"spot" starters

[JoseHernandez18]

I had been wanting to look this up for about 2 months but was afraid of the results. In the 29 Games the Cubs had to "spot" start someone (Coleman, Russell, Davis, Lopez, Ortiz) they are 5-24. Thanks Jimbo for not thinking it was wise to have a reliable 6th guy. (Gorz maybe??)

 

On the bright side when a major leaguer starts (Dempster, Z, Garza, Wells, Cashner x1) the Cubs are 32-31 which would be good enough baseball to be in the mix in the NL Central.

 

How is this guy still the GM?

[Tryptamine]

I had been wanting to look this up for about 2 months but was afraid of the results. In the 29 Games the Cubs had to "spot" start someone (Coleman, Russell, Davis, Lopez, Ortiz) they are 5-24. Thanks Jimbo for not thinking it was wise to have a reliable 6th guy. (Gorz maybe??)

 

On the bright side when a major leaguer starts (Dempster, Z, Garza, Wells, Cashner x1) the Cubs are 32-31 which would be good enough baseball to be in the mix in the NL Central.

 

How is this guy still the GM?

 

Yeah I hate that Jim Hendry. How dare he not expect 4/5 of the rotation to go down, 1 for nearly a full season. He also should have anticipated J.Jackson suddenly being terrible, McNutt having injury problems and all other Iowa starters suddenly forgetting how to pitch. I don't like Hendry either, but what did you really want the guy to do?

[JoseHernandez18]

What did i want him to do?

 

Don't give away a proven back end of the rotation starter.

 

Don't go into the season relying on a kid who has never been a full time MLB starter. (not to mention a kid you are stretching out after using him in the pen last season)

 

You obviously have a better idea of what's going on in the farm system than i do but isn't it just another indictment of Hendry that there wasn't ONE MLB ready arm in the system when these guys went down?

 

I'll give you that there was some bad luck but pitchers get hurt all the time and he had no back up plan. Well he did have one but he traded it to Washington for nothing.

[jumbo]

 

Don't give away a proven back end of the rotation starter.

 

Trading Gorz didn't make sense to a lot of people, but at that time, the cubs had Silva, Cashner, Wellenmeyer, Looper fighting for the 5th spot and Jay Jackson "ready to go" at Iowa. I thought they should have stuck Gorz in the pen until Silva got hurt.

 

Don't go into the season relying on a kid who has never been a full time MLB starter. (not to mention a kid you are stretching out after using him in the pen last season)

 

Using this logic Cashner would never get out of the pen. That said, I think they should have let him start the season in Iowa and wait for an injury or his dominance in Iowa to get him into the ML rotation. Ultimately, the rotation's had more injuries than in recent memory, and it's really affected Wells in particular (or he's just this good naturally).

[idakepps]

 

Don't give away a proven back end of the rotation starter.

 

Trading Gorz didn't make sense to a lot of people, but at that time, the cubs had Silva, Cashner, Wellenmeyer, Looper fighting for the 5th spot and Jay Jackson "ready to go" at Iowa. I thought they should have stuck Gorz in the pen until Silva got hurt.

 

Don't go into the season relying on a kid who has never been a full time MLB starter. (not to mention a kid you are stretching out after using him in the pen last season)

 

Using this logic Cashner would never get out of the pen. That said, I think they should have let him start the season in Iowa and wait for an injury or his dominance in Iowa to get him into the ML rotation. Ultimately, the rotation's had more injuries than in recent memory, and it's really affected Wells in particular (or he's just this good naturally).

 

I think the Gorz trade has gone somewhat overlooked by the media. It was a dumb trade. Can anyone say they were counting on Silva, Wellenmeyer or Looper to be in the rotation? Clearly, the Cubs weren't since none of those three made the team. Cashner should have been in Iowa to start the year and Gorz at #4, Wells #5.

[Guest]

The Cubs had a competition for the 5th starter spot in spring training, it just turned out the loser threw a hissy fit and they couldn't keep him as a 6th starter. They also had three guys who could've been counted on to be options for a 7th starter disappear on them before opening day, although Looper and Wellemeyer weren't locks to be better than the dreck we've run out there so far.

[rawaction]

The Cubs had a competition for the 5th starter spot in spring training, it just turned out the loser threw a hissy fit and they couldn't keep him as a 6th starter. They also had three guys who could've been counted on to be options for a 7th starter disappear on them before opening day, although Looper and Wellemeyer weren't locks to be better than the dreck we've run out there so far.

 

Like you said Looper and Wellemeyer were not going to be options. Best case scenario is they go to AAA and be mediocre and be just as bad of options as Coleman has been. That left just Silva. Silva was a high priced veteran player, getting passed over by a kid with no ML starting experience. It could have been foreseen that he would have an issue with not getting a starting spot.

 

The bottom line is Hendry traded away an effective, cheap starter in Gorzellany for basically nothing. Gorzo would have been the perfect 6th starter. He did it part of last year. He was cheap and wouldn't throw a hissyfit over it.

[CubColtPacer]

The Cubs had a competition for the 5th starter spot in spring training, it just turned out the loser threw a hissy fit and they couldn't keep him as a 6th starter. They also had three guys who could've been counted on to be options for a 7th starter disappear on them before opening day, although Looper and Wellemeyer weren't locks to be better than the dreck we've run out there so far.

 

Like you said Looper and Wellemeyer were not going to be options. Best case scenario is they go to AAA and be mediocre and be just as bad of options as Coleman has been. That left just Silva. Silva was a high priced veteran player, getting passed over by a kid with no ML starting experience. It could have been foreseen that he would have an issue with not getting a starting spot.

 

The bottom line is Hendry traded away an effective, cheap starter in Gorzellany for basically nothing. Gorzo would have been the perfect 6th starter. He did it part of last year. He was cheap and wouldn't throw a hissyfit over it.

 

The question is, do you keep a guy who you expect to be poor in the bullpen just to be a 6th starter if needed? If the Cubs starters had been healthy, Gorz would have been paid 2.1 million dollars to pitch once or twice a week in mopup situations. Instead, the Cubs got some intriguing prospects for him (of course most of that intrigue is now gone). It's an interesting question though-is depth enough reason to pay a guy to be a long reliever?

[Little Slide Rooter]

Gorz might have been the only hope. I cant see Silva having been much better than any of our spot starters, and coupled with Jay jackson being injured, and then bad and Chris Carpenter being converted to the pen, we really didnt have much depth to speak of.

[Guest]

The Cubs had a competition for the 5th starter spot in spring training, it just turned out the loser threw a hissy fit and they couldn't keep him as a 6th starter. They also had three guys who could've been counted on to be options for a 7th starter disappear on them before opening day, although Looper and Wellemeyer weren't locks to be better than the dreck we've run out there so far.

 

Like you said Looper and Wellemeyer were not going to be options. Best case scenario is they go to AAA and be mediocre and be just as bad of options as Coleman has been. That left just Silva. Silva was a high priced veteran player, getting passed over by a kid with no ML starting experience. It could have been foreseen that he would have an issue with not getting a starting spot.

 

The bottom line is Hendry traded away an effective, cheap starter in Gorzellany for basically nothing. Gorzo would have been the perfect 6th starter. He did it part of last year. He was cheap and wouldn't throw a hissyfit over it.

 

The question is, do you keep a guy who you expect to be poor in the bullpen just to be a 6th starter if needed? If the Cubs starters had been healthy, Gorz would have been paid 2.1 million dollars to pitch once or twice a week in mopup situations. Instead, the Cubs got some intriguing prospects for him (of course most of that intrigue is now gone). It's an interesting question though-is depth enough reason to pay a guy to be a long reliever?

 

Right, people were totally on board with trading Gorzelanny this offseason, because Silva looked untradeable, and keeping all 3 of Silva/Cashner/Gorzelanny would’ve been a waste. The problem came that the Cubs had injuries hit them immediately, and hit them two at a time. By getting hurt in their first start, they had the disadvantage of not being able to bring back guys like Looper and Wellemeyer, who while not great options, were good enough in the team’s eyes to invite to camp to serve as such a contingency. They both retired, so Hendry had to move on to the Davis/Lopez brigade. It also kept them from having any time to evaluate any young guys that could have stepped forward in the young minor league season. In the first week of April, Trey McNutt was not a consideration for the MLB rotation. If Wells had gotten hurt on May 15th, he might’ve been. Which brings me to that other point, both guys getting hurt simultaneously ensured 100% overlap in the time they were out, and made it pretty much impossible to capably fill both spots. Even if Gorzelanny still had been around we still would’ve had someone like Coleman or Davis starting pretty much the whole season because one of Wells, Garza, or Z has been on the DL almost continuously.

[jersey cubs fan]

The question is, do you keep a guy who you expect to be poor in the bullpen just to be a 6th starter if needed?

 

When your other options are storing a veteran with a guaranteed contract and a bad attitude in AAA (something anybody with half a brain would have know would not work) or luring old guys out of retirement, you sure as hell do. Cashner never stood a chance of being a 6 inning 100 pitch guy this season, with or without injury. Gorz could have gotten plenty of work in a virtual piggy back situation with him. In previous seasons Hendry talked about the need for 6 or 7 starters, in this season, he decided not to go with any backup options.

[UMFan83]

Casey Coleman gave them a 4.11 ERA in 12 appearances (8 starts) last year (albeit with dubious peripherals). Considering he could easily be shuffled back and forth from Iowa without complaint, I don't think you can fault the Cubs for thinking Coleman could have been an injury replacement in the rotation. Then despite how much we hate Doug Davis, they probably expected that he had at least a shot to contribute if we were missing 2 starters at once. He had awful numbers last year with Milwaukee, but signing him to a minor league deal to see if he can put up an ERA in the low to mid 4's like he had in the previous 3 years prior to 2010 wasn't a bad thought overall. I'm sure they didn't expect Thomas Diamond to go from ERAs of 4.20 and 3.16 in 09 and 10 to 8.66 this year. I doubt they thought Jay Jackson would go from a top 100 prospect to start 2010 to an ERA over 6. Austin Bibens-Dirkx going from 3.27 ERA to 4.61 to 7.16 this year. Mathes gonig from 3.62 to 5.44 to 9.07 this year.

 

The Cubs came in thinking their contingency plan would include Coleman, Davis, and someone from the AAA rotation stepping up. Instead every single starter in AAA has completely regressed to the point where a team desperate for starting pitching could not justify bringing up any of those guys in Iowa.

[Sammy Sofa]

Casey Coleman gave them a 4.11 ERA in 12 appearances (8 starts) last year (albeit with dubious peripherals). Considering he could easily be shuffled back and forth from Iowa without complaint, I don't think you can fault the Cubs for thinking Coleman could have been an injury replacement in the rotation. Then despite how much we hate Doug Davis, they probably expected that he had at least a shot to contribute if we were missing 2 starters at once. He had awful numbers last year with Milwaukee, but signing him to a minor league deal to see if he can put up an ERA in the low to mid 4's like he had in the previous 3 years prior to 2010 wasn't a bad thought overall. I'm sure they didn't expect Thomas Diamond to go from ERAs of 4.20 and 3.16 in 09 and 10 to 8.66 this year. I doubt they thought Jay Jackson would go from a top 100 prospect to start 2010 to an ERA over 6. Austin Bibens-Dirkx going from 3.27 ERA to 4.61 to 7.16 this year. Mathes gonig from 3.62 to 5.44 to 9.07 this year.

 

The Cubs came in thinking their contingency plan would include Coleman, Davis, and someone from the AAA rotation stepping up. Instead every single starter in AAA has completely regressed to the point where a team desperate for starting pitching could not justify bringing up any of those guys in Iowa.

 

Right. Gorzelanny could have been useful, but I'm sorry, planning for two starters to go down after/during their first starts AND all of their replacements being THAT bad wasn't feasible. Having Gorzelanny wouldn't have magically spared Cashner, and he's only one guy. They'd have won, what, maybe 5 more games because of the guy?

[dew1679666265]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

[Brett]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

 

And Morris still hasn't even pitched this year, has he?

[jersey cubs fan]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

 

We aren't paid executives in charge of the decision making.

[dew1679666265]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

 

And Morris still hasn't even pitched this year, has he?

 

Nope.

[dew1679666265]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

 

We aren't paid executives in charge of the decision making.

 

I'm just curious what has changed that took people from thinking it was a great trade at the time to thinking now that it was a terrible trade at the time. If Gorz wasn't the greatly superior option at the time, what has changed to make him clearly that at the time of the trade?

[Sammy Sofa]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

 

We aren't paid executives in charge of the decision making.

 

I'm just curious what has changed that took people from thinking it was a great trade at the time to thinking now that it was a terrible trade at the time. If Gorz wasn't the greatly superior option at the time, what has changed to make him clearly that at the time of the trade?

 

The Cubs ended up nearly 20 games under .500 and people get punchy.

[dew1679666265]

The Cubs ended up nearly 20 games under .500 and people get punchy.

 

Right, but if Gorz was not an essential part of the team at the time of the trade, why is he all of a sudden now?

[jersey cubs fan]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

 

We aren't paid executives in charge of the decision making.

 

I'm just curious what has changed that took people from thinking it was a great trade at the time to thinking now that it was a terrible trade at the time. If Gorz wasn't the greatly superior option at the time, what has changed to make him clearly that at the time of the trade?

 

They got rid of all the other options as well and had no others. Most people assumed they wouldn't go into the season without a 6th starter.

[Sammy Sofa]

Since this has been an ongoing complaint for a little while now, I figured I'd dig up the original Gorz trade thread.

 

Mostly positive, some questions. Everybody liked Burgess, a few liked Hicks and nobody liked Morris. Almost nobody viewed Gorz as a high-end replacement starter that we needed to keep because he was so much better than everybody else we had.

 

We aren't paid executives in charge of the decision making.

 

I'm just curious what has changed that took people from thinking it was a great trade at the time to thinking now that it was a terrible trade at the time. If Gorz wasn't the greatly superior option at the time, what has changed to make him clearly that at the time of the trade?

 

They got rid of all the other options as well and had no others. Most people assumed they wouldn't go into the season without a 6th starter.

 

Most people would also assume that all of the in-house and retread options would be as horrific as it turned out. There's bad and then there's 2011 Cubs #4-5 starting pitcher bad.

[Sammy Sofa]

The Cubs ended up nearly 20 games under .500 and people get punchy.

 

Right, but if Gorz was not an essential part of the team at the time of the trade, why is he all of a sudden now?

 

Because the team is so bad and people start looking for more things to blame. Gorzelanny goes from being Gorzelanny to the lost salvation given away for nothing.

[jersey cubs fan]

Most people would also assume that all of the in-house and retread options would be as horrific as it turned out. There's bad and then there's 2011 Cubs #4-5 starting pitcher bad.

 

And they were bad because the Cubs didn't go into the season with a viable 6th starter.

[jersey cubs fan]

The Cubs ended up nearly 20 games under .500 and people get punchy.

 

Right, but if Gorz was not an essential part of the team at the time of the trade, why is he all of a sudden now?

 

Because the team is so bad and people start looking for more things to blame. Gorzelanny goes from being Gorzelanny to the lost salvation given away for nothing.

 

Not at all. Gorzelanny was a nice player for the Cubs and they gave him away for nothing. It didn't make much sense at all at the time and it came back to bite them when they decided to go into the season with no 6th starter and needed two.

 

It's also BS that people keep offering the injury excuse as to why the Cubs suck when the Cubs put themselves in the situation they are in.