Re: LaRussa Back - McGwire May Be Hitting Coach

[biittner77]

Sure, there will be steroid jokes made. But I don't think McGwire will be handing out needles in the clubhouse. Players would get caught. The players should be smart enough to not do steroids now because they will get caught.

 

There's no test for HGH. There are also designer steroids that the existing tests can't find. That was the whole point of BALCO. Also baseball players are widely regarded as the dumbest group of professional athletes.

[baseballfan50]

There won't be a media circus. Maybe when the hiring is formally announced and the first week of spring, but people just don't care about steroids anymore.

 

Some do. I know plenty of people who are "disgusted" by the hiring and think that all of the steroid-era players should be blacklisted from getting coaching jobs.

 

I'm not endorsing this viewpoint, but it's out there.

 

A few Cardinals forums are nuthouses right now, but one forum in particular is always a nuthouse.

 

Although this is St. Louis, not New York. The media scrutiny may not be that bad.

 

I don't really see why hiring McGwire is such a big deal.

Edited October 26, 2009 by baseballfan50

[Keener98]

There won't be a media circus. Maybe when the hiring is formally announced and the first week of spring, but people just don't care about steroids anymore.

 

While true, most people don't care about steroids anymore, I think it will be a little different with McGwire. The way he handled himself at the end of his career regarding steroids, and then just falling off the face of the baseball world, hes definitely going to get alot of questions in spring training. How he handles himself there will probably have a big effect on how long those questions continue to get asked.

[Keener98]

I saw this...I thought about when the Mets brought in Ricky Henderson to be the 3rd base coach as well as a hitting coach at one time. We all know where there ended up. So if Ricky didn't make it I will give McGwire at least a season if that.

 

What?

His wording makes sense if he actually meant at most a season.

 

I'm just guessing here, but I don't think SSR's question of "what" is directed towards his grammar. I think its more directed at his whole point in that post because I know I have no idea what the point was supposed to be.

[sweetpeteman]

There won't be a media circus. Maybe when the hiring is formally announced and the first week of spring, but people just don't care about steroids anymore.

 

While true, most people don't care about steroids anymore, I think it will be a little different with McGwire. The way he handled himself at the end of his career regarding steroids, and then just falling off the face of the baseball world, hes definitely going to get alot of questions in spring training. How he handles himself there will probably have a big effect on how long those questions continue to get asked.

 

 

"I'm not here to talk about the past..."

[Banedon]

So when does Sosa get the Cubs hitting coach job?

[SouthSideRyan]

I saw this...I thought about when the Mets brought in Ricky Henderson to be the 3rd base coach as well as a hitting coach at one time. We all know where there ended up. So if Ricky didn't make it I will give McGwire at least a season if that.

 

What?

His wording makes sense if he actually meant at most a season.

 

I'm just guessing here, but I don't think SSR's question of "what" is directed towards his grammar. I think its more directed at his whole point in that post because I know I have no idea what the point was supposed to be.

 

Yeah, I didn't even notice the poor wording.

[Guest]

 

I don't really see why hiring McGwire is such a big deal.

Because he cheated his way to 583 homeruns. He's a literal reminder of baseball's recent dark past. Having McGwire as a hitting coach is like making Madoff a member of the board of directors of CITIgroup.

 

What this says is that the Cardinals and LaRussa don't really care about the rules of baseball. Check that, they don't care so long as a person is wearing a hat with a red bird on it. I'm sure TBFIB will give him a standing O the first game of the season.

[chopsx9]

Sure, there will be steroid jokes made. But I don't think McGwire will be handing out needles in the clubhouse. Players would get caught. The players should be smart enough to not do steroids now because they will get caught.

 

There's no test for HGH. There are also designer steroids that the existing tests can't find. That was the whole point of BALCO. Also baseball players are widely regarded as the dumbest group of professional athletes.

 

 

The hockey players chime in with "Yo...duh...yo?"

[chopsx9]

Sure, there will be steroid jokes made. But I don't think McGwire will be handing out needles in the clubhouse. Players would get caught. The players should be smart enough to not do steroids now because they will get caught.

 

There's no test for HGH. There are also designer steroids that the existing tests can't find. That was the whole point of BALCO. Also baseball players are widely regarded as the dumbest group of professional athletes.

 

 

The hockey players chime in with "Yo...duh...yo?"

[baseballfan50]

Cheating in baseball, while not excusable, is nothing new. And there are probably more players that never got caught.

 

I just think everyone is using a few players as their objects of hate (McGwire, Canseco, Bonds), when so many more players did it and just didn't get caught. Some players cheated more or longer than others. But players have cheated since baseball began.

 

I hate steroid use, too, but that's in the past. If McGwire is a good hitting coach (we'll see), I don't care what he did or didn't do.

[fromthestretch]

I thought McGwire had a pretty good hitting approach. He took a lot of called strike threes because he was a mistake hitter. He knew he was a mistake hitter so he didn't swing at many pitchers' pitches, even with two strikes. Sure he struck out looking a lot, but at least he knew what he could and couldn't do.

 

He was a roided up power hitter whose OBP was inflated by pitchers not wanting to throw him strikes.

 

His OBP was high because he was a patient hitter who waited for a pitch he could drive. The guy drew 96 walks in 596 plate appearances his first full season in the minors. He drew 88 walks in 579 plate appearances the following year. I'm not denying the fact that many pitchers pitched around him due to his power, but patience was a big part of his approach from the beginning.

[CliftonHanger]

His OBP will alwaysbe jaded due to the fact that he was pitched around so often. His .263 career batting average speaks more for the type of "pure hitter" he was. Patience is one thing, but swinging for the fences is another.

 

I live in STL and I know of plenty of Cards fans who are outraged by the prospect of this.

[NonProfitCow]

It is official.

[NonProfitCow]

His OBP will alwaysbe jaded due to the fact that he was pitched around so often. His .263 career batting average speaks more for the type of "pure hitter" he was. Patience is one thing, but swinging for the fences is another.

 

I live in STL and I know of plenty of Cards fans who are outraged by the prospect of this.

Most people in STL are idiots pining for the days of Whiteyball. McGwire was an extremely patient hitter that looked to drive the ball when he swung. Just because he wasn't a high average guy says nothing about his "pure hitting" skills.

[fromthestretch]

His OBP will alwaysbe jaded due to the fact that he was pitched around so often. His .263 career batting average speaks more for the type of "pure hitter" he was. Patience is one thing, but swinging for the fences is another.

 

I live in STL and I know of plenty of Cards fans who are outraged by the prospect of this.

 

I think it's a little too early to tell how his personal style of hitting will translate into what type of hitting coach he is. I highly doubt he's going to try to turn guys like Skip Schumaker and Brendan Ryan into power hitters. A person's career numbers are not a good indicator of what type of hitting coach he'll be.

 

Fun fact: Gerald Perry was a .265 career hitter in the majors...a whopping two points higher than McGwire. On top of that, he didn't possess nearly the patience nor the power that McGwire had. Would you label Perry as a bad hitting instructor?

[wolf stansson]

Fwiw, Matt Holliday has been working out in the off season at McGwire's home hitting camp/work out program/steroid cycling clinic for the past few off seasons so this might affect Holliday's free agency. I doubt it, but it's not impossible.

[XZero771679666304]

I have zero issue with the steroids angle here. I just don't care.

 

 

I am more curious as to what he brings as a coach. He hit his fair share of homers (and he would have sans steroids, IMO), but I never thought of him as a great hitter. He was a feast or famine guy with a patient approach, not a refined, cerebral hitter. I mean if I was gong to cull the list of ex-Cards for a hitting coach, I'd go for a guy like Willie McGee or someone similar.

[NonProfitCow]

I have zero issue with the steroids angle here. I just don't care.

 

 

I am more curious as to what he brings as a coach. He hit his fair share of homers (and he would have sans steroids, IMO), but I never thought of him as a great hitter. He was a feast or famine guy with a patient approach, not a refined, cerebral hitter. I mean if I was gong to cull the list of ex-Cards for a hitting coach, I'd go for a guy like Willie McGee or someone similar.

I was actually hoping for Larry Walker, but am curios to see what McGwire can do.

[wolf stansson]

He was a feast or famine guy with a patient approach, not a refined, cerebral hitter.

I don't agree with this at all. So few have the ability to create solid contact against any pitch all over the zone and have a refined eye for walks. McGwire wasn't that kind of complete hitter but he excelled at maximizing his strengths. In fact, I think someone like McGwire or Dunn are actually more refined because they are maximizing their value by focusing on the what they can do best to create runs. Larry Walker has been mentioned, and if you look at the two guys, both had outside influences that helped their performance and in a vacuum, Larry Walker was so much better athletically he could do things both at the plate and in the field that McGwire would never have been able to do. It's unfair to expect him to. He just had physical limitations that apparently Walker didn't. So I think McGwire actually did more with his skill set because he identified how to maximize what he brought to the table.

 

But of course all of this is unquantifiable and irrelevant and success as a player either has no correlation with success as a coach or it has a negative correlation, so we'll just have to see what happens. Luckily I don't think hitting coaches matter all that much.

[Guest]

Fwiw, Matt Holliday has been working out in the off season at McGwire's home hitting camp/work out program/steroid cycling clinic for the past few off seasons so this might affect Holliday's free agency. I doubt it, but it's not impossible.

So he was likely at least partially hired as an attempt to get Holliday back - makes sense.

 

I'm sure that the overall franchise connection had more to do with it. Heck, part of the stadium is still named after the guy. He's going to be under a lot of pressure that most hitting coaches simply don't feel, though.

[Guest]

Cardinals OBP were not very good.

 

Skip         .364  Fairly good
Ryan        .340           Not good enough to truly protect Albert
Albert       .443           One bright spot
Matt        .394            again good, but Matt's replacement might be Derosa
Ludwick    .329            can we say all or nothing?
Derosa      .319            give the ex-cub a flyer on being hurt usually he is closer to .360
Rasmus     .307        he stands to benefit most from Mark. 
Molina       .366            damn if only he could run faster than my grandma

 

PROS

I think Mark's philosophy of plate discipline will fit nicely compared to McRae's philospphy of hit the first thing you see.

 

Also everyone on the lineup except Ludwick and Holliday use the same basic weight transfer approach.

 

Mark studied the game like his mentor TLR and DD do. Bring the same scouting report research to the hitting aspect of the game will most certainly do well for this team.

 

CONS

Media Circus

 

 

I'd mention the inexperience and unknown factors as cons as well, but anything has to be better than McRae.

Wait...McGwire teaches a linear weight transfer? I'd think he'd be a huge rotational guy.

 

And Pujols does not share a weight transfer approach with the stance he uses, that's for certain.

[XZero771679666304]

But of course all of this is unquantifiable and irrelevant and success as a player either has no correlation with success as a coach or it has a negative correlation, so we'll just have to see what happens. Luckily I don't think hitting coaches matter all that much.

 

I agree that hitting coached don't make too much of a difference, and are often PR hires. It seems silly to classify the McGwire move this way, but STL is relatively insular, so I think the fond memories fans have of him matter more than the steroid business. Obviously if you are in NY, Boston, Chicago or LA you don't make this move.

 

And as far as Mac's approach goes, pitch recognition and selectivity goes a long way, but really what does could he have to say other than be selective and when you get a good pitch, try and pull the [expletive] out of it? Really, that's all he ever did. He may have had physical limitations, but after two decades of the same approach, you have to imagine it led to some one track thinking.

[baseballfan50]

I live in STL and I know of plenty of Cards fans who are outraged by the prospect of this.

 

STLToday had a poll, and 80% of Cardinals fans said they didn't care about the steroid issue with McGwire, if that means anything.

 

Thumbs up or thumbs down on Mark McGwire joining the Cards' coaching staff?

 

81%

UP! He'll have instant credibility with the players

 

19%

DOWN! With the unresolved questions about steroid use, he'll be an unnecessary distraction

 

Votes: 3,849

Polls are unscientific, reflecting only the views of those who choose to participate.

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/polla.nsf/Result?Readform&id=7193781E340A60458625765B000F9C49

 

But the STLToday board is in argument right now. Still, most there seem to not care about the steroid thing.

[CliftonHanger]

I hear the Cardinals want to hire Bernie Madoff to teach the players how to get rich and manage the players money, unfortunately he's in jail.