Tim Wilken

[UMFan83]

Bearclaw, I respect your argument because although it is vastly different from mine, it is thought out. But it's wrong. No one here is salivating over walks because they are walks. No one here is saying a walk is better than a hit, even a single. You seem to know the psychology between batter and pitcher in an AB, but you basically dismiss the fact that the batter has the ability to read pitches and go after or lay off them. It's not the walk that means something, its what having a high walk total stands for, which is pitch selectivity.

 

There are exceptions to the rule (Bradley almost seemed too selective out there. Fukudome at times too) but a majority of the time if you have a high OBP/walk total, you are a pretty good hitter. Also Id be willing to bet that there is a higher coorelation between team OBP and runs scored than team BA and runs scored.

 

Anyways, a lot of you guys can present the argument much better. Just my 2 cents.

[javy knows my name]

This guy doesn't seem to realize that walks relating from all those different causes (wild pitchers, unintentional intentional walk, good pitch selection by the hitter) are going to normalize over the course of a freaking month, not to mention a whole year or minor league career. I appreciate the scout-like deconstruction of a PA, but I have a feeling this guy has no concept of sample size at all and thinks a lot with his "gut."

 

On another note, nsbb is killing it lately. A couple really good discussions going right now.

[CyHawk_Cub]

This guy doesn't seem to realize that walks relating from all those different causes (wild pitchers, unintentional intentional walk, good pitch selection by the hitter) are going to normalize over the course of a freaking month, not to mention a whole year or minor league career. I appreciate the scout-like deconstruction of a PA, but I have a feeling this guy has no concept of sample size at all and thinks a lot with his "gut."

 

On another note, nsbb is killing it lately. A couple really good discussions going right now.

 

^^^ Truth. These kinds of discussions are why I love coming here. I don't know enough to engage in many of the conversations, but it's both entertaining & educational in any event.

[idakepps]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

 

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach. Take Joe Morgan for example. If there was ever a player who understood the value of a walk, Morgan and his career .121 IsoD should be that guy. But you listen to him stumble his way through broadcasts and it's clear he doesn't understand the concept at all. The opposite is true as well, people can understand the value of the walk but not be able to execute for a variety of reasons(lack of talent, pitch recognition, etc).

 

Right, that seems like a really faulty way to point out the Cubs failings when it comes to developing players. Look around most of the minors and I'm very confident that most of the coaches who were former players had sub-.350 OBP's.

 

You sure about that?

 

Red Sox Pawtucket hitting coach Chili Davis, career OBP -- .360

 

Portland hitting coach Russ Mormon, career OBP -- .379

 

Salem hitting coach Alex Ochoa, career OBP -- .353

 

A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach? Are you kidding me? That's what they know. Of course they're going to teach players to play the way they did. They may not tell players to mimic their style exactly, but I promise you, when it comes to something like plate discipline, Russ Mormon is telling his players something very different than Mariano Duncan.

 

Fortunately Ricketts came in saying he wants to emulate the Red Sox org. Well, this is exactly where it happens. The director of player development (Oneri Flieta) is the person hiring the minor league coaches, and if they aren't out and out preaching one style of play over another, they ARE at least hiring people (friends) they're more likely to agree with when it comes to things like this.

[SouthSideRyan]

Do as a I say, not as I do. A hitting coach's OBP has little to nothing to do with his teaching style.

 

ETA: Why are you using minor league #s?

 

ETA: Duncan has a better ISOd than Ochoa.

[Outshined_One]

We're starting to get into chicken and egg territory with these discussions of player development. To me, if the Cubs have so many players in their system with mediocre to poor walk rates, is that a result of player development, or is that instead a result of how the Cubs acquire talent, be it through the draft, international signings, trades, etc.?

 

To be honest, since Wilken took over, I'm having a hard time remembering how many hitters the Cubs have drafted who had noticeably high walk rates and strong plate discipline. Baez has had mixed reports so far. Ditto Vogelbach. Golden was really aggressive, from all reports. Szczur and Gibbs were unremarkable in those respects in college. Vitters had great plate coverage and a good eye, but he had questions about his plate discipline. LeMahieu was a high contact guy. Colvin certainly didn't fit the mold of a patient hitter.

 

Off the top of my head, Brett Jackson is pretty much it, and he had really worrying strikeout issues.

[Guest]

We're starting to get into chicken and egg territory with these discussions of player development. To me, if the Cubs have so many players in their system with mediocre to poor walk rates, is that a result of player development, or is that instead a result of how the Cubs acquire talent, be it through the draft, international signings, trades, etc.?

 

To be honest, since Wilken took over, I'm having a hard time remembering how many hitters the Cubs have drafted who had noticeably high walk rates and strong plate discipline. Baez has had mixed reports so far. Ditto Vogelbach. Golden was really aggressive, from all reports. Szczur and Gibbs were unremarkable in those respects in college. Vitters had great plate coverage and a good eye, but he had questions about his plate discipline. LeMahieu was a high contact guy. Colvin certainly didn't fit the mold of a patient hitter.

 

Off the top of my head, Brett Jackson is pretty much it, and he had really worrying strikeout issues.

 

Szczur had a patient approach in college:

 

At the plate, Szczur offers a patient approach that should allow him to hit for average, although his power leaves much to be desired. His work ethic is off the charts and scouts love his makeup, which was best exemplified when he took some time off from baseball to donate his bone marrow to a 1 year old girl with leukemia.

[Guest]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

 

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach. Take Joe Morgan for example. If there was ever a player who understood the value of a walk, Morgan and his career .121 IsoD should be that guy. But you listen to him stumble his way through broadcasts and it's clear he doesn't understand the concept at all. The opposite is true as well, people can understand the value of the walk but not be able to execute for a variety of reasons(lack of talent, pitch recognition, etc).

 

Right, that seems like a really faulty way to point out the Cubs failings when it comes to developing players. Look around most of the minors and I'm very confident that most of the coaches who were former players had sub-.350 OBP's.

 

You sure about that?

 

Red Sox Pawtucket hitting coach Chili Davis, career OBP -- .360

 

Portland hitting coach Russ Mormon, career OBP -- .379

 

Salem hitting coach Alex Ochoa, career OBP -- .353

 

A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach? Are you kidding me? That's what they know. Of course they're going to teach players to play the way they did. They may not tell players to mimic their style exactly, but I promise you, when it comes to something like plate discipline, Russ Mormon is telling his players something very different than Mariano Duncan.

 

Fortunately Ricketts came in saying he wants to emulate the Red Sox org. Well, this is exactly where it happens. The director of player development (Oneri Flieta) is the person hiring the minor league coaches, and if they aren't out and out preaching one style of play over another, they ARE at least hiring people (friends) they're more likely to agree with when it comes to things like this.

Ever read what Moneyball had to say about Billy Beane?

[Guest]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

 

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach. Take Joe Morgan for example. If there was ever a player who understood the value of a walk, Morgan and his career .121 IsoD should be that guy. But you listen to him stumble his way through broadcasts and it's clear he doesn't understand the concept at all. The opposite is true as well, people can understand the value of the walk but not be able to execute for a variety of reasons(lack of talent, pitch recognition, etc).

 

Right, that seems like a really faulty way to point out the Cubs failings when it comes to developing players. Look around most of the minors and I'm very confident that most of the coaches who were former players had sub-.350 OBP's.

 

You sure about that?

 

Red Sox Pawtucket hitting coach Chili Davis, career OBP -- .360

 

Portland hitting coach Russ Mormon, career OBP -- .379

 

Salem hitting coach Alex Ochoa, career OBP -- .353

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the PCL:

 

Reno .394 OBP Hitting Coach- Rick Burleson (Career Minors OBP .307, Career Majors OBP .328)

Las Vegas .380 OBP Hitting Coach- Chad Mottola (Career Minors OBP .338, Career Majors OBP .263)

Sacramento .371 OBP Hitting Coach- Todd Steverson (Career Minors OBP .340, Career Majors OBP .333)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the Southern League:

 

Mobile .351 Hitting Coach- Alan Zinter (Career Minors OBP .355, Career Majors OBP .214)

Chattanooga .341 Hitting Coach- Franklin Stubbs (Career Minors OBP .374, Career Majors OBP .303)

Jacksonville .340 Hitting Coach- Corey Hart (Career Minors OBP .371, Never Played in the the Majors)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the FSL:

 

Bradenton .353 OBP Hitting Coach- Ryan Long (Career Minors OBP .307, Career Majors OBP .300 in 6 games)

Charlotte .339 OBP Hitting Coach- Joe Szekely (Career Minor OBP .331, Never played in the Majors)

Fort Myers .338 OBP Hitting Coach- Jim Dwyer (Career Minors OBP .418, Career Majors OBP .353)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the Midwest League:

 

Lansing .340 OBP Hitting Coach- John Tamargo (Career Minors OBP .325, Never played in the Majors)

Beloit .338 OBP Hitting Coach- Tommy Watkins (Career Minors OBP .329, Career Majors OBP .438 in 9 games)

Quad Cities .330 OBP Hitting Coach- Joe Kruzel (Never played professional baseball)

[idakepps]

Do as a I say, not as I do. A hitting coach's OBP has little to nothing to do with his teaching style.

 

Where are you coming up with that? I'm showing you statistical evidence to argue my point, you're giving me a mantra.

 

Organization wide, the Cubs are one of the least patient teams in MLB. The Red Sox are among the most patient. Part of this has to do with the kind of players the Red Sox target in the draft and internationally, and part of it has to do with player development, which, um, includes the kind of coaches that are hired to teach the kids how to play. Am I really saying something controversial here?

 

Are you a hitting coach? You're from the south side. Ever heard of Charlie Lau? Read up on him, then tell me your "Do as I say, not as I do" mantra again.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Lau

[idakepps]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

 

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach. Take Joe Morgan for example. If there was ever a player who understood the value of a walk, Morgan and his career .121 IsoD should be that guy. But you listen to him stumble his way through broadcasts and it's clear he doesn't understand the concept at all. The opposite is true as well, people can understand the value of the walk but not be able to execute for a variety of reasons(lack of talent, pitch recognition, etc).

 

Right, that seems like a really faulty way to point out the Cubs failings when it comes to developing players. Look around most of the minors and I'm very confident that most of the coaches who were former players had sub-.350 OBP's.

 

You sure about that?

 

Red Sox Pawtucket hitting coach Chili Davis, career OBP -- .360

 

Portland hitting coach Russ Mormon, career OBP -- .379

 

Salem hitting coach Alex Ochoa, career OBP -- .353

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the PCL:

 

Reno .394 OBP Hitting Coach- Rick Burleson (Career Minors OBP .307, Career Majors OBP .328)

Las Vegas .380 OBP Hitting Coach- Chad Mottola (Career Minors OBP .338, Career Majors OBP .263)

Sacramento .371 OBP Hitting Coach- Todd Steverson (Career Minors OBP .340, Career Majors OBP .333)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the Southern League:

 

Mobile .351 Hitting Coach- Alan Zinter (Career Minors OBP .355, Career Majors OBP .214)

Chattanooga .341 Hitting Coach- Franklin Stubbs (Career Minors OBP .374, Career Majors OBP .303)

Jacksonville .340 Hitting Coach- Corey Hart (Career Minors OBP .371, Never Played in the the Majors)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the FSL:

 

Bradenton .353 OBP Hitting Coach- Ryan Long (Career Minors OBP .307, Career Majors OBP .300 in 6 games)

Charlotte .339 OBP Hitting Coach- Joe Szekely (Career Minor OBP .331, Never played in the Majors)

Fort Myers .338 OBP Hitting Coach- Jim Dwyer (Career Minors OBP .418, Career Majors OBP .353)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the Midwest League:

 

Lansing .340 OBP Hitting Coach- John Tamargo (Career Minors OBP .325, Never played in the Majors)

Beloit .338 OBP Hitting Coach- Tommy Watkins (Career Minors OBP .329, Career Majors OBP .438 in 9 games)

Quad Cities .330 OBP Hitting Coach- Joe Kruzel (Never played professional baseball)

 

Thank you! Proves my point. These hitting coaches show more of a tendency, in either the minors or majors, toward better plate discipline than Joshua, Duncan, and Barbaro did during their careers.

[Tryptamine]

Do as a I say, not as I do. A hitting coach's OBP has little to nothing to do with his teaching style.

 

Where are you coming up with that? I'm showing you statistical evidence to argue my point, you're giving me a mantra.

 

Organization wide, the Cubs are one of the least patient teams in MLB. The Red Sox are among the most patient. Part of this has to do with the kind of players the Red Sox target in the draft and internationally, and part of it has to do with player development, which, um, includes the kind of coaches that are hired to teach the kids how to play. Am I really saying something controversial here?

 

Are you a hitting coach? You're from the south side. Ever heard of Charlie Lau? Read up on him, then tell me your "Do as I say, not as I do" mantra again.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Lau

 

So by your standards then it's best to just go out and find the best pro player you can get to coach? You must have been devastated when Sandberg left and Quade got the job.

[Guest]

I feel so ignored. :(

[Guest]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

 

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach. Take Joe Morgan for example. If there was ever a player who understood the value of a walk, Morgan and his career .121 IsoD should be that guy. But you listen to him stumble his way through broadcasts and it's clear he doesn't understand the concept at all. The opposite is true as well, people can understand the value of the walk but not be able to execute for a variety of reasons(lack of talent, pitch recognition, etc).

 

You sure about that?

 

Red Sox Pawtucket hitting coach Chili Davis, career OBP -- .360

 

Portland hitting coach Russ Mormon, career OBP -- .379

 

Salem hitting coach Alex Ochoa, career OBP -- .353

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the PCL:

 

Reno .394 OBP Hitting Coach- Rick Burleson (Career Minors OBP .307, Career Majors OBP .328)

Las Vegas .380 OBP Hitting Coach- Chad Mottola (Career Minors OBP .338, Career Majors OBP .263)

Sacramento .371 OBP Hitting Coach- Todd Steverson (Career Minors OBP .340, Career Majors OBP .333)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the Southern League:

 

Mobile .351 Hitting Coach- Alan Zinter (Career Minors OBP .355, Career Majors OBP .214)

Chattanooga .341 Hitting Coach- Franklin Stubbs (Career Minors OBP .374, Career Majors OBP .303)

Jacksonville .340 Hitting Coach- Corey Hart (Career Minors OBP .371, Never Played in the the Majors)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the FSL:

 

Bradenton .353 OBP Hitting Coach- Ryan Long (Career Minors OBP .307, Career Majors OBP .300 in 6 games)

Charlotte .339 OBP Hitting Coach- Joe Szekely (Career Minor OBP .331, Never played in the Majors)

Fort Myers .338 OBP Hitting Coach- Jim Dwyer (Career Minors OBP .418, Career Majors OBP .353)

 

Top 3 OBP teams from the Midwest League:

 

Lansing .340 OBP Hitting Coach- John Tamargo (Career Minors OBP .325, Never played in the Majors)

Beloit .338 OBP Hitting Coach- Tommy Watkins (Career Minors OBP .329, Career Majors OBP .438 in 9 games)

Quad Cities .330 OBP Hitting Coach- Joe Kruzel (Never played professional baseball)

 

Thank you! Proves my point. These hitting coaches show more of a tendency, in either the minors or majors, toward better plate discipline than Joshua, Duncan, and Barbaro did during their careers.

 

Joshua had a .355 career OBP in the minors. Duncan had a .334 career minor OBP, and .300 career Majors OBP. Barbaro Garbey had a .351 career OBP in the minors, and a .309 OBP in the Majors. Ricardo Medina had a .339 career OBP in the minors, and never played in the Majors.

[Outshined_One]

We're starting to get into chicken and egg territory with these discussions of player development. To me, if the Cubs have so many players in their system with mediocre to poor walk rates, is that a result of player development, or is that instead a result of how the Cubs acquire talent, be it through the draft, international signings, trades, etc.?

 

To be honest, since Wilken took over, I'm having a hard time remembering how many hitters the Cubs have drafted who had noticeably high walk rates and strong plate discipline. Baez has had mixed reports so far. Ditto Vogelbach. Golden was really aggressive, from all reports. Szczur and Gibbs were unremarkable in those respects in college. Vitters had great plate coverage and a good eye, but he had questions about his plate discipline. LeMahieu was a high contact guy. Colvin certainly didn't fit the mold of a patient hitter.

 

Off the top of my head, Brett Jackson is pretty much it, and he had really worrying strikeout issues.

 

Szczur had a patient approach in college:

 

At the plate, Szczur offers a patient approach that should allow him to hit for average, although his power leaves much to be desired. His work ethic is off the charts and scouts love his makeup, which was best exemplified when he took some time off from baseball to donate his bone marrow to a 1 year old girl with leukemia.

 

His stats don't exactly back it up, as his slash lines looked like the following while he was at Villanova:

 

2009: .346/.438/.436

2010: .443/.487/.667

 

He rarely struck out (23 Ks in 188 ABs in 2009 and 9 Ks in 174 ABs in 2010), though. I think part of the problem with scouting reports is that plate discipline and plate coverage tend to get grouped together; i.e. if a guy doesn't strike out much, then he's clearly got good plate discipline. Szczur seemed to be more of a plate coverage guy than anything else, especially in 2010.

[BearClaw]

To understand what I am saying, you had to have been in the batters box against at least, someone who can bring it. I have been there.

 

Each plate appearance is an adventure, as well as a strategic challenge.

 

The wanton analysis about walks within this thread makes NO MENTION of the phrase "easier said than done"

 

Go try it!

[Outshined_One]

To understand what I am saying, you had to have been in the batters box against at least, someone who can bring it. I have been there.

 

Each plate appearance is an adventure, as well as a strategic challenge.

 

The wanton analysis about walks within this thread makes NO MENTION of the phrase "easier said than done"

 

Go try it!

 

I think you'd be surprised at the number of people who post on this board who have done that and still analyze the game contrary to the way you do.

[Guest]

*inaudible*

[SouthSideRyan]

I feel so ignored. :(

 

Imagine how texascub feels

[Guest]

To understand what I am saying, you had to have been in the batters box against at least, someone who can bring it. I have been there.

 

Each plate appearance is an adventure, as well as a strategic challenge.

 

The wanton analysis about walks within this thread makes NO MENTION of the phrase "easier said than done"

 

Go try it!

It is easier said than done. However there are obviously people who do it and people who teach it, so it's not impossible. It would be great if more Cub prospects could do it. I echo O_O's sentiments.

[Guest]

I feel so ignored. :(

 

Imagine how texascub feels

Who? :)

[UMFan83]

To understand what I am saying, you had to have been in the batters box against at least, someone who can bring it. I have been there.

 

Each plate appearance is an adventure, as well as a strategic challenge.

 

The wanton analysis about walks within this thread makes NO MENTION of the phrase "easier said than done"

 

Go try it!

 

Wow you went there.

 

Obviously its not easy to do, that's why teams pay millions of dollars for players that do these things. You can play all the baseball you want, it doesn't change the fact that the large large majority of the games best hitters draw a lot of walks and accept working the count as a key to their success. Me not having experience working the count against a good pitcher has nothing to do with this.

[BearClaw]

well, after the no hitter in Peoria by Kirk a couple a weeks ago, he got shelled, and if you listened to it, the Lake County hitters were aggressive.

 

I think I sense frustration of many years without the TROPHY

 

That can cloud ones eyes and cause myopia

[UMFan83]

This coaching OBP thing is a bit silly. Just because they didn't have a high OBP in their careers doesnt mean that they don't value it. Some players just aren't good enough but make good teacher.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

I think I sense frustration of many years without the TROPHY

 

That can cloud ones eyes and cause myopia

 

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.