Tim Wilken

[Guest]

Fleita on the other hand... I'm sad to say it since he does seem like a genuinely nice person, but it's time for him to go.

What are the issues with Fleita? I legitimately don't know much about his responsibilities.

See the quotes from Fuld above in this thread.

[Vanilla Ice]

Fleita on the other hand... I'm sad to say it since he does seem like a genuinely nice person, but it's time for him to go.

What are the issues with Fleita? I legitimately don't know much about his responsibilities.

See the quotes from Fuld above in this thread.

Ah, yes. So Fleita is responsible for that organizational philosophy?

[Guest]

Fleita on the other hand... I'm sad to say it since he does seem like a genuinely nice person, but it's time for him to go.

What are the issues with Fleita? I legitimately don't know much about his responsibilities.

See the quotes from Fuld above in this thread.

Ah, yes. So Fleita is responsible for that organizational philosophy?

Whether it starts with him or not, he's responsible for carrying that throughout the minors for the cubs. I also don't agree with how the Cubs have handled several prospects - I generally feel they rush a prospect more than they should. In the case of someone like Castro, he has flourished despite his rapid ascent. But if the Cubs had been more patient with him and told him the key to getting to Chicago was to combine his contact skills with a better approach at the plate...perhaps even he would have benefited from some extra time.

 

Then there's just the general lack of progress from too many kids on the farm. There may not have been as much talent as we'd like at all times, but development has to take a fair amount of the blame, too. We ditched Stockstill a number of years ago, but Fleita has just kept getting promotions.

[idakepps]

Fleita on the other hand... I'm sad to say it since he does seem like a genuinely nice person, but it's time for him to go.

What are the issues with Fleita? I legitimately don't know much about his responsibilities.

See the quotes from Fuld above in this thread.

Ah, yes. So Fleita is responsible for that organizational philosophy?

 

As director of player personel he would be. It's wilken's job to get him players. It's Oneri's job to place them in the system and move them up. Although Oneri came up through international scouting if I'm not mistaken so he probably still has a hand in that. Plus he's Cuban American.

[Little Slide Rooter]

From what I gather, Wilkens MO is to fill the system with role playersand guys who can be everyday players but not quite stars and build them around the stars aquired through trade or FA, which is all fine and dandy if we can aquire said stars through trade and FA.

unfortunately, these are the players that are (relatively) really easy to find

 

Scott Sizemore, and Andrew Miller, and Franklin Morales, and Cameron Maybin were all each just acquired for i don't know, a pack of Big League Chew, and here we are hoping all our minor leaguers develop to be these types of players

 

[expletive] it, just go for broke and fill the system full of high potential guys; more Goldens and Burgesses and Lakes and Rundles, please, and just go reap the benefits of other teams' impatience to find your average starters or role players

 

That's the thing. I think he actually just did that actually. Our draft this year was MUCH different than in year's past. We've got as much depth as any system in baseball, so we finally took the upside guys this year to give us a different look. Money may very well have been an issue as well previously, but hopefully we sign quite a few guys out of this draft, because it could give our system a completely different look.

 

I do remember a quote from Wilken saying Hendry had told him to find him "major leaguers" in the past. To me, that implies finding guys with less upside but high floors and Wilken has done a solid job of providing that. My guess is that his philosophy isn't the exact same as Hendry's(even though they are really good friends evidently) and we'll see him with more drafts like this one, if we have a new GM or not......

 

In the end, for me, I like him and want him around for years to come.

 

"Major leaguers" is pretty much what Wilken has produced. Barney, Campana, Carpenter, Flaherty, etc. May all go on the fairly long big league careers, but I really dont see stardom and big contracts in their future. Maybe Ryan Flaherty can become a DeRosa type if he ever gets the chance to be a full time player, but thats about it, and its hard to tell what to ever expect from Jackson and Szczur. Thats why Id like them to sign guys like Baez, Vogelsbach, Dunston, and Maples with very high upsides even if it costs a bundle and we dont see them for another 5 years.

[Outshined_One]

Having a "below average" minor league system can be a byproduct of graduations and trades.

 

So obviously you can't evaluate Wilken without including guys that have reached the majors (Castro, Carpenter, Cashner, etc) or were traded (Lee, Guyer, etc).

 

One thing I think people need to keep in mind is that Wilken has no role on the international side of things.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Having a "below average" minor league system can be a byproduct of graduations and trades.

 

So obviously you can't evaluate Wilken without including guys that have reached the majors (Castro, Carpenter, Cashner, etc) or were traded (Lee, Guyer, etc).

 

One thing I think people need to keep in mind is that Wilken has no role on the international side of things.

 

I was wondering as well what role, if any Wilken has in that side.

[Outshined_One]

Having a "below average" minor league system can be a byproduct of graduations and trades.

 

So obviously you can't evaluate Wilken without including guys that have reached the majors (Castro, Carpenter, Cashner, etc) or were traded (Lee, Guyer, etc).

 

One thing I think people need to keep in mind is that Wilken has no role on the international side of things.

 

I was wondering as well what role, if any Wilken has in that side.

 

Wilken in his own words

 

Tim Wilken: I coordinate from 20 to 25 amateur scouts in the United States and Puerto Rico. Once the draft is over, I turn my attention to professional scouting, which I coordinate with Randy Bush and Jim Hendry. We talk frequently about potential deals between May and the trade deadline.

 

Paul Weaver heads up international scouting for the Cubs.

[questionmarkgrace]

Iowa, Tennessee, Daytona, and Peoria all rank near the bottom of their respective leagues in team walks...yeah, I think it's an organizational issue.

 

This is frightening. Think of all this young players down there that are being repeatedly told to "stay aggressive" instead of being taught the nuances of situational hitting. This is another reason why this organization needs an overhaul from top to bottom. Otherwise the garbage gets filtered down to the younger players repeating the cycle of crappy play.

[Sammy Sofa]

What's the difference in walks between the top teams and the bottom teams in those leagues?

[SouthSideRyan]

I really hope "be agressive" isn't replaced with "situational hitting"

[dfnowak]

What's the difference in walks between the top teams and the bottom teams in those leagues?

 

Iowa ranks 15th out of 16 teams in the pcl w/ 279 walks. Top team has 417, bottom team has 277

 

Tennessee ranks last out of 10 teams in the Southern league w/ 265 walks. Top team has 351

 

Daytona ranks 8th out of 12 teams in the fsl w/ 264 walks. Top team has 350 walks, bottom team has 223

 

Peoria ranks 15th out of 16 teams in the Midwest league w/ 230 walks. Top team has 329 walks, bottom team has 213

[Ballgame64]

What's the difference in walks between the top teams and the bottom teams in those leagues?

 

Iowa ranks 15th out of 16 teams in the pcl w/ 279 walks. Top team has 417, bottom team has 277

 

Tennessee ranks last out of 10 teams in the Southern league w/ 265 walks. Top team has 351

 

Daytona ranks 8th out of 12 teams in the fsl w/ 264 walks. Top team has 350 walks, bottom team has 223

 

Peoria ranks 15th out of 16 teams in the Midwest league w/ 230 walks. Top team has 329 walks, bottom team has 213

That pretty much sums up why I want to see everyone under Ricketts fired.

 

For the life of me I can't figure out why Hendry is so dumb about this. The 2008 team was by far the best offensive team he has had but he seemingly doesn't understand why it was a good offensive team.

[BearClaw]

Why worry so much about WALKS. They aren't the best indicator of hitting approach, and most walks are bourne from pitcher command issues. The only WALK with meaning is when a hitter EARNS one from a great at bat outlasting everything the pitcher throws at him.

 

BSFFBFFBFFFB

 

That said, hitting can easily be broken down like this. In every 10 official at bats, three of them automatically belong to the baseball gods, three more for the pitcher who has the initial advantage for a total of 6 outs of the 10.

 

The hitter wins 2 of the at bats(.200)

 

Of the remaining 2 at bats, the hitter has the opportunity to succeed or fail and develop a batting average that ranges between .200 and .400

 

These numbers have been around since day 1.

 

A WALK is not the best stat to use when evaluating a hitter as far as patience, approach, bat control, contact, batting eye, etc.

 

Iowa's offensive numbers are middle of the road, TENN stats are #1(.277), Daytona's are #1(.270), Peoria's are #1(.262) based on current batting averages.

[KingCubsFan]

Why worry so much about WALKS. They aren't the best indicator of hitting approach, and most walks are bourne from pitcher command issues. The only WALK with meaning is when a hitter EARNS one from a great at bat outlasting everything the pitcher throws at him.

 

BSFFBFFBFFFB

 

That said, hitting can easily be broken down like this. In every 10 official at bats, three of them automatically belong to the baseball gods, three more for the pitcher who has the initial advantage for a total of 6 outs of the 10.

 

The hitter wins 2 of the at bats(.200)

 

Of the remaining 2 at bats, the hitter has the opportunity to succeed or fail and develop a batting average that ranges between .200 and .400

 

These numbers have been around since day 1.

 

A WALK is not the best stat to use when evaluating a hitter as far as patience, approach, bat control, contact, batting eye, etc.

 

Iowa's offensive numbers are middle of the road, TENN stats are #1(.277), Daytona's are #1(.270), Peoria's are #1(.262) based on current batting averages.

I didn't know Josh Vitters joined the board

[idakepps]

I didn't know Josh Vitters joined the board

 

Thing is, we have no idea what kind of hitter Josh Vitters might have become had he come up in a system that stressed some semblance of plate discipline.

 

Who is Josh Vitters hitting coach? Mariano Duncan. Everyone here knows who he is. Not an amazing player, but someone who had a 12 year career in the big leagues.

 

Anyone want to take a stab at his career OBP?

 

.300

[idakepps]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

[scarey]

It's obvious the Cubs put an emphasis on developing the hitting tool before stressing plate discipline, but I know I've heard evaluations from hitting coaches, managers, and Fleita stating something along the lines of "So-and-so is doing great, but we want to work on his plate discipline." It's not as if they're whipping their players for drawing a walk.

 

Also, while Bearclaw's post is ridiculous, the part that should be considered is the fact that average should be considered along with walks. There's a reason we evaluate players by OBP and not always just IsoD.

[Guest]

Why worry so much about WALKS. They aren't the best indicator of hitting approach, and most walks are bourne from pitcher command issues. The only WALK with meaning is when a hitter EARNS one from a great at bat outlasting everything the pitcher throws at him.

 

BSFFBFFBFFFB

 

That said, hitting can easily be broken down like this. In every 10 official at bats, three of them automatically belong to the baseball gods, three more for the pitcher who has the initial advantage for a total of 6 outs of the 10.

 

The hitter wins 2 of the at bats(.200)

 

Of the remaining 2 at bats, the hitter has the opportunity to succeed or fail and develop a batting average that ranges between .200 and .400

 

These numbers have been around since day 1.

 

A WALK is not the best stat to use when evaluating a hitter as far as patience, approach, bat control, contact, batting eye, etc.

 

Iowa's offensive numbers are middle of the road, TENN stats are #1(.277), Daytona's are #1(.270), Peoria's are #1(.262) based on current batting averages.

 

 

Aside from the “out of every 10 example” which doesn’t have a whole lot to do with the topic, you are very wrong. Walks are an extremely important part of being a successful hitter. They ARE evidence of a disciplined approach(though obviously not the end all), and thy sustain hitters through those times when they aren’t getting hits to fall in. Truly successful MLB hitters that don’t walk are very much the exception, and looking at MLB walk leaderboards will undoubtedly show you some of the most productive hitters in the game. Even more so compared to batting average, which has much more variability, and quite simply is statistically inferior to metrics that use walks if you want to try and draw correlations to scoring runs. I understand the sentiment that just looking at walk totals might not tell the whole picture of a single player, or even a team, especially at the minor league level. But when you have level after level that is at the bottom in walks, but talented enough to lead those levels in average, then you have an organizational issue, either in acquisition, development, or both.

[Guest]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

 

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach. Take Joe Morgan for example. If there was ever a player who understood the value of a walk, Morgan and his career .121 IsoD should be that guy. But you listen to him stumble his way through broadcasts and it's clear he doesn't understand the concept at all. The opposite is true as well, people can understand the value of the walk but not be able to execute for a variety of reasons(lack of talent, pitch recognition, etc).

[BearClaw]

I didn't know Josh Vitters joined the board

 

Thing is, we have no idea what kind of hitter Josh Vitters might have become had he come up in a system that stressed some semblance of plate discipline.

 

Who is Josh Vitters hitting coach? Mariano Duncan. Everyone here knows who he is. Not an amazing player, but someone who had a 12 year career in the big leagues.

 

Anyone want to take a stab at his career OBP?

 

.300

 

Plate discipline is based on swinging at pitches that are driveable, or at least in the strike zone.

 

Most hitters will tell you that each at bat might contain one strike that can be driven, or hit hard. I am not understanding the fascination in this thread for WALKS?

 

There are numerous variables within a plate appearance, and they start with a pitcher trying to throw quality strikes to induce a hitter to make a quick out via contact. A hitter can take an approach of drive the ball first and salvage later(aggressive/passive), or remain aggressive or passive throughout the appearance.

 

If the aggressive approach is maintained and a bad count results(hitter missed his pitch), the pitcher usually gets the out on an out-of-zone pitch(slider/high hard one).

 

If the passive approach is taken(work the count), the pitchers command is the main determinant in the outcome. If the pitcher is dealing(in the strike zone), the hitter will be forced to swing at his pitch, and the hitter better be skilled enough to either pull the hands in or go oppo accordingly, or you'll get a rollover or flair.

 

Where do walks fit into this discussion?

 

They only come into play if the pitcher is throwing balls and the hitter ain't biting.

 

Three of the four higher level Cubs farm teams are leading their respective leagues in batting average. You need hits to do that, not walks. These guys are NOT a bunch of bad ball hitters(Vlads), but pretty good ones.

[CubColtPacer]

I didn't know Josh Vitters joined the board

 

Thing is, we have no idea what kind of hitter Josh Vitters might have become had he come up in a system that stressed some semblance of plate discipline.

 

Who is Josh Vitters hitting coach? Mariano Duncan. Everyone here knows who he is. Not an amazing player, but someone who had a 12 year career in the big leagues.

 

Anyone want to take a stab at his career OBP?

 

.300

 

Plate discipline is based on swinging at pitches that are driveable, or at least in the strike zone.

 

Most hitters will tell you that each at bat might contain one strike that can be driven, or hit hard. I am not understanding the fascination in this thread for WALKS?

 

There are numerous variables within a plate appearance, and they start with a pitcher trying to throw quality strikes to induce a hitter to make a quick out via contact. A hitter can take an approach of drive the ball first and salvage later(aggressive/passive), or remain aggressive or passive throughout the appearance.

 

If the aggressive approach is maintained and a bad count results(hitter missed his pitch), the pitcher usually gets the out on an out-of-zone pitch(slider/high hard one).

 

If the passive approach is taken(work the count), the pitchers command is the main determinant in the outcome. If the pitcher is dealing(in the strike zone), the hitter will be forced to swing at his pitch, and the hitter better be skilled enough to either pull the hands in or go oppo accordingly, or you'll get a rollover or flair.

 

Where do walks fit into this discussion?

 

They only come into play if the pitcher is throwing balls and the hitter ain't biting.

 

Three of the four higher level Cubs farm teams are leading their respective leagues in batting average. You need hits to do that, not walks. These guys are NOT a bunch of bad ball hitters(Vlads), but pretty good ones.

 

Walks are a focus because by the time you come to the major leagues if you aren't walking pitchers will constantly throw you pitcher's pitches knowing that you'll probably chase pitches that are on the corner/close to the corner. It's hard to develop much power without walks. Certain hitters manage to do it, but it's rare. If a hitter is patient enough to take walks, that usually also shows an ability to identify pitches well which makes it more likely that they're not swinging until they get that pitch that you can drive.

 

If you have a guy who doesn't walk much, he's usually either a slap hitter that will be a below average hitter at the major league level (Barney for example), or he's a guy who will be a prime candidate to bust in the majors. It doesn't necessarily have to be a huge walk rate-a high batting average with an average walk rate can be a very good player. But not walking much at all is a big red flag.

[BearClaw]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=4136793

 

pretty good article that includes your thoughts, and mine

 

Says Lieppman: "We have a cycle that we pound into hitters' heads. It consists of the approach, the result, and then the response to what just happened. It's not about going up there trying to walk. It's about getting a good pitch to hit."

[Sammy Sofa]

Heck, this is fun.

 

Iowa hitting coach Von Joshua, career OBP -- .306

 

Daytona hitting coach Barbaro Garbey, career OBP -- .309

 

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A player's on field performance has little to do with what they evangelize as a coach. Take Joe Morgan for example. If there was ever a player who understood the value of a walk, Morgan and his career .121 IsoD should be that guy. But you listen to him stumble his way through broadcasts and it's clear he doesn't understand the concept at all. The opposite is true as well, people can understand the value of the walk but not be able to execute for a variety of reasons(lack of talent, pitch recognition, etc).

 

Right, that seems like a really faulty way to point out the Cubs failings when it comes to developing players. Look around most of the minors and I'm very confident that most of the coaches who were former players had sub-.350 OBP's.

[SouthSideRyan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=4136793

 

pretty good article that includes your thoughts, and mine

 

Says Lieppman: "We have a cycle that we pound into hitters' heads. It consists of the approach, the result, and then the response to what just happened. It's not about going up there trying to walk. It's about getting a good pitch to hit."

 

Who said anything about going up there looking for a walk? If you go up there looking for a good pitch to hit, you're going to walk. How good do you think minor league pitchers' control are that a player would have to be letting hittable pitches go by in order to have a good OBP?