Impact of Win vs Vikings

[Tim]

Article- let me know your thoughts.

[rawaction]

Two ways to look at this game. 1. Lovie got the team to rally around him, respond to adversity, and beat one of the best teams in the NFC. Or 2. Lovie's defense (who he calls the plays for) gave up 30 2nd half points and blew a 17-point lead in the last 16 minutes of the game.

 

I enjoyed that win as much as anyone. But that game doesn't change anything for me. Honestly, I really like Lovie. But the bottom line is you are still going to have a team that is 7-9, 9-7, 7-9 since the Superbowl. You have a team whose defense looks stale and can't make key stops on 3rd down. You still have Tommie Harris who can only be motivated in spurts. The defense still relies on getting turnovers, but only could get the ball when Favre dropped it w/o contact and the league's leading fumbler coughs it up at the end.

 

The only way this team can salvage anything with Lovie as the head coach is to go out and get a big name OC and DC. And the only way that happens is if those decisions are made without Lovie, because he has no ties to any worthy OCs and his defensive ties are only to those who run a similarly tired scheme. So, Lovie would basically be a figurehead, lame duck coach. It's best to part ways and go in another direction.

[cubweiser03]

Chris Williams against Jared Allen, biggest impact of this game for the future of the Bears imo. Very excited to see him do well. Young LT on the most important position on the line, now work from there.

 

This win wont save RT, i didnt think Lovie was going to get fired after this year anyway so i dont think this W saves his job anymore than its already been saved. Hey i saw Gilbert on the field, i was watching the game at a bar so its hard to play close attention to everything to see how he played.

 

Devin Part 2, nice to see him do well too. Again, i firmly believe the major flaws on this offense is the O coach and oline. Coach can be fixed quickly, oline is 2-3 years. The skill positions im good with, yes they could use a Reggie Wayne but the biggest impact they can make to fix the team is the oline. It was the QB and LT before this year, those are fixed and we saw flashes of that last night.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The biggest impact in my opinion is that it makes it possible for the Cowboys to get the #2 seed. :D

[soapy]

The defense still relies on getting turnovers, but only could get the ball when Favre dropped it w/o contact and the league's leading fumbler coughs it up at the end.

 

Yes. Without the blocked EP or Peterson's fumble in OT, we're not having this conversation and it's another big choke job by the Bears.

[rawaction]

Chris Williams against Jared Allen, biggest impact of this game for the future of the Bears imo. Very excited to see him do well. Young LT on the most important position on the line, now work from there.

 

This win wont save RT, i didnt think Lovie was going to get fired after this year anyway so i dont think this W saves his job anymore than its already been saved. Hey i saw Gilbert on the field, i was watching the game at a bar so its hard to play close attention to everything to see how he played.

 

Devin Part 2, nice to see him do well too. Again, i firmly believe the major flaws on this offense is the O coach and oline. Coach can be fixed quickly, oline is 2-3 years. The skill positions im good with, yes they could use a Reggie Wayne but the biggest impact they can make to fix the team is the oline. It was the QB and LT before this year, those are fixed and we saw flashes of that last night.

 

I don't think the line will necessarily take 2-3 years to fix. Atlanta rebuilt their line almost overnight, after the Vick/Petrino fiasco. As did Carolina. Miami and Cleveland saw their line play dramatically improve, though that was based on high picks used on Jake Long and Joe Thomas respectively.

 

Williams already looks like an improvement over Pace at LT. Shaffer has actually played better than Williams did at RT the last few games. Get a Logan Mankins at G and improve over the disaster that is Olin Kreutz and the Bears go from the worst line in the NFL to probably middle of the pack at worst.

[Guest]

The defense still relies on getting turnovers, but only could get the ball when Favre dropped it w/o contact and the league's leading fumbler coughs it up at the end.

 

Yes. Without the blocked EP or Peterson's fumble in OT, we're not having this conversation and it's another big choke job by the Bears.

to be fair, they also dropped a gimme interception and had another (tough) one go right through their hands.

[Banedon]

The defense still relies on getting turnovers, but only could get the ball when Favre dropped it w/o contact and the league's leading fumbler coughs it up at the end.

 

Yes. Without the blocked EP or Peterson's fumble in OT, we're not having this conversation and it's another big choke job by the Bears.

to be fair, they also dropped a gimme interception and had another (tough) one go right through their hands.

 

Yeah...the "could/woulda/what if" game is always an easy one to play.

[JonJayCutler]

But the bottom line is you are still going to have a team that is 7-9, 9-7, 7-9 since the Superbowl.

 

It doesn't make a bit of difference, but I wouldn't assume 7-9 just yet. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all for the Bears to fall flat on their face after a huge win on MNF, even though it is the Lions with Stanton/Culpepper.

[rawaction]

But the bottom line is you are still going to have a team that is 7-9, 9-7, 7-9 since the Superbowl.

 

It doesn't make a bit of difference, but I wouldn't assume 7-9 just yet. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all for the Bears to fall flat on their face after a huge win on MNF, even though it is the Lions with Stanton/Culpepper.

 

True. 6-10 would help my point though.

[DivineBovine]

This game showed me even more that Lovie and his staff, namely Ron Turner, should be fired.

 

The Bears actually looked like a decent team yesterday. At least not a team terribly lacking in talent, as so many had thought. People shouldn't be asking if this win could save the coaching staff. The question I have is why the team has sucked so badly so many times this year. They have continually failed to win close winnable games. They have gotten absolutely blown out by teams who didn't even need to punt for entire halves. If the team can look pretty good against one of the better teams in the league, then it can't be all about the talent.

 

Some specific reasons why the coaching staff needs to go:

 

1) Second half: After the coaching staff seemed to have come out with a decent good game plan and put together a good half, the Vikings pretty much had there way in the second half. This shows how outclassed Lovie and his staff seem to be whenever the Bears take the field. Maybe they get lucky sometimes. But other coaches are better at adjusting to the game.

 

2) Offensive line: Sure, the Bears seem to have big problems here. But really, how much of this is coaching? I happen to think offensive line play is more about coaching than people seem to think. It's not as simple as a 300 pounder keeping another 300 pounder away from your QB or RB. Take the first half. Nobody touched Cutler. Forte actually got some yards. During parts of the second half, the defense collapsed on Cutler before he could even complete his 5 step drop. The same players on both sides of the ball. Why is that? Because the coaching sucks. Line play relies on talent of course. But it also relies on movement, matchups, plays, schemes. Here is where the offensive line has consistently been outmatched for years. Maybe Lovie and Turner got lucky again in designing a good game plan for the line in the first half. It certainly didn't last long.

 

3) Personnel decisions: It makes you wonder why guys like Aromashodu or Williams haven't been used like they were yesterday for much of the year. I blame the coaches.

 

 

To me, it looked like Lovie and Ron just got lucky by pushing the right buttons in the first half. It was clearly luck, as the play of the Bears in the first half were the exception rather than the rule this year. The coaches showed their true colors in the second half, where they were outclassed, and they actually were lucky to win the game.

 

Coaching is more important in football than in any other sport. You can't win when you have inferior coaches running the show. I'd like to know how good they could be with a real coach. This team hasn't had a head coach that has won for the Bears or any other team since Ditka. And even he couldn't win with any other team.

[minnesotacubsfan]

I'm really not sure what your article is about

[Guest]

I'm really not sure what your article is about

What is unclear? It's about how the win vs the Vikings may have changed perception about several things heading into the offseason.

[Soul]

If that win saves Lovie, then it is a serious misread by the organization that will result in more bad play next year, and perhaps even beyond.

 

As happy as I am for the Bears' win, the ultimate question that must be asked is: where has this been all year? There have been no big acquisitions, no huge changes. All the players and possibilities that showed up Monday night have been available to this coaching staff all year long. The game plan was solid for the first time in weeks. Which championship-proven coaching staffs produce a solid gameplan every, oh, 5 weeks or so (or longer)? None come to mind. The players -- some of our biggest performers on Monday -- have been pigeonholed all year due to this regime's misjudgement of their talent. We've been seeing players like Aromashodu & Bennett, who look like they are passable to solid NFL talent, relegated to bench/practice squad duty while lesser players take the field. We've seen serious misreads on talent for players who left the organization, such as Chris Harris and Cedric Benson, come back to bite us. All of these things point to staff incompetence. Angelo can also be argued to be incompetent, but since I'm convinced that his outster is not in play, I'll leave him out of the equation for now.

 

No. If anything, Monday's win shows more than ever that the Lovie administration must be impeached. And I personally believe, if a better coach is brought in, that this roster will suddenly begin to look like it has fewer holes.

[Wilson A2000]

What this game showed, though, is that the talent has been there all along to compete with the best teams in the league. What it has lacked is the coaching and development to be consistent throughout the season.

 

I am not yet convinced that the talent the Bears showed Monday night is really there. I think Monday was a step in the right direction, but there have been too many other games this year that have shown otherwise. Was Monday a mirage, or the real thing?

[jersey cubs fan]

What this game showed, though, is that the talent has been there all along to compete with the best teams in the league. What it has lacked is the coaching and development to be consistent throughout the season.

 

I am not yet convinced that the talent the Bears showed Monday night is really there. I think Monday was a step in the right direction, but there have been too many other games this year that have shown otherwise. Was Monday a mirage, or the real thing?

 

The fact that the talent showed up means it's there. They didn't show up before mostly because of a poor coaching that failed to get the most out of the talent. This is not a coaching staff that can be trusted to put the best guys on the field, put guys in the best position to win, get the best effort out of players, or utilizing their talents in the best way possible. This is not the most talented team in the league, but it is more talented than 6-9. They were the most talented team in the conference in 2006, and they got 1 great year out of it. At least with the Ditka teams that fell short, they had multiple great seasons. And this has nothing to do with the salary cap as they were not forced to let go of anybody after 2006, it was the same group and it fell apart.

[Guest]

What this game showed, though, is that the talent has been there all along to compete with the best teams in the league. What it has lacked is the coaching and development to be consistent throughout the season.

 

I am not yet convinced that the talent the Bears showed Monday night is really there. I think Monday was a step in the right direction, but there have been too many other games this year that have shown otherwise. Was Monday a mirage, or the real thing?

 

Cutler took a lot of heat earlier this season with all of the picks, but last night was a prime example of what he can do if he's given the time to find an open receiver. There were a couple of times that receivers failed on some routes that could have gone for big yards (Knox gave up on a play that had touchdown written all over it), but Cutler has taken a lot of heat for all the interceptions he's thrown this year, but most of those come at the expense of a horrible line. The same guys who formed such a horrible line were in there again last night, but in different positions.

 

A competent line will make every other aspect of your offense look better. I think Cutler probably changed his game to fit what the offensive line gave him to work with, which resulted in quicker patterns, quicker throws and less effectiveness overall. Thinking that someone will be on your ass before you finish your dropback can destroy your confidence to get the pass where it needs to be. We watched all year how Cutler tried to get a pass off rather than take a sack, which further illustrates my point.

 

The defense is missing numerous play makers at many important positions. Any team that has to go with a back up DE, MLB, OLB and best DB is going to be in a world of hurts on defense. Even the best teams in the league don't have starter capable fillers to step in for that many players on defense.

 

To me, this season has been ruined by the inability to give Cutler the protection he needs to complete passes to his inexperienced receiving corps. If he got the kind of protection he got Monday night, this team would probably be looking at a playoff bid today instead of packing up the truck after this coming weekend.

[jersey cubs fan]

but Cutler has taken a lot of heat for all the interceptions he's thrown this year, but most of those come at the expense of a horrible line.

 

I would bet this is untrue. I think most of those were clearly examples of horrible decision making. Poor blocking, a lack of one great receiver and a weak scheme contributed, (not to mention a lack of coaching to not make those poor decisions) but the picks were mostly his fault. He did have a couple should have been called INTs, receiver tips and bad routes, but again, the volume cannot be explained away.

[Guest]

but Cutler has taken a lot of heat for all the interceptions he's thrown this year, but most of those come at the expense of a horrible line.

 

I would bet this is untrue. I think most of those were clearly examples of horrible decision making. Poor blocking, a lack of one great receiver and a weak scheme contributed, (not to mention a lack of coaching to not make those poor decisions) but the picks were mostly his fault. He did have a couple should have been called INTs, receiver tips and bad routes, but again, the volume cannot be explained away.

 

If you have less than half the time a typical NFL quarterback has to make a throw, chances are good you are throwing before the play has fully developed. If you have to design plays that require throwing that quickly, you are limiting the amount of plays you can make. When half of your throwing downs are timing plays, you know that the offensive line is not getting the job done. I will agree that a lot of his INT's were badly thrown balls, but I wonder how many of those might not have been INT's at all if he had the time to throw the ball that other NFL QB's enjoy.

 

I may be completely wrong, but I sort of sensed that he was hearing footsteps (whether they were there or not) as the season progressed. The blind side was a severe weakness that he constantly had to worry about on each drop back.

 

You may be right that most of it is on him. I'm not sure why he became so fearful of the sack or if he has always been fearful of the sack, because he seems like he's willing to put his head down and take a solid hit when he heads down the field. That play last night where he tucked the ball, put his head down and bounced right off a linebacker's shoulder and got another 5 yards was a perfect example. Why so skiddish in the pocket? I think his line let him down too many times.

[jersey cubs fan]

If you have less than half the time a typical NFL quarterback has to make a throw, chances are good you are throwing before the play has fully developed. If you have to design plays that require throwing that quickly, you are limiting the amount of plays you can make. When half of your throwing downs are timing plays, you know that the offensive line is not getting the job done. I will agree that a lot of his INT's were badly thrown balls, but I wonder how many of those might not have been INT's at all if he had the time to throw the ball that other NFL QB's enjoy.

 

I may be completely wrong, but I sort of sensed that he was hearing footsteps (whether they were there or not) as the season progressed. The blind side was a severe weakness that he constantly had to worry about on each drop back.

 

You may be right that most of it is on him. I'm not sure why he became so fearful of the sack or if he has always been fearful of the sack, because he seems like he's willing to put his head down and take a solid hit when he heads down the field. That play last night where he tucked the ball, put his head down and bounced right off a linebacker's shoulder and got another 5 yards was a perfect example. Why so skiddish in the pocket? I think his line let him down too many times.

 

I think most of what you said definitely happened, but it still doesn't explain many of the picks in the red zone, and a lot of the other clearly bad decisions. He always had the reputation as a "forcer" even in Denver with a better scheme, better blocking and a superstar receiver to help in bailout situations. I just feel you are a bit to quick to rationalize away his own mistakes, but he has to be held accountable.

[Wilson A2000]

 

The fact that the talent showed up means it's there. They didn't show up before mostly because of a poor coaching that failed to get the most out of the talent. This is not a coaching staff that can be trusted to put the best guys on the field, put guys in the best position to win, get the best effort out of players, or utilizing their talents in the best way possible. This is not the most talented team in the league, but it is more talented than 6-9. They were the most talented team in the conference in 2006, and they got 1 great year out of it. At least with the Ditka teams that fell short, they had multiple great seasons. And this has nothing to do with the salary cap as they were not forced to let go of anybody after 2006, it was the same group and it fell apart.

 

You make some decent points, but I am not yet convinced that Chris Williams is a solid LT. I saw some good signs, but even a bad LT or RT has a good game now and again. Maybe Williams is playing better because LT is his natural position. But I can't fault the Bears for playing Pace there. I too thought Pace at LT was better than Williams at the beginning of the season. The defensive line pressured Favre pretty decently Monday. I don't think the coaching was the reason that Tommie Harris has played far below average this year. He was injured and doesn't give all the effort he can from what I have seen. Brown and Walle had average to below average years. I don't think the scheme was at fault - they just have average talent. The Bears are a bad blitzing team. They get plugged at the line. But you still have to blitz. I don't think that is the result of bad coaching, but guys just not being very good at finding holes and pressuring the QB. I knew Cutler had talent, so I agree with you on that one. He just needed time in the pocket. But I will admit that Turner should have called for more plays with Cutler moving around in the pocket or bootlegging to one side, especially because Cutler had been under pressure the entire year. The coaching staff did fail in that regard. But the Bears of Monday night are still not a playoff team. The Vikings and Packers are still better. And the Cowboys, Eagles, Giants, or Falcons are too.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't think the coaching was the reason that Tommie Harris has played far below average this year. He was injured and doesn't give all the effort he can from what I have seen.

 

The Tommie Harris injury excuse is done. And it's the coach's job to get max effort. If they can do it by coddling guys, great, if they have to light a fire, do it. But if Tommie dogs it, then that reflects poorly on Lovie and Marinelli. If Anderson, Ogunleye and Brown can be a menace for a season and then fade away for three years, then that reflects poorly on the coaches. If this defense can dominate for a year and a half, and with the same personel fall to below average, that reflects poorly on the coaches. The problem with the scheme is it requires top notch athletes at the peak of their skills, and makes no room for adjustments to players' ages.

[Guest]

 

The fact that the talent showed up means it's there. They didn't show up before mostly because of a poor coaching that failed to get the most out of the talent. This is not a coaching staff that can be trusted to put the best guys on the field, put guys in the best position to win, get the best effort out of players, or utilizing their talents in the best way possible. This is not the most talented team in the league, but it is more talented than 6-9. They were the most talented team in the conference in 2006, and they got 1 great year out of it. At least with the Ditka teams that fell short, they had multiple great seasons. And this has nothing to do with the salary cap as they were not forced to let go of anybody after 2006, it was the same group and it fell apart.

 

You make some decent points, but I am not yet convinced that Chris Williams is a solid LT. I saw some good signs, but even a bad LT or RT has a good game now and again. Maybe Williams is playing better because LT is his natural position. But I can't fault the Bears for playing Pace there. I too thought Pace at LT was better than Williams at the beginning of the season. The defensive line pressured Favre pretty decently Monday. I don't think the coaching was the reason that Tommie Harris has played far below average this year. He was injured and doesn't give all the effort he can from what I have seen. Brown and Walle had average to below average years. I don't think the scheme was at fault - they just have average talent. The Bears are a bad blitzing team. They get plugged at the line. But you still have to blitz. I don't think that is the result of bad coaching, but guys just not being very good at finding holes and pressuring the QB. I knew Cutler had talent, so I agree with you on that one. He just needed time in the pocket. But I will admit that Turner should have called for more plays with Cutler moving around in the pocket or bootlegging to one side, especially because Cutler had been under pressure the entire year. The coaching staff did fail in that regard. But the Bears of Monday night are still not a playoff team. The Vikings and Packers are still better. And the Cowboys, Eagles, Giants, or Falcons are too.

 

Williams was defending against Pro Bowl DE Jared Allen. Call it just a good game, but if Williams can keep him from getting to the QB, I like his chances against anyone.

[minnesotacubsfan]

I'm really not sure what your article is about

What is unclear? It's about how the win vs the Vikings may have changed perception about several things heading into the offseason.

 

well, its 5 paragraphs long and doesn't shed any new light or thoughts on the situation. The title has to do with Lovie's job, and only the last paragraph actually mentions him. I don't understand who is your intended audience is (nsbb or the public at large) or what the subject really is. I was expecting to see a much better thought out discussion on how the emergence of Aroshamodu implicates Lovie's inability to judge talent (which I'm not sure is the case, especially if RT makes personnel decisions), or if it was to illustrate the new-found fountain of youth we may (or may not) have. All it really says is we have a couple of kids who did some nice things and Lovie's job security is more or less irrelevant in respect to the game.

 

In total, all it really did was spur more convo here on the subject, so I'm wondering whats the point of the other site?

[Soul]

If you have less than half the time a typical NFL quarterback has to make a throw, chances are good you are throwing before the play has fully developed. If you have to design plays that require throwing that quickly, you are limiting the amount of plays you can make. When half of your throwing downs are timing plays, you know that the offensive line is not getting the job done. I will agree that a lot of his INT's were badly thrown balls, but I wonder how many of those might not have been INT's at all if he had the time to throw the ball that other NFL QB's enjoy.

 

I may be completely wrong, but I sort of sensed that he was hearing footsteps (whether they were there or not) as the season progressed. The blind side was a severe weakness that he constantly had to worry about on each drop back.

 

You may be right that most of it is on him. I'm not sure why he became so fearful of the sack or if he has always been fearful of the sack, because he seems like he's willing to put his head down and take a solid hit when he heads down the field. That play last night where he tucked the ball, put his head down and bounced right off a linebacker's shoulder and got another 5 yards was a perfect example. Why so skiddish in the pocket? I think his line let him down too many times.

 

I think most of what you said definitely happened, but it still doesn't explain many of the picks in the red zone, and a lot of the other clearly bad decisions. He always had the reputation as a "forcer" even in Denver with a better scheme, better blocking and a superstar receiver to help in bailout situations. I just feel you are a bit to quick to rationalize away his own mistakes, but he has to be held accountable.

 

He's still a young QB, prone to making some stupid errors. One thing is for sure though: without better coaching, he will never realize his potential. The potential we all just saw Monday night.