2011 NBA Playoffs Thread

[SouthSideRyan]

Remember when he had two points total in two 4th quarters of big games, while his team was colapsing? Me either.

 

Are you really saying that Jordan NEVER had a bad 4th quarter in ANY "big game?"

 

Just wanted to specify, because that's a helluva lot different than focusing only on Jordan's Finals performances.

 

I was bored earlier today and if you ranked all of Lebron and Jordan's Finals games by "game score" (not that I know what that means but it's some reductive number) from highest to lowest Lebron would hold 5 of the 7 lowest spots. Of course Lebron had played a total of 8 Finals games compared to Jordan's 35.

 

I was bored earlier and ranked all their Finals games by age, and Lebron finished in 8 of the 8 lowest spots.

[Sammy Sofa]

There's no doubt that LeBron is the best player in the NBA right now.

 

He also still has a great chance to have a greater legacy than MJ as the GOAT. However...he isn't there yet. To be fair, at the same age everyone was saying that Jordan was just a scorer and questioned whether he'd ever be able to lead his team to a title.

 

It was never time to compare him to Jordan. Thankfully it never will be.

 

Don't be ridiculous. He's only 26, and there's been an abundance of reasons to compare him to Jordan since he showed up in the NBA. He is THAT elite.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Sammy Sofa

[SouthSideRyan]

Jordan scored every Bulls point in that quarter before Paxson hit the three.

 

If anyone was curious

 

And when it really mattered he didn't have the killer instinct to take the shot himself.

 

And then he wussed out further by letting Grant block KJ's last second runner.

 

Lazy defender IMO

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Why do LeBron supporters so adamantly claim that he's such a great scorer?

 

Because of his per game averages of 27.7 (regular season and 28.2 (playoffs)??? While having similar TS% and eFG as St. Michael?

 

 

Gasp...you are comparing LeBron James to Michael in terms of scoring?! Blasphemy!

 

Yes, LeBron puts up gaudy stats. We've all seen them. He's fantasy basketball king.

But in real basketball, King James is playing with another top 5 player, a top 20 player, and a pretty damn good supporting cast. And he is losing in the finals while having scored 2 pathetic points in the fourth quarter the last 2 games when his team needed points the most.

 

You would've thought he'd have won something by now playing his entire career with such talent while putting up those stats.

[DivineBovine]

The Heat may well win the series. But if LeBron is such a stud, why are the Mavs even in it. I don't get it. He's playing with Wade and Bosh. And I hope we've all gotten over calling Anthony, Miller, Haslem, Bibby total pieces of garbage scrubs.

 

The Mavs are in it because they're a good team lead by an amazing player. Teams were "in it" against Jordan, too, so I'm not exactly sure why the Mavs making it a series would be such damning evidence against LeBron's ability.

 

 

 

My point is that a player that can be considered the best by far in basketball should win this series with that supporting cast. If the Heat win and LeBron dominates game 6 and 7, then I rescind some but not all of my comments.

[Guest]

There's no doubt that LeBron is the best player in the NBA right now.

 

He also still has a great chance to have a greater legacy than MJ as the GOAT. However...he isn't there yet. To be fair, at the same age everyone was saying that Jordan was just a scorer and questioned whether he'd ever be able to lead his team to a title.

 

Exactly right. Unfortunately, Jordan hero worship and the fact that he's become so unlikable has spawned the worst case of moving target, meatheaded sports arguments I've ever seen.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/2a/fullj.1a39e57114694d287c29968ea9661c18/1a39e57114694d287c29968ea9661c18-getty-114832993cc144_miami_heat_v.jpg

[Sammy Sofa]

 

Why do LeBron supporters so adamantly claim that he's such a great scorer?

 

Because of his per game averages of 27.7 (regular season and 28.2 (playoffs)??? While having similar TS% and eFG as St. Michael?

 

 

Gasp...you are comparing LeBron James to Michael in terms of scoring?! Blasphemy!

 

Yes, LeBron puts up gaudy stats. We've all seen them. He's fantasy basketball king.

But in real basketball, King James is playing with another top 5 player, a top 20 player, and a pretty damn good supporting cast. And he is losing in the finals while having scored 2 pathetic points in the fourth quarter the last 2 games when his team needed points the most.

 

You would've thought he'd have won something by now playing his entire career with such talent while putting up those stats.

 

And if he doesn't win it this year then that's the cutoff. One year with Wade & Bosh, that's it, everything afterwards doesn't count. Jordan was able to get it done instantly with Pippen and Grant and Paxson. BASKETBALL LORE HAS SPOKEN.

[Chisoxillini]

That sequence by Lebron of missed 3, offensive foul, missed 3 just killed the momentum for Miami.

 

 

Also, Rick Carlisle looks like Jim Carey coming off a week-long bender.

[Sammy Sofa]

The Heat may well win the series. But if LeBron is such a stud, why are the Mavs even in it. I don't get it. He's playing with Wade and Bosh. And I hope we've all gotten over calling Anthony, Miller, Haslem, Bibby total pieces of garbage scrubs.

 

The Mavs are in it because they're a good team lead by an amazing player. Teams were "in it" against Jordan, too, so I'm not exactly sure why the Mavs making it a series would be such damning evidence against LeBron's ability.

 

 

 

My point is that a player that can be considered the best by far in basketball should win this series with that supporting cast. If the Heat win and LeBron dominates game 6 and 7, then I rescind some but not all of my comments.

 

This is an asinine approach. So if they lose it this year but then win it next year in commanding fashion with LeBron kicking ass everything changes? Really? It comes down to that small a sample size with you?

[Sammy Sofa]

There's no doubt that LeBron is the best player in the NBA right now.

 

He also still has a great chance to have a greater legacy than MJ as the GOAT. However...he isn't there yet. To be fair, at the same age everyone was saying that Jordan was just a scorer and questioned whether he'd ever be able to lead his team to a title.

 

Exactly right. Unfortunately, Jordan hero worship and the fact that he's become so unlikable has spawned the worst case of moving target, meatheaded sports arguments I've ever seen.

 

Pretty much. I can't stand the guy, but most of the arguments against him here are beyond meatball.

[XZero771679666304]

Okay, I don't frequent NBA threads much, but what is going on here? Are people comparing LeBron to Jordan in a GOAT debate? Because that would be preposterous. Maybe in 8-10 years, but not now.

 

Even more preposterous would be saying LeBron is has a better case for GOAT right now. I hope no one is suggesting that.

[Magnetic Curses]

finally, someone uses meatball in a sentence correctly.

[DivineBovine]

 

Why do LeBron supporters so adamantly claim that he's such a great scorer?

 

Because of his per game averages of 27.7 (regular season and 28.2 (playoffs)??? While having similar TS% and eFG as St. Michael?

 

 

Gasp...you are comparing LeBron James to Michael in terms of scoring?! Blasphemy!

 

Yes, LeBron puts up gaudy stats. We've all seen them. He's fantasy basketball king.

But in real basketball, King James is playing with another top 5 player, a top 20 player, and a pretty damn good supporting cast. And he is losing in the finals while having scored 2 pathetic points in the fourth quarter the last 2 games when his team needed points the most.

 

You would've thought he'd have won something by now playing his entire career with such talent while putting up those stats.

 

 

There's always an excuse for LeBron not winning, because he puts up those stats. The stats people will always assume that its not his fault. This might have worked with Cleveland, but it's over now. No more excuses like that. Of course, I'm sure LeBron supporters will continue to find blame in the supporting cast because the stats say he's the best ever. Since its been tough to blame Wade, Bosh, Miller, Chalmers and Bibby lately, then maybe they'll blame Ilgauskas and Howard the finals loss.

 

By the way, I have nothing against math. I use statistics a lot in what I do for a living. But I feel that stats can be misleading and are overused.

[Sammy Sofa]

Okay, I don't frequent NBA threads much, but what is going on here? Are people comparing LeBron to Jordan in a GOAT debate? Because that would be preposterous. Maybe in 8-10 years, but not now.

 

Even more preposterous would be saying LeBron is has a better case for GOAT right now. I hope no one is suggesting that.

 

Yes, nobody can compare one player to another player until both player's careers are done.

[Sammy Sofa]

 

Why do LeBron supporters so adamantly claim that he's such a great scorer?

 

Because of his per game averages of 27.7 (regular season and 28.2 (playoffs)??? While having similar TS% and eFG as St. Michael?

 

 

Gasp...you are comparing LeBron James to Michael in terms of scoring?! Blasphemy!

 

Yes, LeBron puts up gaudy stats. We've all seen them. He's fantasy basketball king.

But in real basketball, King James is playing with another top 5 player, a top 20 player, and a pretty damn good supporting cast. And he is losing in the finals while having scored 2 pathetic points in the fourth quarter the last 2 games when his team needed points the most.

 

You would've thought he'd have won something by now playing his entire career with such talent while putting up those stats.

 

 

There's always an excuse for LeBron not winning, because he puts up those stats. The stats people will always assume that its not his fault. This might have worked with Cleveland, but it's over now. No more excuses like that. Of course, I'm sure LeBron supporters will continue to find blame in the supporting cast because the stats say he's the best ever. Since its been tough to blame Wade, Bosh, Miller, Chalmers and Bibby lately, then maybe they'll blame Ilgauskas and Howard the finals loss.

 

By the way, I have nothing against math. I use statistics a lot in what I do for a living. But I feel that stats can be misleading and are overused.

 

So what was Jordan's excuse?

[Guest]

Okay, I don't frequent NBA threads much, but what is going on here? Are people comparing LeBron to Jordan in a GOAT debate? Because that would be preposterous. Maybe in 8-10 years, but not now.

 

Even more preposterous would be saying LeBron is has a better case for GOAT right now. I hope no one is suggesting that.

 

No one is. What's happening is that people hate LeBron and love Jordan so much that they're so eager to make sure the comparison never gets made that they make incredibly specious statements about LeBron to make themselves feel better about the media making comparisons.

[DivineBovine]

The Heat may well win the series. But if LeBron is such a stud, why are the Mavs even in it. I don't get it. He's playing with Wade and Bosh. And I hope we've all gotten over calling Anthony, Miller, Haslem, Bibby total pieces of garbage scrubs.

 

The Mavs are in it because they're a good team lead by an amazing player. Teams were "in it" against Jordan, too, so I'm not exactly sure why the Mavs making it a series would be such damning evidence against LeBron's ability.

 

 

 

My point is that a player that can be considered the best by far in basketball should win this series with that supporting cast. If the Heat win and LeBron dominates game 6 and 7, then I rescind some but not all of my comments.

 

This is an asinine approach. So if they lose it this year but then win it next year in commanding fashion with LeBron kicking ass everything changes? Really? It comes down to that small a sample size with you?

 

 

 

Don't worry. I doubt it happens.

[Sammy Sofa]

The Heat may well win the series. But if LeBron is such a stud, why are the Mavs even in it. I don't get it. He's playing with Wade and Bosh. And I hope we've all gotten over calling Anthony, Miller, Haslem, Bibby total pieces of garbage scrubs.

 

The Mavs are in it because they're a good team lead by an amazing player. Teams were "in it" against Jordan, too, so I'm not exactly sure why the Mavs making it a series would be such damning evidence against LeBron's ability.

 

 

 

My point is that a player that can be considered the best by far in basketball should win this series with that supporting cast. If the Heat win and LeBron dominates game 6 and 7, then I rescind some but not all of my comments.

 

This is an asinine approach. So if they lose it this year but then win it next year in commanding fashion with LeBron kicking ass everything changes? Really? It comes down to that small a sample size with you?

 

 

 

Don't worry. I doubt it happens.

 

I can't recall seeing you in the Cubs game threads much; does this "stats are deceiving, sample size uber alles" translate over there, too?

[bcl412]

I have to ask, since this is a baseball site with people who have incredible understanding of statistics, is it fair to use championships as an indicator of success in basketball. If LeBron puts up great stats his whole career but never wins a title can we still put him up in the list of greatest ever?

 

The reason I ask this is because I feel like more statistical savvy people and the meat heads both have it right when it comes to basketball and I am trying to draw the line between statistical success in a very team oriented sport like basketball, and team success.

 

(If this makes no sense I apologize. I've been drinking.)

Edited June 10, 2011 by bcl412

[SpongeWorthy]

It's true that Lebron hasn't done anything to warrant this level of scrutiny.

 

We're not talking about a guy who has the phrase "The Chosen One" tattooed on his back or anything.

Edited June 10, 2011 by SpongeWorthy

[DivineBovine]

I can't recall seeing you in the Cubs game threads much; does this "stats are deceiving, sample size uber alles" translate over there, too?

 

 

Statistical analysis is far more applicable to baseball than any other sport.

[XZero771679666304]

Okay, I don't frequent NBA threads much, but what is going on here? Are people comparing LeBron to Jordan in a GOAT debate? Because that would be preposterous. Maybe in 8-10 years, but not now.

 

Even more preposterous would be saying LeBron is has a better case for GOAT right now. I hope no one is suggesting that.

 

Yes, nobody can compare one player to another player until both player's careers are done.

 

If you're building a case for GOAT, it's kind of difficult to make that call when one of the players hasn't had half the time of the other to establish a legacy, isn't it?

[Sammy Sofa]

I have to ask, since this is a baseball states with people who have incredible understanding of statistics, is it fair to use championships as an indicator of success in basketball. If LeBron puts up great stats his whole career but never wins a title can we still put him up in the list of greatest ever?

 

Of course. Obviously the lack of championship is going to knock him down a peg, but it's not like he's be in terrible company never having won a title. Ewing, Barkley, Wilkins, Iverson, Baylor, Maravich, Miller, Stockton, Malone...who is really going to knock any of these guys as not being some of the very greatest of all time?

[Guest]

I have to ask, since this is a baseball site with people who have incredible understanding of statistics, is it fair to use championships as an indicator of success in basketball. If LeBron puts up great stats his whole career but never wins a title can we still put him up in the list of greatest ever?

 

The reason I ask this is because I feel like more statistical savvy people and the meat heads both have it right when it comes to basketball and I am trying to draw the line between statistical success in a very team oriented sport like basketball, and team success.

 

(If this makes no sense I apologize. I've been drinking.)

 

I don't think anyone in this thread would tell you to ignore team success if you're talking about the greatest basketball players ever. The problem comes when people use individual or incomplete points of failure and extrapolate to "he'll NEVER be x". If you're so sure LeBron's never going to win the championships, then you don't need to go to such extreme lengths to make sure his "legacy" is discredited at every turn.