Cards offer Holliday 16m/per for 8 years

[jersey cubs fan]

Holliday is a step above Ramirez, and I think Aramis has clearly plataued below the elite level. He's been consistently solid, but he's never broken into the elite.

[SouthSideRyan]

Defense has to put Ramirez pretty damn close to Holliday.

[CUBZ99]

When you look at Z's and Carpenter's career numbers they are very similar. One has a career 1.29 WHIP and a 3.88 ERA, the other has a career 1.30 Whip and 3.57 ERA. Sure Carpenter had a lights out season in 2009, but he barely pitched at all in 2007 and 2008. I don't see how you can justify calling Carpenter a premium player but saying Z is not. Edited December 15, 2009 by CUBZ99

[jersey cubs fan]

Defense has to put Ramirez pretty damn close to Holliday.

 

Maybe. I think he's still behind, as Holliday has had one or two standout seasons to go along with his steadily good overall performance, while Ramirez is about as consistently very good but not elite as you can get.

[CUBZ99]

Holliday is a step above Ramirez, and I think Aramis has clearly plataued below the elite level. He's been consistently solid, but he's never broken into the elite.

 

Based on strictly viewing offensive production? I have to admit, I was surprised to see Holliday with a CAREER OPS of .932. That is pretty nice.

[SouthSideRyan]

Holliday is a step above Ramirez, and I think Aramis has clearly plataued below the elite level. He's been consistently solid, but he's never broken into the elite.

 

Based on strictly viewing offensive production? I have to admit, I was surprised to see Holliday with a CAREER OPS of .932. That is pretty nice.

 

He did spend all but 1 of his years in Coors.

[Sammy Sofa]

Holliday is a step above Ramirez, and I think Aramis has clearly plataued below the elite level. He's been consistently solid, but he's never broken into the elite.

 

Based on strictly viewing offensive production? I have to admit, I was surprised to see Holliday with a CAREER OPS of .932. That is pretty nice.

 

He did spend all but 1 of his years in Coors.

 

Yeah, it's a little tricky at this point to figure out who the "real" Holliday is. He's obviously a good hitter but between Coors, his very slow start with the A's (which ended up pretty well off) and then hitting at absurd levels for much of this brief time with the Cardinals it's difficult to get a grasp as to just how good he is.

[treebird]

Anyone else hope he turns it down simply because even though it's a bad deal in long term it makes them a lot better in short term?

 

we suck in the short term, i'd much rather they be good in 2010 than 2012

[Guest]

Rather than measure the lifetimes of Zambrano and Carpenter, just measure how they have done with their respective teams. Clearly, Carpenter was damaged goods before he came to St. Louis. They saw a guy who they felt they could help and a guy who they felt could help them. They gambled and they got a pretty good player out of it.

 

Given defense, Aramis might be right there with Holliday. But, health sways the bar back in Holliday's favor. I might want Aramis over Holliday if I'm building a baseball team considering position, but that's not really the point I'm getting at.

 

The point is that the Cardinals have better players on their team with half the payroll that the Cubs are sporting, including the best player in the game. Every time the better players have been available, Hendry either isn't shopping for that position or doesn't have the money to spend on them. When he does need that guy the next year, he ends up signing someone who isn't nearly the player that the other guy is.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The Cardinals front office has been showing the Cubs front office how it's done for the last several years (even with different GM's). They have less to work with financially. They were basically handcuffed during the building of their new stadium, but that didn't stop them from being a better team than the Cubs during that time. They have locked up their true talented players and went out and got the guys they targeted.

 

None of this is remotely true.

[17 Seconds]

yeah, they gave kyle lohse 4/41

[CUBZ99]

Rather than measure the lifetimes of Zambrano and Carpenter, just measure how they have done with their respective teams. Clearly, Carpenter was damaged goods before he came to St. Louis. They saw a guy who they felt they could help and a guy who they felt could help them. They gambled and they got a pretty good player out of it.

 

Given defense, Aramis might be right there with Holliday. But, health sways the bar back in Holliday's favor. I might want Aramis over Holliday if I'm building a baseball team considering position, but that's not really the point I'm getting at.

 

The point is that the Cardinals have better players on their team with half the payroll that the Cubs are sporting, including the best player in the game. Every time the better players have been available, Hendry either isn't shopping for that position or doesn't have the money to spend on them. When he does need that guy the next year, he ends up signing someone who isn't nearly the player that the other guy is.

 

2 out of the last 3 seasons Carpenter has been with the Cards he hasn't pitched more than 4 games. Sure he had a better year than Z last year, but Z has by far been the more productive pitcher over the last 3 years.

[Guest]

The Cardinals front office has been showing the Cubs front office how it's done for the last several years (even with different GM's). They have less to work with financially. They were basically handcuffed during the building of their new stadium, but that didn't stop them from being a better team than the Cubs during that time. They have locked up their true talented players and went out and got the guys they targeted.

 

None of this is remotely true.

 

You can say that, but I'd take Pujols, Holliday, Carpenter and Wainwright as my building block over what the Cubs have right now, and if the Cardinals had the Cubs payroll, they could have filled in a few more holes pretty nicely.

 

The Cubs window is closing rapidly, with not a whole lot of hope to expand on payroll anytime soon.

[YearofDaCubs]

The Cardinals front office has been showing the Cubs front office how it's done for the last several years (even with different GM's). They have less to work with financially. They were basically handcuffed during the building of their new stadium, but that didn't stop them from being a better team than the Cubs during that time. They have locked up their true talented players and went out and got the guys they targeted.

 

None of this is remotely true.

 

You can say that, but I'd take Pujols, Holliday, Carpenter and Wainwright as my building block over what the Cubs have right now, and if the Cardinals had the Cubs payroll, they could have filled in a few more holes pretty nicely.

 

The Cubs window is closing rapidly, with not a whole lot of hope to expand on payroll anytime soon.

I'd honestly say the Cubs window has closed.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The Cardinals front office has been showing the Cubs front office how it's done for the last several years (even with different GM's). They have less to work with financially. They were basically handcuffed during the building of their new stadium, but that didn't stop them from being a better team than the Cubs during that time. They have locked up their true talented players and went out and got the guys they targeted.

 

None of this is remotely true.

 

You can say that, but I'd take Pujols, Holliday, Carpenter and Wainwright as my building block over what the Cubs have right now, and if the Cardinals had the Cubs payroll, they could have filled in a few more holes pretty nicely.

 

The Cubs window is closing rapidly, with not a whole lot of hope to expand on payroll anytime soon.

 

 

To go over your post again:

 

The Cardinals front office has been showing the Cubs front office how it's done for the last several years (even with different GM's).

 

The Cubs have been 11 games better than the Cardinals the last 3 years.

 

They have less to work with financially. They were basically handcuffed during the building of their new stadium, but that didn't stop them from being a better team than the Cubs during that time.

 

The Cards and Cubs had pretty much identical payrolls from 2002-2006.

 

They have locked up their true talented players and went out and got the guys they targeted.

 

Pujols has no contract after next year, and is a free agent after 2011. They got Holliday(who they haven't signed), but haven't added anyone big in recent years. And their farm system might be the worst in baseball right now. As far as preferring the Cards core, remember that next year if one or more of Carpenter/Wainwright are visiting Dr. Andrews, and/or if Holliday is wearing another uniform.

[jersey cubs fan]

The Cards and Cubs had pretty much identical payrolls from 2002-2006.

 

No they don't, just because some idiots decide not to count money paid to people not to play for your team doesn't mean a team isn't paying that money.

 

The Cubs have been a few games better in recent years with a hell of a lot more money to spend. It's kind of ridiculous to suggest they haven't done a better job. The Cubs should have been wiping the floor with STL.

[Guest]

I said the last several years. Why did you only choose to look up the last 3 years? I also referenced "during Hendry's tenure" in a previous post, so I have no idea why you are only looking at 3 years worth of work.

 

Then, in your same post, you point out that the Cubs payroll was the same, but ignored the last 3 years that you were just comparing their records together. That's cherry picking.

 

Dr. Andrews is not allergic to performing procedures on Cubs arms, either.

 

Lee may not be back after this year. Actually, they probably won't be able to afford him. Aramis can opt out of his contract if he so desires.

 

If you think the Cubs are the model team of the NL Central over this decade, all I can say is we will have to agree to disagree. The Cardinals did it with less to work with, and going forward they have better talent in place.

 

And it's not really that I like arguing anything for the Cardinals. I hate that team with a passion. But, I'm not so blind to see that they have made better moves this decade than the Cubs. Heck, the Cardinals sat on their hands basically for a couple of years while the new stadium was being built. Sitting on your hands is probably still better than handing out bad contracts that will handcuff you for years to come.

[MWV]

Apparently, the Cards are now talking 5 years:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4745530

 

Its a little disconcerting that no team outside St. Louis seems to be mounting a credible pursuit of Holliday.

[Peoriaman]

Cards appear to be bidding against themselves. Yanks and Red Sox have no interest now. Angels never did. Unless the Mets get involved, he is a STL Cardinal next season.

[17 Seconds]

i'd be pissed if they got him for 5/80. that's not a bad deal at all

[tfarks]

Both Bay and Holliday are monster bats that aren't getting the deals they want this offseason. I'm thinking neither is getting the years they want while at the same time seeing no strong outside interest from another team. Tough offseason for them. I definitely see Holliday staying with the Cardinals. Bay no idea.

[XZero771679666304]

There's still a chance Bay goes to the Mets. If that happens, the Red Sox would probably turn to Holliday.

 

Either way Boras will milk it. If the Cards are bidding against themselves, they'll be doing do late into January, imo.

[17 Seconds]

There's still a chance Bay goes to the Mets. If that happens, the Red Sox would probably turn to Holliday.

 

both sides )bay/redsox) have pretty much acknowledged that there isn't a lot of mutual interest there. plus they'd have to trade ellsbury to free an outfield spot.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Orioles Join Holliday Bidding

By Tim Dierkes [December 17 at 12:05am CST]

The Orioles have "jumped into" the bidding for outfielder Matt Holliday, write Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. But despite the leap, the writers question the team's seriousness and Holliday's inclination to play in Baltimore, labeling the O's a longshot.

 

Surely they have a few bucks laying around. Have they really splurged on anything since Miguel Tejada?

[dew1679666265]

Orioles Join Holliday Bidding

By Tim Dierkes [December 17 at 12:05am CST]

The Orioles have "jumped into" the bidding for outfielder Matt Holliday, write Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. But despite the leap, the writers question the team's seriousness and Holliday's inclination to play in Baltimore, labeling the O's a longshot.

 

Surely they have a few bucks laying around. Have they really splurged on anything since Miguel Tejada?

 

Was it Baltimore or Washington that made a massive offer to Teixeira last offseason? I think it was the Orioles, but I'm not sure.