Re: Cubs Step up pursuit of Byrd

[Guest]

too bad we don't still have Heilman to trade for him. :)

[Guest]

OK then, so apparently what folks really want is not a new GM, but rather for the Cub to no longer be a big-market team, since big-market teams inherently waste lots of money.

No, I don't really think you're correctly stating what it is that people want.

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

step 1.

[Sever82]

If we acquire Pie, won't that just make Reed Johnson (or similar garbage) the starting CF by April 9th?

 

Actually nevermind i forgot about Fuld for some reason. I think Pie has more potential but if you have fuld already no reason to pay for another similar player with slightly more upside.

 

After Levine's chat and what has been said in articles, its starting to feel more like the cubs aren't going to sign byrd or pods or ankiel but are instead going to go the trade route. Other than Nate McClouth and maybe Cabrera still, i can't think of a CF option that can be traded for and is worth it.

[Sever82]

If we acquire Pie, won't that just make Reed Johnson (or similar garbage) the starting CF by April 9th?

 

Actually nevermind i forgot about Fuld for some reason. I think Pie has more potential but if you have fuld already no reason to pay for another similar player with slightly more upside.

 

After Levine's chat and what has been said in articles, its starting to feel more like the cubs aren't going to sign byrd or pods or ankiel but are instead going to go the trade route. Other than Nate McClouth and maybe Cabrera still, i can't think of a CF option that can be traded for and is worth it.

[davearm2]

OK then, so apparently what folks really want is not a new GM, but rather for the Cub to no longer be a big-market team, since big-market teams inherently waste lots of money.

No, I don't really think you're correctly stating what it is that people want.

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

step 1.

Are you sure about that?

 

Hendry does not have the excuse that he has a limited payroll, or limited scouting, or limited anything. The Cubs GM has resources that only the Red Sox and Yankees GM's enjoy, and when comparing those 3 teams, Hendry isn't even close to them in level of production.

 

Totally agree, i can't stand hearing the Chicago Media support this guy or continue to back him by saying "Well hendry is the first cubs GM to have back to back playoff teams" I mean who wouldn't be with that payroll and those resources. He's also the first GM to have a cubs team that is top three in payroll . Hendry just doesn't know how to spend money. We have the third highest payroll but yet we're not talked about in the same regard as the Phils, Yanks, red Sox, etc. Except for Piniella, i feel the cubs are in the same situation as the bears in which ownership isn't putting much blame in the GM and instead looking at the coach more. If the cubs suck again, i dont see any reason to keep hendry. I think Hendry should be fired now but i doubt that happens.

 

No reasonable person here is going to say that Hendry is the worst general manager in all of baseball. But most reasonable people would agree that he wastes resources to whimsically, seemingly assuming that the bottom of the well is always deeper.

 

Given the resources and time he has been allocated, the Cubs should've done more in his tenure.

 

Every other team is restricting their budgets even more during tough economic times. Hendry's budget has grown during that time. 3 playoff appearances in 7 years is not even half the time, and it's completely unacceptable given the resources he has to work with

 

Surely you can't be oblivious to how deeply the "Hendry wastes money" theme runs around here.

[SouthSideRyan]

Pie has way more upside than Fuld.

[jersey cubs fan]

Surely you can't be oblivious to how deeply the "Hendry wastes money" theme runs around here.

 

Surely you can't be oblivious to the fact that in a weak division Hendry's teams have averaged less than 84 wins per year, more or less in line with the Florida Marlins and well below the pace of many similarly financed teams (including those with less resources).

 

He's had more than enough time and has done a poor job, there's no argument to the contrary.

[Sever82]

Pie has way more upside than Fuld.

 

I know i said that, i wouldn't say he has way more though. Pie hasn't exactly showed great potential to this point. Depends on what he does next year.

[jersey cubs fan]

Pie has way more upside than Fuld.

 

I know i said that, i wouldn't say he has way more though. Pie hasn't exactly showed great potential to this point. Depends on what he does next year.

 

No, you didn't say that. You said slighly more upside.

[Sever82]

Surely you can't be oblivious to how deeply the "Hendry wastes money" theme runs around here.

 

Surely you can't be oblivious to the fact that in a weak division Hendry's teams have averaged less than 84 wins per year, more or less in line with the Florida Marlins and well below the pace of many similarly financed teams (including those with less resources).

 

He's had more than enough time and has done a poor job, there's no argument to the contrary.

 

Wait..are people still arguing that hendry has done an "Ok" for the cubs? Not sure how you can argue that he's done the cubs more good than bad.

[inari]

Pie has way more upside than Fuld.

 

I know i said that, i wouldn't say he has way more though. Pie hasn't exactly showed great potential to this point. Depends on what he does next year.

 

Check out Pie's second half stats from last year.

[soapy]

OK then, so apparently what folks really want is not a new GM, but rather for the Cub to no longer be a big-market team, since big-market teams inherently waste lots of money.

No, I don't really think you're correctly stating what it is that people want.

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

 

there is absolutely no way that you are this dense. no [expletive] way.

[Guancous]

OK then, so apparently what folks really want is not a new GM, but rather for the Cub to no longer be a big-market team, since big-market teams inherently waste lots of money.

No, I don't really think you're correctly stating what it is that people want.

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

step 1.

 

I'd say step 3. Signing Johnny Damon for 3/$30 is inefficient. Signing Carlos Silva to 2/$24 is a fireable offense.

[Sever82]

Pie has way more upside than Fuld.

 

I know i said that, i wouldn't say he has way more though. Pie hasn't exactly showed great potential to this point. Depends on what he does next year.

 

Check out Pie's second half stats from last year.

 

I did, so because he had one pretty good month, we call him a high upside player? Take that august away and what do you have. Sorry, not about to overhype Pie because he got hot one month. Are you going to say the same about Ronny cedeno's april month.

[inari]

Pie has way more upside than Fuld.

 

I know i said that, i wouldn't say he has way more though. Pie hasn't exactly showed great potential to this point. Depends on what he does next year.

 

Check out Pie's second half stats from last year.

 

I did, so because he had one pretty good month, we call him a high upside player? Take that august away and what do you have. Sorry, not about to overhype Pie because he got hot one month. Are you going to say the same about Ronny cedeno's april month.

 

There's also his entire body of work in the minor leagues.

 

And use question marks. Begging you.

[SouthSideRyan]

A guy doesn't have to have sustained success in the majors in order to have upside.

 

Josh Vitters has more upside than Ryan Theriot even though Theriot's established himself as a starter over the past 3 years and Vitters will be in AA.

[Guest]

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

step 1.

Are you sure about that?

 

-- snipped out lots of quotes that back up #1 --

 

Surely you can't be oblivious to how deeply the "Hendry wastes money" theme runs around here.

surely you can't pretend to believe that's the only thing people have against Hendry.

[Rob]

Back to a previous conversation, davearm, where did you find payroll figures for all teams the last 7 years?

[davearm2]

Back to a previous conversation, davearm, where did you find payroll figures for all teams the last 7 years?

USA Today's salary database. http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/default.aspx

 

I had to extract them one year at a time, but that was no biggie.

[davearm2]

OK then, so apparently what folks really want is not a new GM, but rather for the Cub to no longer be a big-market team, since big-market teams inherently waste lots of money.

No, I don't really think you're correctly stating what it is that people want.

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

 

there is absolutely no way that you are this dense. no [expletive] way.

I'm neither dense nor obtuse. But I can recognize and illustrate the logical flaws being espoused here.

 

The best, and perhaps only way to avoid wasting money is to operate your club like the Marlins have.

 

So don't get on Hendry for his foolish spending unless you would prefer that alternative, because all big-market teams have a few expensive, high-profile screwups on their resume. It goes with the territory.

[davearm2]

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

step 1.

Are you sure about that?

 

-- snipped out lots of quotes that back up #1 --

 

Surely you can't be oblivious to how deeply the "Hendry wastes money" theme runs around here.

surely you can't pretend to believe that's the only thing people have against Hendry.

I don't, and haven't.

[Guest]

Ok then where'd I jump the tracks:

 

Chorus: "Hendry wastes too much money so we need a new GM."

Davearm: "Hendry doesn't spend differently or less effectively than other big-market teams."

Tim: "All big-market teams waste money."

Davearm: "So the big-market thing is the problem, not the GM."

Tim: "Wrong."

Davearm: :confused:

step 1.

Are you sure about that?

 

-- snipped out lots of quotes that back up #1 --

 

Surely you can't be oblivious to how deeply the "Hendry wastes money" theme runs around here.

surely you can't pretend to believe that's the only thing people have against Hendry.

I don't, and haven't.

Well, that's pretty clearly a flaw in your #1 statement.

[jersey cubs fan]

The best, and perhaps only way to avoid wasting money is to operate your club like the Marlins have.

 

Seriously, you don't even care about trying now.

[WilcoFan]

I'm not interested in the tit-for-tat stuff, so I rarely post, but it seems to me that davearm is not defending Hendry's overall tenure here. He is simply dealing in one FINITE area: allocation of funds to established major leaguers. And in this very FINITE area, Hendry fares at or around the level of most big market GMs.

 

His argument seems to be that Hendry fares around big-market team average as it relates to "wasted" money on veteran players. This, of course, is not a defense of Hendry, because his greatest failure as GM is not that he wastes money on overpaid veterans, but that he has been unable to build a farm system of any offensive merit so offset the inevitable mistakes made when pursuing veterans. What differentiates good big market GMs (such as Epstein) from mediocre to poor ones (such as Hendry) is that good big market GMs are able to develop young players who can be much better than replacement level (such as Youkilis, Pedroia, et. al.), whereas poor big market GMs rely almost exclusively on their ability to spend and when, inevitably, the success rate is hit or miss, they have nothing within their system to pick up the slack.

 

The ridiculous contracts of Soriano, etc., are especially noteworthy due to the fact that the best he can produce from the system are players like Theriot (who is a replacement level player at best).

 

So the answer to davearm is not that his point in this case is wrong, but that it not the reason why Hendry should no longer be the General Manager.

[Sever82]

A guy doesn't have to have sustained success in the majors in order to have upside.

 

Josh Vitters has more upside than Ryan Theriot even though Theriot's established himself as a starter over the past 3 years and Vitters will be in AA.

 

That makes no sense. Vitters hasn't touched the majors while Theriot has. If Vitters had some major league experience than you can compare him to Theriot's early major league career. Vitters does have more potential based on the skills he possess that scouts have observed. But then again Vitters and Theriot are two different types of players. Fuld and PIe are a fair comparison cause both have below average power, both are CFs and both are slap hitting players.

 

As for Pie, Pie has had more time in the Majors than Fuld. I agree Pie has more potential than fuld mostly because of his age and you dont know what the future holds. But to say Pie has way more upside is kind of dumb because how many years do you have to wait for PIe to realize his potential. Pie has been in the majors for about 2 1/2 years and his numbers dont scream potential. He had one good month but what about the rest of his time in the majors. I guess batting .333 with a OBP of .394 with 5 Hr and 13 RBIs scream potential. But then what do you have to say about his september numbers?

Edited December 22, 2009 by Sever82