Pujols signs with Angels pg 151

[Sammy Sofa]

Deals for players like that rarely are.

[MSG T]

If you can't get the deal you want for the guys, fine, that's understandable. But this notion that the Cubs shouldn't even be involved is just flat out stupid.

 

 

Exactly. If someone gets stupid, you bow out, but to not even try doesn't make any sense.

[davearm2]

Having a bunch of money available is not a real solid rationale for spending it foolishly.

 

It's a rationale for taking risks with very good chances for high reward other teams can't afford to when you'll still have a ton of money to construct/improve your team outside of that investment.

 

Do you want the Cubs to be a featherweight, constantly bouncing around the ring and able to skillfully dodge being hit, but can only land glancing, largely ineffective blows every once in a while, or do you want them to be the heavyweight, who can take those hits and then land knockout punches with much more regularity?

 

Ugh, I hate analogies.

I want the Cubs to be your proverbial heavyweight, but I want them to be smart about when and where they throw their big punches. This isn't the right spot for the haymaker.

 

Signing players like Fielder or Pujols can easily be smart for the Cubs even with bad years at the end of their deals. A player doesn't have to be a sound investment for the duration of their contract for it to be a smart signing.

It's smart if the price is right.

 

The prices we're hearing aren't in the "right" range.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The biggest reason it is sometimes okay for a team to "overpay" for elite production and suffer the backend is because they know that production in the short-term will be highly valuable to them because they are almost certain to be in a playoff race.

 

That doesn't apply to the Cubs.

 

Yet it could easily apply to them in just the second year of that kind of deal.

 

It certainly could. But it also might not.

 

I'm not saying that means "don't sign Pujols or Fielder." I'm just saying that the Cubs aren't in some sort of identical boat to all the other big market teams who sign big-money free agents.

 

They are in the same boat as almost all of them. The Yankees and Red Sox are the only two perpetual contenders that only add elite talent to elite teams.

 

Who are the examples of teams that have/should have paid free-agent prices for elite talent that are comparable to the Cubs?

[Guest]

When your threshold for "smart" leads you to the path that no very good players are worth signing ever, it might be worthwhile to re-evaluate that threshold.

[Hollandsworths mug]

Who are the examples of teams that have/should have paid free-agent prices for elite talent that are comparable to the Cubs?

 

http://www.nationalsportsbeat.com/images/logos/mlb/San_Francisco_Giants.jpg

[Guest]

Jon Heyman tweets that the Cardinals are unwilling to raise their offer to Albert Pujols from the $200-210 million over nine years that has been on the table for some time.

This is what happens, of course, when no one else is really bidding on your target. So far the only other offer anyone knows of was the Marlins’ less-than-competitive one. The Cardinals are not in the business of bidding against themselves, so unless or until someone comes in and tries to steal their first baseman, they should hold firm.

[davearm2]

When your threshold for "smart" leads you to the path that no very good players are worth signing ever, it might be worthwhile to re-evaluate that threshold.

:banghead:

[Guest]

When your threshold for "smart" leads you to the path that no very good players are worth signing ever, it might be worthwhile to re-evaluate that threshold.

:banghead:

 

Extremely rare for a great FA to meet the $/production standards you're looking for. Overpaying in those terms is necessary and being able to overpay is a major advantage the Cubs have compared to other teams.

[davearm2]

When your threshold for "smart" leads you to the path that no very good players are worth signing ever, it might be worthwhile to re-evaluate that threshold.

:banghead:

 

Extremely rare for a great FA to meet the $/production standards you're looking for. Overpaying in those terms is necessary and being able to overpay is a major advantage the Cubs have compared to other teams.

I'm not against overpaying FOR THE RIGHT PLAYER(S).

 

The right player(s) will have a better outlook for remaining healthy and productive than do Pujols and Fielder. I've given two examples of other recent 1Bs that fit (Tex and Gonzalez). They're not extremely rare. And they needn't play 1B either.

[Guest]

Gonzalez was never a free agent, and Teixeira's deal is going to wind up similar to Fielder's in all likelihood and worse than Pujols.

[Guest]

When your threshold for "smart" leads you to the path that no very good players are worth signing ever, it might be worthwhile to re-evaluate that threshold.

:banghead:

 

Extremely rare for a great FA to meet the $/production standards you're looking for. Overpaying in those terms is necessary and being able to overpay is a major advantage the Cubs have compared to other teams.

I'm not against overpaying FOR THE RIGHT PLAYER(S).

 

The right player(s) will have a better outlook for remaining healthy and productive than do Pujols and Fielder. I've given two examples of other recent 1Bs that fit (Tex and Gonzalez). They're not extremely rare. And they needn't play 1B either.

 

You keep offering up these two examples, but neither is a guy who will be available in the next decade. Who are some guys that the Cubs should skip out on Pujols and Fielder for? No one really jumps to mind as guys the Cubs should wait on to possibly be available, nor do they seem like guys the Cubs would have to skip out on even if they signed one of Pujols or Fielder.

 

Not only that, but when the next premium player comes along and the Yankees are offering up a greater chance at the playoffs and for bigger dollars than the Cubs can spend, the Cubs will be sitting their with egg on their face.

 

It's really simple. Fielder and Pujols are two of the best at their position. The Cubs have a hole at that position. They have the money to spend now and whatever they spend to land either of those guys should not be a detriment to the team payroll at any time over the life of their contracts. We have brilliant front office guys who won't allow one big contract to kill the future success of this team. They will do everything possible to complement that contract with above average production from below market value, whether through the farm or guys other teams can no longer afford or diamonds in the rough.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that either is the absolute perfect fit. But, they fill an immediate need and a long term need. And this big market team can afford to absorb it.

[NonProfitCow]

I'm not against overpaying FOR THE RIGHT PLAYER(S).

 

The right player(s) will have a better outlook for remaining healthy and productive than do Pujols and Fielder. I've given two examples of other recent 1Bs that fit (Tex and Gonzalez). They're not extremely rare. And they needn't play 1B either.

Tex was 29 and had a career high 152 OPS+. Pujols career worst is 150. In only 2 more seasons than Tex, Pujols has well more than 2x the WAR. The largest offer to Pujols so far is 8-9 at 200-210. That's a difference of 2.5 mil per year between the two. Inner circle HOF players that still have years left in their prime hitting the FA market is extremely rare.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

The Nationals are showing serious interest in Fielder and view Cuban outfielder Yoennis Cespedes as a potential Plan B, according to major-league sources.

 

Talks with Fielder hit a significant roadblock on Monday, one source said, prompting the Nats to revisit Cespedes as an alternative.

 

Cespedes, 26, is not yet on the open market; he first must establish temporary residence in the Dominican Republic, a development that is expected any day now.

 

After that, he would petition Major League Baseball to become a free agent. Approval is expected to come quickly, and the bidding on him could begin next week at the winter meetings in Dallas.

 

Fielder, 27, is the Nationals’ primary target, at least among offensive players, sources said. The Nats also are pursuing high-end starting pitchers, including free agents C.J. Wilson, Mark Buehrle and Roy Oswalt.

 

The situation is fluid on all fronts; the Cubs, Mariners and Rangers are among the other clubs expected to be in the mix for Fielder, and other teams figure to join them.

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/washington-nationals-show-interest-in-free-agent-1B-Prince-Fielder-Cuban-OF-Yoennis-Cespedes-112811

[UMFan83]

Still no definitive news that the Cubs are going after Pujols or Fielder. All just speculation right now.

[XZero771679666304]

Still no definitive news that the Cubs are going after Pujols or Fielder. All just speculation right now.

 

My personal sense is that the Cubs will pursue Fielder but not Pujols.

[dew1679666265]

Still no definitive news that the Cubs are going after Pujols or Fielder. All just speculation right now.

 

I'd be pretty surprised if Theo and co let any rumors slip on who we're legitimately interested in. They seem really secretive.

[XZero771679666304]

Still no definitive news that the Cubs are going after Pujols or Fielder. All just speculation right now.

 

I'd be pretty surprised if Theo and co let any rumors slip on who we're legitimately interested in. They seem really secretive.

 

I think the tendency of the new regime to not leak anything is primarily responsible for most of the "the Cubs aren't pursuing X" and "the Cubs won't be active on the X front" we've been hearing. To them, if they don't hear it's happening, it must not be happening.

 

When Theo and Co. do strike, you're going to hear a lot of "I didn't see that coming" from quite a few "insiders".

[davearm2]

When your threshold for "smart" leads you to the path that no very good players are worth signing ever, it might be worthwhile to re-evaluate that threshold.

:banghead:

 

Extremely rare for a great FA to meet the $/production standards you're looking for. Overpaying in those terms is necessary and being able to overpay is a major advantage the Cubs have compared to other teams.

I'm not against overpaying FOR THE RIGHT PLAYER(S).

 

The right player(s) will have a better outlook for remaining healthy and productive than do Pujols and Fielder. I've given two examples of other recent 1Bs that fit (Tex and Gonzalez). They're not extremely rare. And they needn't play 1B either.

 

You keep offering up these two examples, but neither is a guy who will be available in the next decade. Who are some guys that the Cubs should skip out on Pujols and Fielder for? No one really jumps to mind as guys the Cubs should wait on to possibly be available, nor do they seem like guys the Cubs would have to skip out on even if they signed one of Pujols or Fielder.

 

Not only that, but when the next premium player comes along and the Yankees are offering up a greater chance at the playoffs and for bigger dollars than the Cubs can spend, the Cubs will be sitting their with egg on their face.

 

It's really simple. Fielder and Pujols are two of the best at their position. The Cubs have a hole at that position. They have the money to spend now and whatever they spend to land either of those guys should not be a detriment to the team payroll at any time over the life of their contracts. We have brilliant front office guys who won't allow one big contract to kill the future success of this team. They will do everything possible to complement that contract with above average production from below market value, whether through the farm or guys other teams can no longer afford or diamonds in the rough.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that either is the absolute perfect fit. But, they fill an immediate need and a long term need. And this big market team can afford to absorb it.

I'm quite familiar with the pro-Pujols/Fielder talking points, trust me. This post is well stated, but it contains nothing new.

 

I just happen to disagree. I think if the Cubs sign either guy to the length and dollars I expect are required, they will end up regretting it.

 

Now if they do end up signing one of these guys, then of course I hope I'm wrong. That's how I see it, though.

[Guest]

Dave,

 

When you talk about Teixeira's deal being one that you'd have been more excited about, I have to think that your method of analysis would have yielded similar to worse results compared to Fielder. Also, while Fielder has a worse body, he has a much cleaner injury history than Teix up to his free agency year (including college).

 

I'm pretty sure that if you run that analysis in the manner in which you have run it, you'll find it is never a good idea to hand out large contracts.

[Epsteenie]

Rosenthal reporting Cubs are talking to both Pujols and Fielder

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Albert-Pujols-Prince-Fielder-Chicago-Cubs-pursuing-star-free-agents-112811

[Guest]

Rosenthal reporting Cubs are talking to both Pujols and Fielder

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Albert-Pujols-Prince-Fielder-Chicago-Cubs-pursuing-star-free-agents-112811

 

Shits about to start getting really real.

 

 

 

Pujols, 31, is nearly 3½ years older than Fielder, but sources say the Cubs are more willing to go long-term with Pujols, who is the better defender according to advanced metrics. Some teams, concerned by Fielder’s body would prefer him on a shorter, high-dollar deal.

 

By signing one of the two, the Cubs would ensure that they are set with a premier slugger as they try to return to prominence in the NL Central.

[Theo]

No way the Cubs can let St. Louis get a hometown discount. I think this is more about driving up the cost than anything else.

[shnsajax]

Now this is a good way to wake up in the morning.

[davell]

I'm afraid it's going to take an extremely sizable difference in offers to make Pujols decide to leave the Cards.