convenience, and then made a completely different point, ignoring any and all relevance. There's no point in disputing anything else with you if you'll continue to act in ignorance. Based on your post history, the probability of this is significantly higher than that of a team putting a pitcher in a high risk situation without a high reward possibility.

 

I'll explain this once more to see if you'll catch on:

- All pitchers have a finite amount of pitching in them.

- Pitchers are huge investments to teams, especially good ones (teams AND pitchers, we're talking here).

- Protecting the investment to maximize reward is in ALL teams' best interest.

- Pitching arms are most vulnerable after extended use.

- This is most empirically notable at the end of a long pitching season and in extended outings.

- These are also the situations that teams can most objectively control with the use of pitch counts.

- 27 teams decided through research and caution that 120 pitch outings in September are that objective threshold.

- 2 other teams decided that the potential reward (a playoff berth) was worth the additional risk in the Giants and Rays.

- One team decided to do their own thing and work their pitchers the hardest at the end of the season, after the pitching arms have gotten the most use, the reward being 4th place and avoiding 90 losses.

- That is, unfortunately, the team I root for, so I'd kind of like it to not happen.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

we've yet for KKG to tell us why a guy should be throwing 120+ pitches in back to back meaningless games. the second occasion being a game in which he threw his last 20+ pitches in the 9th inning, when the cubs had a 99.7% chance of winning the game.

 

1. We've also yet to hear any truly logical reason why these 120+ pitches will hurt him or even affect him at all. I'm talking Garza the individual, not Mark Prior, not Kerry Wood, not the countless pitchers that aren't Matt Garza who I assume were devastated by a couple of 120+ pitch starts (by + I mean less than 125 both times).

 

2. I know no one is watching the games so maybe this was missed, but Garza threw/pitched really, really well in those two career killing starts. He pitched even better today than he did the last time out, despite the great scare his last start caused. He was still hitting 95 in the 9th, and ended the game on a nasty high 70's curveball. His arm remained attached.

 

And again, you call these games meaningless. They are meaningless to you and I. To Matt Garza and the Cubs this is not meaningless, this is their job/career. I know that like any pitcher he's a delicate flower with the strength and durability of a 12 year old girl, but I insist that Matt Garza will survive and continue to thrive with the Cubs.

Edited September 22, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Nice dodge. Just admit that you won't answer what Truffle pointed out, nor do you have any clue what the breaking point is with any pitcher. We're fans of a team that has had serious issues with this over the last decade, so why should we just shrug it off when we see it rearing its head yet again in meaningless games with a pitcher who needs to play a key role going forward? Like I said, it's always "just" whatever number of games with someone like you. If it wasn't two it would "just" be five, or eight, or ten and on and on and on. You try to be a smartass with the hyperbole, but it's the the only real outcome for this corner you've backed yourself into. If you truly believe this garbage, then no, I don't think you'd have a problem with him being overused every game because you'd always come up with an excuse to justify it.

 

I did.

 

Now can we admit that no one will answer any one of the questions I asked? At least can you admit that YOU have no clue what the breaking point is with any pitcher?

[Sammy Sofa]

Who the hell were you before the name change? I feel like I'm missing some classic gold.

 

And holy [expletive] [expletive]; of course nobody knows what the breaking point is with each pitcher. THAT'S THE [expletive] POINT YOU BIZARRELY CANNOT GRASP.

[Guest]

Garza reached 120 pitches in those two outings, but his pitches per inning were really low, and he was on cruise control for the vast majority of both of those starts. Given the circumstances, I'd say that the benefit of trying to ensure his arm is stretched enough to handle a full 200 IP next year is probably worth the minimal risk of hitting that pitch count in those two specific situations. At the very least, it's not nearly as reckless as it's portrayed here.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Who the hell were you before the name change? I feel like I'm missing some classic gold.

 

And holy [expletive] [expletive]; of course nobody knows what the breaking point is with each pitcher. THAT'S THE [expletive] POINT YOU BIZARRELY CANNOT GRASP.

 

You're not. WeGotWood98.

 

How am I not grasping the point? Who's the one bitching and throwing the fit about a perfectly healthy 27 year old veteran pitcher throwing 123 pitches twice here? This can't be serious....but it is. The problem with your point is that the best way to describe it is limp. Garza will pitch again, despite the enormous odds. He'll most likely do it very, very well like he did this year and the years before that (where he also had individual starts that topped 120 pitches).

Edited September 22, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[Sammy Sofa]

Who the hell were you before the name change? I feel like I'm missing some classic gold.

 

And holy [expletive] [expletive]; of course nobody knows what the breaking point is with each pitcher. THAT'S THE [expletive] POINT YOU BIZARRELY CANNOT GRASP.

 

You're not. WeGotWood98.

 

How am I not grasping the point? Who's the one bitching about a perfectly healthy pitcher throwing 123 pitches twice here? This can't be serious....but it is.

 

So what if it was five times? Six? Ten? How many is too many for you?

[bukie]

Garza reached 120 pitches in those two outings, but his pitches per inning were really low, and he was on cruise control for the vast majority of both of those starts. Given the circumstances, I'd say that the benefit of trying to ensure his arm is stretched enough to handle a full 200 IP next year is probably worth the minimal risk of hitting that pitch count in those two specific situations. At the very least, it's not nearly as reckless as it's portrayed here.

Unless Matt Garza and Ryan Dempster are unique cases among the 150 or so starters in baseball that somehow need more work at the end of the season than they had the rest of it, then the Cubs are simply doing something with their starters that no other team not in contention is doing. Of course it's not a guarantee that their arms fall off, and nobody's even implying that. It's just totally needless at a time in the year where every team has 3-4 extra pitchers on the roster, and there's basically no reward except a complete game.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

So what if it was five times? Six? Ten? How many is too many for you?

 

I can tell you with full confidence that the number is not 2. Maybe if you saw diminished mechanics or stuff...but we didn't and won't.

 

You know why we won't? Because he has 5 months to recover from these potential career destroyers.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Unless Matt Garza and Ryan Dempster are unique cases among the 150 or so starters in baseball that somehow need more work at the end of the season than they had the rest of it, then the Cubs are simply doing something with their starters that no other team not in contention is doing. Of course it's not a guarantee that their arms fall off, and nobody's even implying that. It's just totally needless at a time in the year where every team has 3-4 extra pitchers on the roster, and there's basically no reward except a complete game.

 

And guess what...There is literally no significance to that that you have showed me. None of you have. I garaun-[expletive]-tee that those two will take the mound just fine next season. Hell, Dempster probably has another start this year, maybe. If he does, I predict that he'll not only make it but his arm will survive too.

 

Couple other things:

 

The younger Felix Hernandez has done this 5-6 times this year, as I pointed out. He still lives.

 

There were alot more than 8 120+ pitch starts this season. Just wanted to point that out again.

Edited September 22, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[Sammy Sofa]

So what if it was five times? Six? Ten? How many is too many for you?

 

I can tell you with full confidence that the number is not 2. Maybe if you saw diminished mechanics or stuff...but we didn't and won't.

 

You know why we won't? Because he has 5 months to recover from these potential career destroyers.

 

Nobody here is saying that two is the breaking point, so quit being so pathetically obtuse and melodramatic. The complaint is that it's indicative of a larger problematic philosophies that have plagued this organization for too long now. If two is fine with them when it doesn't matter, hey, why not three? Why not five? Why not eight? How many times do I have to repeat this?

[Sammy Sofa]

Unless Matt Garza and Ryan Dempster are unique cases among the 150 or so starters in baseball that somehow need more work at the end of the season than they had the rest of it, then the Cubs are simply doing something with their starters that no other team not in contention is doing. Of course it's not a guarantee that their arms fall off, and nobody's even implying that. It's just totally needless at a time in the year where every team has 3-4 extra pitchers on the roster, and there's basically no reward except a complete game.

 

And guess what...There is literally no significance to that that you have showed me. None of you have. I garaun-[expletive]-tee that those two will take the mound just fine next season. Hell, Dempster probably has another start this year, maybe. If he does, I predict that he'll not only make it but his arm will survive too.

 

So you're somehow guaranteeing that neither Dempster or Garze will be on the DL at all next season? Why would you say something so stupid?

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

So you're somehow guaranteeing that neither Dempster or Garze will be on the DL at all next season? Why would you say something so stupid?

 

That's more words than I said. They could kick a wall or something. I'm not even slightly worried about either of their arms right now.

 

I don't think saying that is any more stupid than watching a pitcher dominate only to bitch about him throwing slightly more than 120 pitches.

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, that's the problem.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

So what if it was five times? Six? Ten? How many is too many for you?

 

I can tell you with full confidence that the number is not 2. Maybe if you saw diminished mechanics or stuff...but we didn't and won't.

 

You know why we won't? Because he has 5 months to recover from these potential career destroyers.

 

Nobody here is saying that two is the breaking point, so quit being so pathetically obtuse and melodramatic. The complaint is that it's indicative of a larger problematic philosophies that have plagued this organization for too long now. If two is fine with them when it doesn't matter, hey, why not three? Why not five? Why not eight? How many times do I have to repeat this?

 

Then why in the [expletive] are we having this discussion?

 

Obtuse and melodramatic are two perfect words to describe the basis of your argument. I'll throw them in with limp. Repeat what you want all day...It's not going to change the actual number from 2 to whatever it is you want to believe I'm fine with.

 

Well, that's the problem.

 

Notice how none of your counterarguments revolve around on anything but calling what I'm saying dumb. Yet, I'm the one being obtuse and melodramatic....Gold indeed.

Edited September 22, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[Guest]

Garza reached 120 pitches in those two outings, but his pitches per inning were really low, and he was on cruise control for the vast majority of both of those starts. Given the circumstances, I'd say that the benefit of trying to ensure his arm is stretched enough to handle a full 200 IP next year is probably worth the minimal risk of hitting that pitch count in those two specific situations. At the very least, it's not nearly as reckless as it's portrayed here.

Unless Matt Garza and Ryan Dempster are unique cases among the 150 or so starters in baseball that somehow need more work at the end of the season than they had the rest of it, then the Cubs are simply doing something with their starters that no other team not in contention is doing. Of course it's not a guarantee that their arms fall off, and nobody's even implying that. It's just totally needless at a time in the year where every team has 3-4 extra pitchers on the roster, and there's basically no reward except a complete game.

 

How many of those 150 starts were at 100 pitches or less through 8 innings? I'm not going to tell you Dempster should have been extended, but I don't see a whole lot of risk with letting Garza finish two very strong performances where he hasn't been laboring.

[Sammy Sofa]

So what if it was five times? Six? Ten? How many is too many for you?

 

I can tell you with full confidence that the number is not 2. Maybe if you saw diminished mechanics or stuff...but we didn't and won't.

 

You know why we won't? Because he has 5 months to recover from these potential career destroyers.

 

Nobody here is saying that two is the breaking point, so quit being so pathetically obtuse and melodramatic. The complaint is that it's indicative of a larger problematic philosophies that have plagued this organization for too long now. If two is fine with them when it doesn't matter, hey, why not three? Why not five? Why not eight? How many times do I have to repeat this?

 

Then why in the [expletive] are we having this discussion?

 

Obtuse and melodramatic are two perfect words to describe the basis of your argument. I'll throw them in with limp. Repeat what you want all day...It's not going to change the actual number from 2 to whatever it is you want to believe I'm fine with.

 

Because you decided that people were declaring that Garza was going to be injured based on today's pitching load, or the two times he's gone over 120 pitches this year. It's an invention from inside of your own brain that twisted what was actually being said. A fine strawman, really. Well spun.

[Sammy Sofa]

Garza reached 120 pitches in those two outings, but his pitches per inning were really low, and he was on cruise control for the vast majority of both of those starts. Given the circumstances, I'd say that the benefit of trying to ensure his arm is stretched enough to handle a full 200 IP next year is probably worth the minimal risk of hitting that pitch count in those two specific situations. At the very least, it's not nearly as reckless as it's portrayed here.

Unless Matt Garza and Ryan Dempster are unique cases among the 150 or so starters in baseball that somehow need more work at the end of the season than they had the rest of it, then the Cubs are simply doing something with their starters that no other team not in contention is doing. Of course it's not a guarantee that their arms fall off, and nobody's even implying that. It's just totally needless at a time in the year where every team has 3-4 extra pitchers on the roster, and there's basically no reward except a complete game.

 

How many of those 150 starts were at 100 pitches or less through 8 innings? I'm not going to tell you Dempster should have been extended, but I don't see a whole lot of risk with letting Garza finish two very strong performances where he hasn't been laboring.

 

It's commentary on repetition of a frustrating organizational philosophy as opposed to a specific condemnation of today's game as some kind of breaking point.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

How many of those 150 starts were at 100 pitches or less through 8 innings? I'm not going to tell you Dempster should have been extended, but I don't see a whole lot of risk with letting Garza finish two very strong performances where he hasn't been laboring.

 

He wasn't even close to laboring. I recorded the game and am watching it right now. Guy was crisp the whole time. His changeup was on, the fastball was moving and hitting 95 consistently and easily...His stuff has improved all around this year.

 

It's commentary on repetition of a frustrating organizational philosophy as opposed to a specific condemnation of today's game as some kind of breaking point.

 

So now it's organizational philosophy...the Cubs have what...4 120+ pitch starts all year? All in September, all from two proven veterans who are also their best pitchers.

 

Get over Prior/Wood dude, because I have 0 doubts that's where most of this stuff is coming from. I miss that kind of talent too. Life moves on, and far more than overuse played into what happened there.