Quade goes off on Castro, Barney

[davearm2]

And what do we think about Soto blocking the plate like he did in the 9th inning on Tuesday?

 

Should he have gotten out of the way and let that run score? Lots of risk involved in that play. Ask Buster Posey.

[davearm2]

You do realize that nobody is saying or has said that players shouldn't ever be exposed to situations that could hurt them, right? You DO understand the difference between inherent risk (sliding into bases) and unnecessary risk (laying out/leaping for a catch), yes?

Sliding into a base is no more or less necessary than diving/leaping. They're both voluntary.

Edited July 22, 2011 by davearm2

[Sammy Sofa]

Guys, what about the pitcher? They're directly in the line of fire if the batter hits a ball up the middle. Should the pitcher just pitch the ball and then dive behind the mound for cover? Lots of risk involved in pitching, y'know!

[Sammy Sofa]

You do realize that nobody is saying or has said that players shouldn't ever be exposed to situations that could hurt them, right? You DO understand the difference between inherent risk (sliding into bases) and unnecessary risk (laying out/leaping for a catch), yes?

Sliding into a base is not necessary.

 

So, can you actually explain this, or are you just taking the broad "nothing in the game is actually necessary" stance?

[davearm2]

Guys, what about the pitcher? They're directly in the line of fire if the batter hits a ball up the middle. Should the pitcher just pitch the ball and then dive behind the mound for cover? Lots of risk involved in pitching, y'know!

Finally you're seeing the fallacy in all of this.

[Sammy Sofa]

Guys, what about the pitcher? They're directly in the line of fire if the batter hits a ball up the middle. Should the pitcher just pitch the ball and then dive behind the mound for cover? Lots of risk involved in pitching, y'know!

Finally you're seeing the fallacy in all of this.

 

Yes, your perspective is completely flawed.

[XZero771679666304]

Guys, what about the pitcher? They're directly in the line of fire if the batter hits a ball up the middle. Should the pitcher just pitch the ball and then dive behind the mound for cover? Lots of risk involved in pitching, y'know!

 

Better to just let the pitcher use a shield. And clear out the dugouts, too. Lots of foul liners going in there. Dangerous.

[davearm2]

You do realize that nobody is saying or has said that players shouldn't ever be exposed to situations that could hurt them, right? You DO understand the difference between inherent risk (sliding into bases) and unnecessary risk (laying out/leaping for a catch), yes?

Sliding into a base is not necessary.

 

So, can you actually explain this, or are you just taking the broad "nothing in the game is actually necessary" stance?

Within the realm of what's necessary, there's no discernable difference between sliding and diving/leaping.

 

A guy can stand up and be tagged out at a base just as easily as he can pull up and play a sinking liner on a bounce.

[davearm2]

Guys, what about the pitcher? They're directly in the line of fire if the batter hits a ball up the middle. Should the pitcher just pitch the ball and then dive behind the mound for cover? Lots of risk involved in pitching, y'know!

 

Better to just let the pitcher use a shield. And clear out the dugouts, too. Lots of foul liners going in there. Dangerous.

You seem oblivious to the fact that this just reinforces the point I'm making.

[TruffleShuffle]

nobody is saying that soriano or whoever should never dive, but maybe it's not a great idea to boo aramis ramirez when he doesn't bust it down to first base at 100% when he hits a routine ground ball to second. or maybe it's not a great idea to heckle soriano when he slows down before plowing into a brick wall that is covered with only ivy.

 

idiots seem to be unaware that when a player just goes balls out on every play, he's going to get hurt more often than if he exercises a little bit of caution.

[XZero771679666304]

Guys, what about the pitcher? They're directly in the line of fire if the batter hits a ball up the middle. Should the pitcher just pitch the ball and then dive behind the mound for cover? Lots of risk involved in pitching, y'know!

 

Better to just let the pitcher use a shield. And clear out the dugouts, too. Lots of foul liners going in there. Dangerous.

You seem oblivious to the fact that this just reinforces the point I'm making.

 

No it really isn't. It's just reinforcing that we can all draw preposterously stupid comparisons.

[davearm2]

nobody is saying that soriano or whoever should never dive, but maybe it's not a great idea to boo aramis ramirez when he doesn't bust it down to first base at 100% when he hits a routine ground ball to second. or maybe it's not a great idea to heckle soriano when he slows down before plowing into a brick wall that is covered with only ivy.

 

idiots seem to be unaware that when a player just goes balls out on every play, he's going to get hurt more often than if he exercises a little bit of caution.

Do you seriously think Soriano is on the cusp of going balls out on every play? LOL

[Sammy Sofa]

You do realize that nobody is saying or has said that players shouldn't ever be exposed to situations that could hurt them, right? You DO understand the difference between inherent risk (sliding into bases) and unnecessary risk (laying out/leaping for a catch), yes?

Sliding into a base is not necessary.

 

So, can you actually explain this, or are you just taking the broad "nothing in the game is actually necessary" stance?

Within the realm of what's necessary, there's no discernable difference between sliding and diving/leaping.

 

A guy can stand up and be tagged out at a base just as easily as he can pull up and play a sinking liner on a bounce.

 

You're beyond ridiculous at this point.

 

The likelihood of sliding working out balance out the risk. Laying out to make a catch is such a long shot that the odds of things going wrong (injury, turning a single into a double or more, etc.) are way too high when compared to the likelihood of making the play.

[Sammy Sofa]

nobody is saying that soriano or whoever should never dive, but maybe it's not a great idea to boo aramis ramirez when he doesn't bust it down to first base at 100% when he hits a routine ground ball to second. or maybe it's not a great idea to heckle soriano when he slows down before plowing into a brick wall that is covered with only ivy.

 

idiots seem to be unaware that when a player just goes balls out on every play, he's going to get hurt more often than if he exercises a little bit of caution.

Do you seriously think Soriano is on the cusp of going balls out on every play? LOL

 

Why you think such a thing is quantifiable and isn't completely subjective and that it's something you think you can argue is baffling.

[TruffleShuffle]

obviously soriano isn't going balls out on every play, but given that he gets hurt a lot and has leg problems, it seems that would be a bad idea for him. the better question is, why would it make you feel better to see him sprint after a routine line drive single rather than jogging to field that routine line drive single that is still a single after he fields it and throws to second base?

[CubColtPacer]

Other than that though, he's probably lost 20-30 bases so far this season on both sides of the ball just from lack of hustle (although I still believe his hustle issues are overstated because the way he runs it sometimes look like he's not running as hard as he actually is-but sometimes he does lollygag).

 

Wow that is just a whole bunch of ridiculous unsubstantiated nonsense right there.

 

I can't really substantiate it without going through all the game tape. It's not like it's something I can look through the game log and find examples from. As others have pointed out, 20-30 bases might be overstating it. I thought of a few examples from the last month or so and then tried to extrapolate that over the entire season, assuming that he has committed around the same number of mistakes each month. That might very well be a logical fallacy. I would probably adjust it a little bit down, but knowing an exact number without the game tape is impossible. We do know from fangraphs who have tracked all these things that Ramirez and Soriano have been 2 of the worst 5 baserunners in all of baseball this season though.

[Sammy Sofa]

obviously soriano isn't going balls out on every play, but given that he gets hurt a lot and has leg problems, it seems that would be a bad idea for him. the better question is, why would it make you feel better to see him sprint after a routine line drive single rather than jogging to field that routine line drive single that is still a single after he fields it and throws to second base?

 

It would be crazy if we existed in a world where we could have stats that gauge how much of a liability defensively a fielder is based on the speed they display/plays they make, etc.. You'd think davearm2 would be all over that because surely it shows that Soriano as someone who obviously would benefit from busting his ass more.

[Sammy Sofa]

Other than that though, he's probably lost 20-30 bases so far this season on both sides of the ball just from lack of hustle (although I still believe his hustle issues are overstated because the way he runs it sometimes look like he's not running as hard as he actually is-but sometimes he does lollygag).

 

Wow that is just a whole bunch of ridiculous unsubstantiated nonsense right there.

 

I can't really substantiate it without going through all the game tape. It's not like it's something I can look through the game log and find examples from. As others have pointed out, 20-30 bases might be overstating it. I thought of a few examples from the last month or so and then tried to extrapolate that over the entire season, assuming that he has committed around the same number of mistakes each month. That might very well be a logical fallacy. I would probably adjust it a little bit down, but knowing an exact number without the game tape is impossible. We do know from fangraphs who have tracked all these things that Ramirez and Soriano have been 2 of the worst 5 baserunners in all of baseball this season though.

 

But thanks to the stats we also know Aramis is the best 3B offensively in the NL this year. So would the elevated risk of him busting his ass out of the box every time (and being older and somewhat injury prone) be justified?

[CubColtPacer]

Where did the Ramirez talking point even come from? Is it all still carryover from Pittsburgh when he was playing on a broken [expletive] ankle?

 

The only time I remember Ramirez ever having a big problem with hustling was 2006 where he got caught about 3 times admiring home balls that didn't go out. He is awfully slow and pretty terrible on the basepaths and that's maybe where he got the reputation as a bad hustler, but I don't think it's deserved.

[CubColtPacer]

Other than that though, he's probably lost 20-30 bases so far this season on both sides of the ball just from lack of hustle (although I still believe his hustle issues are overstated because the way he runs it sometimes look like he's not running as hard as he actually is-but sometimes he does lollygag).

 

Wow that is just a whole bunch of ridiculous unsubstantiated nonsense right there.

 

I can't really substantiate it without going through all the game tape. It's not like it's something I can look through the game log and find examples from. As others have pointed out, 20-30 bases might be overstating it. I thought of a few examples from the last month or so and then tried to extrapolate that over the entire season, assuming that he has committed around the same number of mistakes each month. That might very well be a logical fallacy. I would probably adjust it a little bit down, but knowing an exact number without the game tape is impossible. We do know from fangraphs who have tracked all these things that Ramirez and Soriano have been 2 of the worst 5 baserunners in all of baseball this season though.

 

But thanks to the stats we also know Aramis is the best 3B offensively in the NL this year. So would the elevated risk of him busting his ass out of the box every time (and being older and somewhat injury prone) be justified?

 

I wouldn't think so. Fangraphs has his baserunning take away a full third of his offensive value this year, but I don't think hustling on outs would help that very much as I think he just has deficiencies in that area . But I haven't even seen Ramirez be that bad at not hustling either.

[davearm2]

You do realize that nobody is saying or has said that players shouldn't ever be exposed to situations that could hurt them, right? You DO understand the difference between inherent risk (sliding into bases) and unnecessary risk (laying out/leaping for a catch), yes?

Sliding into a base is not necessary.

 

So, can you actually explain this, or are you just taking the broad "nothing in the game is actually necessary" stance?

Within the realm of what's necessary, there's no discernable difference between sliding and diving/leaping.

 

A guy can stand up and be tagged out at a base just as easily as he can pull up and play a sinking liner on a bounce.

 

You're beyond ridiculous at this point.

 

The likelihood of sliding working out balance out the risk. Laying out to make a catch is such a long shot that the odds of things going wrong (injury, turning a single into a double or more, etc.) are way too high when compared to the likelihood of making the play.

That's BS. Diving for a ball in the outfield is not a long shot play, nor is it a high injury risk play.

 

As to the first, I'd completely unscientifically estimate that OFs come up with about half of the diving catches they attempt. Maybe a bit more than half. Doesn't seem long shot to me.

 

As to the second, I'd need it explained how the injury risk from diving in OF grass is higher than the risk of sliding headfirst into second base, where there's a fielder to collide with and a base to jam a finger/wrist on.

 

If I'm beyond ridiculous, then you're doing a horrible job of explaining why. From what I can tell, you're drawing completely arbitrary and indefensible boundaries for what is acceptable risk on a baseball field (batting, sliding, blocking the plate, etc), and what is not (diving/leaping in the outfield).

[Sammy Sofa]

Other than that though, he's probably lost 20-30 bases so far this season on both sides of the ball just from lack of hustle (although I still believe his hustle issues are overstated because the way he runs it sometimes look like he's not running as hard as he actually is-but sometimes he does lollygag).

 

Wow that is just a whole bunch of ridiculous unsubstantiated nonsense right there.

 

I can't really substantiate it without going through all the game tape. It's not like it's something I can look through the game log and find examples from. As others have pointed out, 20-30 bases might be overstating it. I thought of a few examples from the last month or so and then tried to extrapolate that over the entire season, assuming that he has committed around the same number of mistakes each month. That might very well be a logical fallacy. I would probably adjust it a little bit down, but knowing an exact number without the game tape is impossible. We do know from fangraphs who have tracked all these things that Ramirez and Soriano have been 2 of the worst 5 baserunners in all of baseball this season though.

 

But thanks to the stats we also know Aramis is the best 3B offensively in the NL this year. So would the elevated risk of him busting his ass out of the box every time (and being older and somewhat injury prone) be justified?

 

I wouldn't think so. Fangraphs has his baserunning take away a full third of his offensive value this year, but I don't think hustling on outs would help that very much as I think he just has deficiencies in that area . But I haven't even seen Ramirez be that bad at not hustling either.

 

So is that just based mostly on his speed?

[davearm2]

obviously soriano isn't going balls out on every play, but given that he gets hurt a lot and has leg problems, it seems that would be a bad idea for him. the better question is, why would it make you feel better to see him sprint after a routine line drive single rather than jogging to field that routine line drive single that is still a single after he fields it and throws to second base?

 

It would be crazy if we existed in a world where we could have stats that gauge how much of a liability defensively a fielder is based on the speed they display/plays they make, etc.. You'd think davearm2 would be all over that because surely it shows that Soriano as someone who obviously would benefit from busting his ass more.

A), defensive metrics in their current state are unreliable, at best. But that's a totally separate discussion.

 

The bigger issue is, B) those metrics are never ever going to be able to tell you how many more plays a particular fielder giving <100% effort would have made with 100% effort. And that's the issue at hand here.

[treebird]

That's BS. Diving for a ball in the outfield is not a long shot play, nor is it a high injury risk play.

 

As to the first, I'd completely unscientifically estimate that OFs come up with about half of the diving catches they attempt. Maybe a bit more than half. Doesn't seem long shot to me.

 

As to the second, I'd need it explained how the injury risk from diving in OF grass is higher than the risk of sliding headfirst into second base, where there's a fielder to collide with and a base to jam a finger/wrist on.

 

If I'm beyond ridiculous, then you're doing a horrible job of explaining why. From what I can tell, you're drawing completely arbitrary and indefensible boundaries for what is acceptable risk on a baseball field (batting, sliding, blocking the plate, etc), and what is not (diving/leaping in the outfield).

 

EVERYONE JUST STOP REPLYING TO THIS

 

IF WE ALL IGNORE IT, IT WON'T MATTER

 

http://images.wikia.com/simpsons/images/6/61/Just-Dont-Look.jpg

[USSoccer]

That's BS. Diving for a ball in the outfield is not a long shot play, nor is it a high injury risk play.

 

As to the first, I'd completely unscientifically estimate that OFs come up with about half of the diving catches they attempt. Maybe a bit more than half. Doesn't seem long shot to me.

 

As to the second, I'd need it explained how the injury risk from diving in OF grass is higher than the risk of sliding headfirst into second base, where there's a fielder to collide with and a base to jam a finger/wrist on.

 

If I'm beyond ridiculous, then you're doing a horrible job of explaining why. From what I can tell, you're drawing completely arbitrary and indefensible boundaries for what is acceptable risk on a baseball field (batting, sliding, blocking the plate, etc), and what is not (diving/leaping in the outfield).

 

EVERYONE JUST STOP REPLYING TO THIS

 

IF WE ALL IGNORE IT, IT WON'T MATTER

 

http://images.wikia.com/simpsons/images/6/61/Just-Dont-Look.jpg

 

karma