Pujols signs with Angels pg 151

[Guest]

But moreso Fielder.

 

I agree. :D

 

We're all well aware that you don't want the Cubs to sign Pojuls.

[A New Era]

But moreso Fielder.

 

I agree. :D

 

We're all well aware that you don't want the Cubs to sign Pojuls.

 

Actually if it happened I'm sure I'd be giggly like a little girl. Because of first 4 or so seasons would be great. Just not looking forward to his near 40s years. Plus as far as I know Fielder hasn't won a WS. With Fielder I think after awhile he would feel like a "Cub" because of his age and what he hasn't accomplished yet. With Pojuls it will feel to much like we are "borrowing" a cardinal. I just don't like that feeling. :P

[Sammy Sofa]

ALL HAIL POJULS.

[Brian]

With Pojuls it will feel to much like we are "borrowing" a cardinal. I just don't like that feeling. :P

 

Uh, your sig...

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

But moreso Fielder.

 

I agree. :D

 

We're all well aware that you don't want the Cubs to sign Pojuls.

 

Actually if it happened I'm sure I'd be giggly like a little girl. Because of first 4 or so seasons would be great. Just not looking forward to his near 40s years. Plus as far as I know Fielder hasn't won a WS. With Fielder I think after awhile he would feel like a "Cub" because of his age and what he hasn't accomplished yet. With Pojuls it will feel to much like we are "borrowing" a cardinal. I just don't like that feeling. :P

 

Say the Cubs sign Pujols. If he closes out nearly a decade here with a WS win or two plus whatever Pujols records he'll be setting, I'm sure some of us will be able to find a place in our hearts to admit he feels like a "Cub."

[KingCubsFan]

There's a difference between maintaining flexibility and not signing ANY players to a long term contract at all. And if you're going to sign someone to a long term contract, make it a superstar.

I don't disagree. But the important thing is signing the right player to a longterm contract.

 

There is a wide gulf between having a hole at a position and what the Cubs have at most spots. Dempster is a league average third starter. I know his ERA was terrible last year, but read my article on the 2011 rotation - he wasn't nearly as bad as his ERA would suggest.

I know it's common for people to point to his FIP as proof that he was unlucky. But his BABIP didn't stray too far from his career average. What really killed him was the increase in line drive percentage. That could be luck, but that could also be a decline in his stuff, which wouldn't be too surprising given his age. I don't have a problem with Dempster, but it's not a given that he'll go back to a mid 3's ERA.

 

Between Z, Wells, Samardzija & Cashner, we should be able to get league average production from the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation. If the team feels the need to move Z, it's not a hard spot to fill.

This is another assumption that isn't the guarantee you paint it to be. Samardzija has been nothing but awful as a starter. It would be nice if he could build on last year, but it shouldn't be a surprise if he struggles again as a starter. Cashner shouldn't be counted on for anything. Z and Wells could be average, but it's just as likely they repeat last year.

 

I'm going to assume you simply forgot about Garza.

Yep.

 

You already mentioned Soto & Starlin. Barney's nothing special, but he's not a gaping hole, either. His above average defense lifts his overall value to around league average at second base.

I don't get the acceptance of Barney. After April, he was the worst or second worst regular second baseman in baseball offensively. We're basically relying on questionable defensive metrics to derive value from him. He's a guy that needs to be replaced.

 

Soriano and Byrd are below the mean, but they're within shouting distance of it. Again, not true holes in the lineup. We have our top prospect breaking into the other spot in the outfield.

Again, guys on the downside of their careers that weren't even average last year. They're probably not going to get better next year, and they may get worse.

 

The bullpen is full of non-holes. Whom do you consider a hole out of Marmol, Marshall, Wood, Russell, Samardzija/Cashner? Beyond that in a bullpen, who really cares? (plus we still have many more good bp arms in the pipeline)

I don't really have a problem with the bullpen, but it's the easiest part of a team to build.

 

It's a team that is stuffed full of decent players. What it really needs are stars. And that's what people are arguing against signing for some reason.

The problem isn't just that we don't have stars. The problem is also the fact the best-case scenario for a lot of our players is that, if everything breaks in our favor, they're average. We need players with higher ceilings than that.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I don't disagree. But the important thing is signing the right player to a longterm contract.

 

The best player in the game and a historically great hitter falls into that category.

 

Hell, same with signing the 27 year old hefty fellow who hits doubles, might have the most HR power in the game right now, doesn't K, walks alot, and can probably get by with the glove for a for a few years. That guy is so good he can be argued as being a better buy than the best player in the game/historically great hitter.

 

It's not often superstars hit the FA market. When they do, for the most part they instantly become "the right player."

[dew1679666265]

MLBTR:

 

It doesn’t appear that the Cardinals will be able to boost their nine-year, $200MM offer to Albert Pujols by much.

[davell]

MLBTR:

 

It doesn’t appear that the Cardinals will be able to boost their nine-year, $200MM offer to Albert Pujols by much.

That's some pretty damning news, for the Cards, if true. Because that just ain't gonna get this one done.

[Brian]

I would consider that offer insulting

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I would consider that offer insulting

 

I'd be so insulted that I'd sign with the Cardinals' rich division rival.

[Sammy Sofa]

6 years/$200 million.

[ChiCubsFan]

But moreso Fielder.

 

I agree. :D

 

We're all well aware that you don't want the Cubs to sign Pojuls.

 

Actually if it happened I'm sure I'd be giggly like a little girl. Because of first 4 or so seasons would be great. Just not looking forward to his near 40s years. Plus as far as I know Fielder hasn't won a WS. With Fielder I think after awhile he would feel like a "Cub" because of his age and what he hasn't accomplished yet. With Pojuls it will feel to much like we are "borrowing" a cardinal. I just don't like that feeling. :P

 

1. I don't give a [expletive] how I feel as long as he brings us a WS.

 

2. The joy I would get from seeing my Cardinal friends crap themselves would make me love Albert Pujols so much.

[Conky]

6 years/$200 million.

 

Agreed. Is he left-handed?

 

nm.

[davearm2]

There's a difference between maintaining flexibility and not signing ANY players to a long term contract at all. And if you're going to sign someone to a long term contract, make it a superstar.

I don't disagree. But the important thing is signing the right player to a longterm contract.

 

There is a wide gulf between having a hole at a position and what the Cubs have at most spots. Dempster is a league average third starter. I know his ERA was terrible last year, but read my article on the 2011 rotation - he wasn't nearly as bad as his ERA would suggest.

I know it's common for people to point to his FIP as proof that he was unlucky. But his BABIP didn't stray too far from his career average. What really killed him was the increase in line drive percentage. That could be luck, but that could also be a decline in his stuff, which wouldn't be too surprising given his age. I don't have a problem with Dempster, but it's not a given that he'll go back to a mid 3's ERA.

 

Between Z, Wells, Samardzija & Cashner, we should be able to get league average production from the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation. If the team feels the need to move Z, it's not a hard spot to fill.

This is another assumption that isn't the guarantee you paint it to be. Samardzija has been nothing but awful as a starter. It would be nice if he could build on last year, but it shouldn't be a surprise if he struggles again as a starter. Cashner shouldn't be counted on for anything. Z and Wells could be average, but it's just as likely they repeat last year.

 

I'm going to assume you simply forgot about Garza.

Yep.

 

You already mentioned Soto & Starlin. Barney's nothing special, but he's not a gaping hole, either. His above average defense lifts his overall value to around league average at second base.

I don't get the acceptance of Barney. After April, he was the worst or second worst regular second baseman in baseball offensively. We're basically relying on questionable defensive metrics to derive value from him. He's a guy that needs to be replaced.

 

Soriano and Byrd are below the mean, but they're within shouting distance of it. Again, not true holes in the lineup. We have our top prospect breaking into the other spot in the outfield.

Again, guys on the downside of their careers that weren't even average last year. They're probably not going to get better next year, and they may get worse.

 

The bullpen is full of non-holes. Whom do you consider a hole out of Marmol, Marshall, Wood, Russell, Samardzija/Cashner? Beyond that in a bullpen, who really cares? (plus we still have many more good bp arms in the pipeline)

I don't really have a problem with the bullpen, but it's the easiest part of a team to build.

 

It's a team that is stuffed full of decent players. What it really needs are stars. And that's what people are arguing against signing for some reason.

The problem isn't just that we don't have stars. The problem is also the fact the best-case scenario for a lot of our players is that, if everything breaks in our favor, they're average. We need players with higher ceilings than that.

So much spot on here.

 

I haven't seen anyone here argue the Cubs should not sign ANY players to a long term contract at all. Yet anyone against signing Pujols/Fielder immediately gets slapped with this tag.

 

Right on with Barney. His bat is barely playable, and measuring his defensive value is difficult.

 

Right on with Soriano and Byrd. They're more likely to get worse than better.

 

The Pirates are also a team stuffed full of decent players (Walker Doumit McCutcheon Tabata Alvarez etc). I doubt anyone would make them a contender if they replace Overbay with Pujols or Fielder.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If you gave the Pirates another 20 million to spend after adding one of those guys, then I'd say they had a decent shot at it.

[Sammy Sofa]

So who should the Cubs be signing to a long term contract besides Fielder or Pujols before next season? Or does davearm2 think the Cubs shouldn't be signing anyone to a long term contract right now? OK, then what about after next season? No impact players on the horizon from the farm system, so I guess you wouldn't want to be signing someone like Kemp if he's a FA, too. So you just keep trudging along, avoiding big contracts until the perfect confluence of internal impact players and big name FA lines up and...oh no! The best FA available that offseason is 2014's version of Alfonso Soriano! Guess we have to wait until next year! Maybe!

[dew1679666265]

So much spot on here.

 

I haven't seen anyone here argue the Cubs should not sign ANY players to a long term contract at all. Yet anyone against signing Pujols/Fielder immediately gets slapped with this tag.

 

You've been pretty vocally opposed to signing marquee players this offseason or in the upcoming offseasons.

 

Just to be clear: I'm not opposed to shelling out a massive contract for an elite player. I do question the timing of it right now though. Ideally, Team Theo kills it in the next few years and gets that pipeline of cheap young talent flowing to the bigleagues... THEN you sign the 2014 or 2015 version of Pujols, so that the marquee guy's prime years coincide with the homegrown guys' cheap years.

 

Using up Pujols' remaining prime years while the bigleague team around him just isn't that good (sorry, it's not) seems misguided.

 

I could be reading it wrong, but questioning the timing of signing an elite player and talking about wasting Pujols' prime years sounds like you oppose the idea of signing elite players until the ideal time. Am I wrong in that interpretation?

 

The Pirates are also a team stuffed full of decent players (Walker Doumit McCutcheon Tabata Alvarez etc). I doubt anyone would make them a contender if they replace Overbay with Pujols or Fielder.

 

If they raised their payroll by $90 million at the same time, sure. Nobody who thinks the Cubs can have a chance to contend in 2012 is advocating signing Pujols and then standing firm. We can add other pieces that teams with less payroll couldn't to get improvements.

[Post Count Padder]

MLBTR:

 

It doesn’t appear that the Cardinals will be able to boost their nine-year, $200MM offer to Albert Pujols by much.

I like the sound of that. I don't think he's giving them that big a discount. That's still a lot of money, but he's gonna get a way better offer from someone else.

[davell]

To file in the "scrappy guys are good teammates and know what's going on" file, Eckstein says Pujols will stay if Oquendo is named manager. So here's to them being bowled over by Francona today.........

[SouthSideRyan]

Pujols probably hasn't spoken to Eckstein in 3 years.

[davearm2]

So who should the Cubs be signing to a long term contract besides Fielder or Pujols before next season? Or does davearm2 think the Cubs shouldn't be signing anyone to a long term contract right now? OK, then what about after next season? No impact players on the horizon from the farm system, so I guess you wouldn't want to be signing someone like Kemp if he's a FA, too. So you just keep trudging along, avoiding big contracts until the perfect confluence of internal impact players and big name FA lines up and...oh no! The best FA available that offseason is 2014's version of Alfonso Soriano! Guess we have to wait until next year! Maybe!

None of us has any idea where this team will be next year, so forming any judgements about Kemp or anyone else is premature.

 

And free agency isn't the only avenue to acquire impact players.

 

Turning down the tool factor a bit would be great. :good:

[Sammy Sofa]

So who should the Cubs be signing to a long term contract besides Fielder or Pujols before next season? Or does davearm2 think the Cubs shouldn't be signing anyone to a long term contract right now? OK, then what about after next season? No impact players on the horizon from the farm system, so I guess you wouldn't want to be signing someone like Kemp if he's a FA, too. So you just keep trudging along, avoiding big contracts until the perfect confluence of internal impact players and big name FA lines up and...oh no! The best FA available that offseason is 2014's version of Alfonso Soriano! Guess we have to wait until next year! Maybe!

None of us has any idea where this team will be next year, so forming any judgements about Kemp or anyone else is premature.

 

None of us has any idea where the team will be in any of the years going forward, so a big market team with money passing on true impact FA out of the hope that the stars align so that they can sign them (if they're available) only once they've developed good players internally seems shortsighted and foolhardy at best.

 

This highlights the main flaw with your approach in all of this; that you want to wait until things are just right/perfect to sign a big FA, yet rarely do you things lines up that way. Most of the time you're making trades or signing or drafting guessing/projecting/hoping how things will play out down the road as well as in the immediate future. Just because things don't look like a sure thing right away doesn't make it a bad investment.

 

And free agency isn't the only avenue to acquire impact players.

 

Never said it was, obviously. But it is an integral part of making a consistently winning team, especially for a team with money like the Cubs. They have the luxury of building their teams both from inside and nabbing big impact FA, so it's stupid for them to play the miser and wait only until "the time is right" to sign a FA simply because they won't immediately be favorites in the next season. You're signing players like that for the long haul and not just the next year; yet you keep talking about this like things go bust if they shell out for someone like Pujols or Fielder and don't have a winning season in 2012.

[The Savior]

I would give Pujols 6 years/240 without thinking twice about it quite honestly. Just get that guy on our team please. He's superhuman, age doesn't matter.

[davearm2]

So much spot on here.

 

I haven't seen anyone here argue the Cubs should not sign ANY players to a long term contract at all. Yet anyone against signing Pujols/Fielder immediately gets slapped with this tag.

 

You've been pretty vocally opposed to signing marquee players this offseason or in the upcoming offseasons.

 

Just to be clear: I'm not opposed to shelling out a massive contract for an elite player. I do question the timing of it right now though. Ideally, Team Theo kills it in the next few years and gets that pipeline of cheap young talent flowing to the bigleagues... THEN you sign the 2014 or 2015 version of Pujols, so that the marquee guy's prime years coincide with the homegrown guys' cheap years.

 

Using up Pujols' remaining prime years while the bigleague team around him just isn't that good (sorry, it's not) seems misguided.

 

I could be reading it wrong, but questioning the timing of signing an elite player and talking about wasting Pujols' prime years sounds like you oppose the idea of signing elite players until the ideal time. Am I wrong in that interpretation?

Somebody earlier said it best -- the Cubs have to guard against a scenario where their financial flexibility is severely compromised when they are one or two key players away from being great. Personally, I think it's going to take awhile to get to that point.

 

The fact is, I would be more than happy with either guy on a 6-year deal. It's really the 8-9-10 year stuff that makes me think they should walk away.