College Basketball 2011-2012

[Magnetic Curses]

Serious (non-trolling) question: what is it about the Illinois program that makes you gus say its equal to MSU or better than Wisconsin? If its based on potential, what specifically makes Illinois better?

 

wisconsin is propped up by bo's system. it's a solid job, but will never recruit on the elite level necessary to compete for national titles. msu gets the same-type kids, but again, they are a school that is largely contingent upon their current coach. they aren't dangerous as a national recruiter, either, which keeps them in the second-tier nationally, with illinois.

[illiniguy]

Remember what I said about it being clear that Derwood knew nothing about college basketball?

.

 

So no answer then?

Look at postertobenamedlaters post.

[UMFan83]

just to fan the flames a bit...

 

A poster on another board I visit said Bruce Pearl was on the radio discussing college hoops. Here's that poster's summary of Bruce discussing the UI job:

 

Really interesting discussion of the Illinois job. Said they should have never fired Webber without a plan in place of who they were goung to hire. Said the coaching community loves Webber and that may be why a lot of them turn down the job. Said Illinois may have an inflated sense of how attractive the job is. Called it the 6th best job in the Big 10 behind MSU, IU, Wisc, Michigan, and Ohio St. Said any coach that goes there will have to "deal with" Chicago high school coaches, which isn't easy. Most don't want the hassle.

 

we're a better job than wisconsin or michigan. the team isn't exactly in a better place than either of those programs. but the potential for success is much greater.

 

however true the idea that coaches are scared away by chicago hoops, if you forge an alliance with the cpl coaches, the sky is the limit. also, kruger didn't recruit chicago at all and was successful at illinois.

 

the illinois job is the equal of osu and msu, it's a 3-team battle for second, which the other two teams are winning right now and over the last 6-7 years. that can change very quickly and likely would have changed immediately if we were getting one of our top choices.

 

wisconsin doesn't recruit well-enough and thusly limits themselves, their ceiling is low and floor is high. michigan has detroit and ohio to recruit but must share that ground with 2 superior programs. they are also a football school and basketball will always be second.

 

I agree about Michigan and probably Wisconsin. Michigan until this year had the shittiest basketball arena in the Big Ten this side of Northwestern, was getting destroyed by Michigan State and Ohio State for in-state recruits, and like you pointed out is a clear 2nd behind football and always will be, even during the Fab 5 years.

 

If Michigan were to ever reclaim recruiting dominance in Michigan then the story might change. But despite a few footsteps in the right direction, I can't see that ever truly happen with Izzo at the helm.

 

Illinois should be 4th in the Big Ten. Getting in good with the HS coaches is big, but Illinois is the big in state school and I just don't see many of them referring their kids to DePaul, Bradley or Southern Illinois over Illinois (in terms of in state options) regardless of who is coaching.

[UMFan83]

I swear I've seen this movie before. This is about the point where everyone tries to sell themselves on Groce only to be stunned by the news that even Groce turns down the Illini offer.

 

As somebody who has first-hand experience of having his school embarrassed by John Groce, what do you think of his coaching ability?

 

nice. you can refer to my outburst in the tourney thread where I pointed out how they were 200+ ranked nationally in FG, FT and 3pt% and for a majority of the game they were shooting like 58% FG, 100% FT and 45% from 3.

 

So maybe hes really good at somehow coaching his team to shoot better for the biggest games?

[UMFan83]

Also, I love this picture of Groce on the Sun-times website:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=6XkziHlwOutbJ8BW8XAlCM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYsovZblqplUb$464OXTU1XcWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

[Derwood]

Serious (non-trolling) question: what is it about the Illinois program that makes you gus say its equal to MSU or better than Wisconsin? If its based on potential, what specifically makes Illinois better?

 

To me its that if you just recruited Illinois (but could get almost anyone you want), you would compete for the title every year. I don't know if there is another state like that that doesn't also have other major in-state options. There is no other school in Illinois that competes with them for recruits, yet, we haven't been able to recruit Chicago very well.

 

It would be nice if there was pressure for those kids to go to the state school like there is in Indiana.

 

So what kind of coach does the school need to wrestle those Chicago kids away from the bigger programs?

 

And it's one thing to say Illinois is on par with Michigan State based on available talent, but the Spartans have been to 6 Final Fours since 1999 and Illinois has been to 1. On paper, MSU is the better program.

[bukie]

Illinois is a basketball program that has top 15 national history, and a state to recruit from within that produces the best talent year-in, year-out with no real in-state competition.

 

With that comes a level of expectation that is beyond what some coaches want to deal with, and the CPL business is sleazy and corrupt, which sucks for anyone not already on the inside.

 

I have no problem with how the Smart and Stevens pursuits were handled on either side. Smart and Stevens like where they are and are content without jumping to a high profile, high demand position. Illinois presented the position as the high profile, high demand position it should be. Neither side should have been expected to react differently.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Also, I love this picture of Groce on the Sun-times website:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=6XkziHlwOutbJ8BW8XAlCM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYsovZblqplUb$464OXTU1XcWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

 

Does it bother you Illini fans that he looks like Dave Kaplan (please credit @thekapman)

[bukie]

Also, I love this picture of Groce on the Sun-times website:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=6XkziHlwOutbJ8BW8XAlCM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYsovZblqplUb$464OXTU1XcWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

 

Does it bother you Illini fans that he looks like Dave Kaplan (please credit @thekapman)

I have no problem with how Kaplan looks. It's the mental diarrhea that spews forth from his mouth that is disgusting and makes him hard to look at.

[Guest]

I think the “rank” of the job is something that gets treated like a static value, but really it ebbs and flows. Sure, there are those blue blood jobs that will attract people from high majors even if they have several down seasons. Duke, UNC, UCLA, UK, KU, and several others as well, it’d take a decade of tanking for those schools to be unable to pull a successful high major coach. After that, there’s a lot of movement. High major schools that make up a good portion of those conferences have a better chance of pulling in a stronger coach depending on where the program is. For the purpose of this situation, MSU and OSU are absolutely better jobs than Illinois, and it’s not close. If Izzo or Matta went to the NBA tomorrow, every Illinois candidate that wasn’t an alum/former assistant would probably pick one of those schools over U of I. That doesn’t mean that MSU and OSU is a better gig for all eternity(although OSU is kinda like Texas with the resources to do so, but they’re the exception that proves the rule), but it does mean that Illinois simply isn’t on that level at the moment.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Illinois should hire Kaplan.

[Magnetic Curses]

Also, I love this picture of Groce on the Sun-times website:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=6XkziHlwOutbJ8BW8XAlCM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYsovZblqplUb$464OXTU1XcWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

 

i prefer this moment

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oieVH0s9shQ

[bukie]

I think the “rank” of the job is something that gets treated like a static value, but really it ebbs and flows. Sure, there are those blue blood jobs that will attract people from high majors even if they have several down seasons. Duke, UNC, UCLA, UK, KU, and several others as well, it’d take a decade of tanking for those schools to be unable to pull a successful high major coach. After that, there’s a lot of movement. High major schools that make up a good portion of those conferences have a better chance of pulling in a stronger coach depending on where the program is. For the purpose of this situation, MSU and OSU are absolutely better jobs than Illinois, and it’s not close. If Izzo or Matta went to the NBA tomorrow, every Illinois candidate that wasn’t an alum/former assistant would probably pick one of those schools over U of I. That doesn’t mean that MSU and OSU is a better gig for all eternity(although OSU is kinda like Texas with the resources to do so, but they’re the exception that proves the rule), but it does mean that Illinois simply isn’t on that level at the moment.

There's a difference from where Illinois is right now as a program, and where they could/should be. Illinois is in a unique position geographically where if all they did was pull in the best recruits from within the state, they'd have a top 5 recruiting class every year. And there's no real in-state competition for that. Right now, though, there's no pressure for high school recruits to go to a state school, because the school's reputation has hit a slide in the last couple years.

 

However, that doesn't mean the base isn't there for it to be a top 10 program nationally, and, really, they should be aiming for it. They offered Smart/Stevens enough to put it in that league, and they turned it down because they were content where they were. That's nobody's fault, and there's nothing Illinois should have done differently (aside from perhaps not making the numbers public).

[Derwood]

There's no in-state competition, true, but tons of out-of-state competition. Outside of staying close to home, why would a top Illinois recruit choose Illinois over Duke, Kentucky or North Carolina?

[illiniguy]

I think the “rank” of the job is something that gets treated like a static value, but really it ebbs and flows. Sure, there are those blue blood jobs that will attract people from high majors even if they have several down seasons. Duke, UNC, UCLA, UK, KU, and several others as well, it’d take a decade of tanking for those schools to be unable to pull a successful high major coach. After that, there’s a lot of movement. High major schools that make up a good portion of those conferences have a better chance of pulling in a stronger coach depending on where the program is. For the purpose of this situation, MSU and OSU are absolutely better jobs than Illinois, and it’s not close. If Izzo or Matta went to the NBA tomorrow, every Illinois candidate that wasn’t an alum/former assistant would probably pick one of those schools over U of I. That doesn’t mean that MSU and OSU is a better gig for all eternity(although OSU is kinda like Texas with the resources to do so, but they’re the exception that proves the rule), but it does mean that Illinois simply isn’t on that level at the moment.

There's a difference from where Illinois is right now as a program, and where they could/should be. Illinois is in a unique position geographically where if all they did was pull in the best recruits from within the state, they'd have a top 5 recruiting class every year. And there's no real in-state competition for that. Right now, though, there's no pressure for high school recruits to go to a state school, because the school's reputation has hit a slide in the last couple years.

 

However, that doesn't mean the base isn't there for it to be a top 10 program nationally, and, really, they should be aiming for it. They offered Smart/Stevens enough to put it in that league, and they turned it down because they were content where they were. That's nobody's fault, and there's nothing Illinois should have done differently (aside from perhaps not making the numbers public).

Making the numbers public on Smart was the right thing to do. Now the BOT can't say we didn't go hard after a minority candidate.

[SouthSideRyan]

There's no in-state competition, true, but tons of out-of-state competition. Outside of staying close to home, why would a top Illinois recruit choose Illinois over Duke, Kentucky or North Carolina?

 

You could say that about every state.

[hawkeyecub]

That's nobody's fault, and there's nothing Illinois should have done differently (aside from perhaps not making the numbers public).

 

I'm assuming Thomas did not use a search firm, correct?

 

That's the one big advantage they give you. They can contact everyone you're interested in, find out the numbers needed discreetly and avoid the public negativity.

[illiniguy]

That's nobody's fault, and there's nothing Illinois should have done differently (aside from perhaps not making the numbers public).

 

I'm assuming Thomas did not use a search firm, correct?

 

That's the one big advantage they give you. They can contact everyone you're interested in, find out the numbers needed discreetly and avoid the public negativity.

He did use one.

[Magnetic Curses]

There's no in-state competition, true, but tons of out-of-state competition. Outside of staying close to home, why would a top Illinois recruit choose Illinois over Duke, Kentucky or North Carolina?

 

why would anyone from anywhere?

 

the advantage illinois has is that it has access to illinois recruits that schools that aren't the blue-bloods don't. the question that you really want to ask is why would a top illinois recruit go out of state to a school that isn't a blue-blood?

 

furthermore, illinois was (is?) in on jabari parker because the coaches have been in on him since the beginning. the advantage here is that the coaches can build relationships with potential recruits at a younger age. that's an advantage that not even duke has.

 

hearing parker talk, the kid has some loyalty to the state, as well.

[illiniguy]

Hire Groce, retain Jerrance, use money saved from Groce hire Smith, get Parker, win championship.

[SouthSideRyan]

That's nobody's fault, and there's nothing Illinois should have done differently (aside from perhaps not making the numbers public).

 

I'm assuming Thomas did not use a search firm, correct?

 

That's the one big advantage they give you. They can contact everyone you're interested in, find out the numbers needed discreetly and avoid the public negativity.

He did use one.

 

Even the search firm hates him so they leaked all the numbers.

[illiniguy]

That's nobody's fault, and there's nothing Illinois should have done differently (aside from perhaps not making the numbers public).

 

I'm assuming Thomas did not use a search firm, correct?

 

That's the one big advantage they give you. They can contact everyone you're interested in, find out the numbers needed discreetly and avoid the public negativity.

He did use one.

 

Even the search firm hates him so they leaked all the numbers.

The Smart leak was strategic.

[Guest]

I think the “rank” of the job is something that gets treated like a static value, but really it ebbs and flows. Sure, there are those blue blood jobs that will attract people from high majors even if they have several down seasons. Duke, UNC, UCLA, UK, KU, and several others as well, it’d take a decade of tanking for those schools to be unable to pull a successful high major coach. After that, there’s a lot of movement. High major schools that make up a good portion of those conferences have a better chance of pulling in a stronger coach depending on where the program is. For the purpose of this situation, MSU and OSU are absolutely better jobs than Illinois, and it’s not close. If Izzo or Matta went to the NBA tomorrow, every Illinois candidate that wasn’t an alum/former assistant would probably pick one of those schools over U of I. That doesn’t mean that MSU and OSU is a better gig for all eternity(although OSU is kinda like Texas with the resources to do so, but they’re the exception that proves the rule), but it does mean that Illinois simply isn’t on that level at the moment.

There's a difference from where Illinois is right now as a program, and where they could/should be. Illinois is in a unique position geographically where if all they did was pull in the best recruits from within the state, they'd have a top 5 recruiting class every year. And there's no real in-state competition for that. Right now, though, there's no pressure for high school recruits to go to a state school, because the school's reputation has hit a slide in the last couple years.

 

However, that doesn't mean the base isn't there for it to be a top 10 program nationally, and, really, they should be aiming for it. They offered Smart/Stevens enough to put it in that league, and they turned it down because they were content where they were. That's nobody's fault, and there's nothing Illinois should have done differently (aside from perhaps not making the numbers public).

 

Right, that's kinda what I was saying in different words. Illinois is capable of the sustained success a program like MSU has had, and it might even be slightly easier for them to get there. Unfortunately for them though, they've won 2 tournament games in 7 years, which is why MSU would be a better situation in this snapshot in time.

[PosterToBeNamedLater]

There's no in-state competition, true, but tons of out-of-state competition. Outside of staying close to home, why would a top Illinois recruit choose Illinois over Duke, Kentucky or North Carolina?

 

Well there will always be the kid who chooses those schools or that Illinois has no chance for for various reasons (Anthony Davis), but there is so much talent that you could easily do very well with. To get the Dee Brown's, Sharon Collins', Evan Turner's, etc. Those should be very realistic. I know it probably just seems this way to me because I notice Illinois kids, but how often do you see a good team in the tournament that has some kid from Chicago as a major contributor?

 

To answer the question about what kind of a coach would we need, I think Self was the answer. He would get those kind of kids. It can be done. I think that is why I am trying to talk myself into Groce over some other candidates. I would rather take a chance on someone who might have that personality to make inroads into Chicago than someone who might be a pretty good coach but won't be able to get the talent. If this guy can recruit anything like Ohio State has the past few years we would be set. Screw being a 4th place team in the Big Ten. Self would have had us being first or second every year (not because he is some amazing coach)... and if we were 2nd, we would still be a 2-seed in the tourney.

Edited March 26, 2012 by PosterToBeNamedLater

[snoodmonger]

There's no in-state competition, true, but tons of out-of-state competition. Outside of staying close to home, why would a top Illinois recruit choose Illinois over Duke, Kentucky or North Carolina?

 

why would anyone from anywhere?

 

the advantage illinois has is that it has access to illinois recruits that schools that aren't the blue-bloods don't. the question that you really want to ask is why would a top illinois recruit go out of state to a school that isn't a blue-blood?

 

furthermore, illinois was (is?) in on jabari parker because the coaches have been in on him since the beginning. the advantage here is that the coaches can build relationships with potential recruits at a younger age. that's an advantage that not even duke has.

 

hearing parker talk, the kid has some loyalty to the state, as well.

 

why do you need to be the coach at the in-state school to be able to build relationships with those kids at an early age? Couldn't any coach do that just as easily?