Zambrano as Trade Bait?

[SouthSideRyan]

Trading away cheap players like Soto, Guzman, Marmol, Marshall, Baker?

 

Lowering the payroll to 8 dollars?

 

Comical.

[tspain]

Ok guys, I got it. You disagree with me. But it is this thinking that has kept the Cubs from rebuilding for 100 years. Every teams needs to rebuild, and so do the Cubs. I don't understand why you guys don't see that. But, oh well, many folks I talk to do not understand it either.

 

Unless you spend like the Yankees, you cannot keep spending more on the Cubs. The money the Cubs spent this year is plenty to spend in a season. We do not need an owner who will spend more. We need to spend more wisely.

 

Like I said, I hope you guys are right, cause I want the Cubs to win as bad as you do, if not more. I am 56 years old, and been a fan for more years than some of you have been alive. I want to see them win a World Series. And I think the best chance is to rebuild. But I am sure they will follow your way and not mine. And we shall see what the results are at the end of next year. My prediction: injuries will kill the team again, along with under-performance from some overpaid players. We shall see.

 

Pastor Tom Spain

[cbbryan]

Ok guys, I got it. You disagree with me. But it is this thinking that has kept the Cubs from rebuilding for 100 years. Every teams needs to rebuild, and so do the Cubs. I don't understand why you guys don't see that. But, oh well, many folks I talk to do not understand it either.

 

Unless you spend like the Yankees, you cannot keep spending more on the Cubs. The money the Cubs spent this year is plenty to spend in a season. We do not need an owner who will spend more. We need to spend more wisely.

 

Like I said, I hope you guys are right, cause I want the Cubs to win as bad as you do, if not more. I am 56 years old, and been a fan for more years than some of you have been alive. I want to see them win a World Series. And I think the best chance is to rebuild. But I am sure they will follow your way and not mine. And we shall see what the results are at the end of next year. My prediction: injuries will kill the team again, along with under-performance from some overpaid players. We shall see.

 

Pastor Tom Spain

 

I don't think it's a case of agreeing with you or not. The point is that with the contractual obligations the Cubs have that can't be traded it doesn't make sense for them to try and rebuild. It's a bit too late at this point w/ contracts for Soriano, Dempster, Bradley, etc. to decide to pull the plug and rebuild. Furthermore, when you're in a city like Chicago you cannot just "rebuild." It's a different animal then running a team in Kansas City or Miami where no fans show up anyway.

[NCCubFan]

I'd consider rebuilding before winning a championship to be inexcusable. It's been over a century. That's way, way, way too long. Going 4 or 5 years longer is not an option. They MUST find a way to go all out every year until it finally happens.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'd consider rebuilding before winning a championship to be inexcusable. It's been over a century. That's way, way, way too long. Going 4 or 5 years longer is not an option. They MUST find a way to go all out every year until it finally happens.

 

That's some really, really bad logic.

 

Also, (paraphrased) "the Cubs have an aging core, so trade away anyone with a contract and anyone who is good now to get 150 prospects" is really bad logic. You make those steps incrementally, hopefully it starts with development(Soto, Theriot, and Fontenot all falling on their face to different extents doesn't help), but finding undervalued younger players like they did with Ramirez and Barrett is another way to go about it. Players like Jose Reyes, BJ Upton, Jeremy Hermida, Alex Gordon, etc. might be available for far less than their future value this offseason. Not everyone can afford to make those type of moves or is smart enough to do so, and a guy in Hendry's position can't afford to rule out what could be an easy way to make the team better, cheaper, and younger.

[wvcbxl]

Here is the team I want on the field next season:

 

1b-Hoffpaiur

2b-Scales, Blanco

ss-Barney

3b-Fox

c-Clevenger, Robinson

lf-Soriano, don't want him, but cannot trade him, so he will be here

cf-Fuld

rf-Fukodome, unless someone will take his contract, then put Fox out there, and play Smith at 3b

 

Rotation

 

1. Wells

2. Samardjiza

3. Caridad

4. Atkins

5. ??????

 

Bullpen

 

1. Parker

2. Stevens

3. Maestri

4. Gaub

5. Mateo

6. Berg

 

I know it won't win, ..

 

"Not winning" may be an understatement. That team wiil net the Cubs a very high draft pick in 2011, which, granted, does fit in with your rebuilding idea.

Interesting as your idea may be, it won't happen.

[Halman]

People are really overreacting to a mediocre season.

 

And why does everyone still think Fukudome is bad?

 

OMG HE'S ONLY BATTING 265! MARK DEROSA WOULD HAVE DOUBLE THAT. AND GINGER MURTON WOULD HAVE A 350 AVG. WITH HIS HUSTLELY NESS

[Halman]

 

Here is the team I want on the field next season:

 

1b-Hoffpaiur

2b-Scales, Blanco

ss-Barney

3b-Fox

c-Clevenger, Robinson

lf-Soriano, don't want him, but cannot trade him, so he will be here

cf-Fuld

rf-Fukodome, unless someone will take his contract, then put Fox out there, and play Smith at 3b

 

Rotation

 

1. Wells

2. Samardjiza

3. Caridad

4. Atkins

5. ??????

 

Bullpen

 

1. Parker

2. Stevens

3. Maestri

4. Gaub

5. Mateo

6. Berg

 

 

 

Lawl

[Little Slide Rooter]

 

Here is the team I want on the field next season:

 

1b-Hoffpaiur

2b-Scales, Blanco

ss-Barney

3b-Fox

c-Clevenger, Robinson

lf-Soriano, don't want him, but cannot trade him, so he will be here

cf-Fuld

rf-Fukodome, unless someone will take his contract, then put Fox out there, and play Smith at 3b

 

Rotation

 

1. Wells

2. Samardjiza

3. Caridad

4. Atkins

5. ??????

 

Bullpen

 

1. Parker

2. Stevens

3. Maestri

4. Gaub

5. Mateo

6. Berg

 

 

 

Lawl

 

Tell me you're joking and Ill one day take you serious again. I mean Aaron Miles isnt even in the starting lineup. And where the hell is David Patton?

[Backtobanks]

I disagree. We have lots of guys we can trade for good kids. None of our big guys will want to stay if we are rebuilding. They will accept trades although they have no trade contracts. We let Hardin and Grabow walk and offer arbitration, and get draft picks. One of the things that has hurt this team is the 2002 draft. We had 4 first round picks, and 2 second round picks, and none of them made the majors. And it was a good draft year. Rich Hill was taken in the 4th round and made it, Billy Petrick made it from the 3rd round. We used the 21st pick of the draft on Bobby Brownlee, I would have used it on Matt Cain pitching in SF. #'s 32, 36 and 38 could have been used on guys I wanted us to take, Dave Bush, and Jon Lester. Just think where we would be if we had used that draft wisely.

 

The reason the Cubs have not won in over 100 years is because of the argument I hear on this board, be competitive. I don't want to be competitve, I want to win. Why settle for being competitive? What is the harm if we are not competitive for a couple years? Especially when you know the good players are on their way up. Use the trades to bring in good players to go with what we have in the minors right now. And draft wisely, like we did in 2008. I think we had a great draft in 2008, then a terrible draft in 2009. I have no idea what happened this time, but it was not nearly as good a draft. Maybe it was just not as good a draft year this time.

 

I say forget the word competitive, and say we want to win. We cannot win now as we are to old and injury riddled to win. So let us take the time to rebuild from the bottom up. Start over. Other teams have done that and come on and won more than once recently, while the Cubs are satisfied with just being competitive. You have gotten your wish for way too long, just stay competitive. That is not good enough for me.

 

I don't think this bunch will win next year. But I hope I am wrong, cause I am sure they will be back. You win, we will try to be competitive again next year. And we will be saying wait till next year one more time. Well, I am tired of saying it. Enough is enough.

 

Here is the team I want on the field next season:

 

1b-Hoffpaiur

2b-Scales, Blanco

ss-Barney

3b-Fox

c-Clevenger, Robinson

lf-Soriano, don't want him, but cannot trade him, so he will be here

cf-Fuld

rf-Fukodome, unless someone will take his contract, then put Fox out there, and play Smith at 3b

 

Rotation

 

1. Wells

2. Samardjiza

3. Caridad

4. Atkins

5. ??????

 

Bullpen

 

1. Parker

2. Stevens

3. Maestri

4. Gaub

5. Mateo

6. Berg

 

I know it won't win, but neither will the team we have now. And we will have lots of good minor leaguers coming up in a year or two or three. We will at least be building toward winning instead of trying to stay competitive and put fans in the seats. I am one fan who would rather win.

 

You have a "chicken or the egg" situation since you can't rebuild unless you can trade the guys with the NTC. Do you really think that Lee or Ramirez are going to believe a "threat" that the team is going to rebuild. Ricketts has spent almost a billion dollars on the team and now he's going to blow it up. :pig: :pig: :pig:

[Little Slide Rooter]

Fukudome is a definite improvement from last year, but hes still not quite where we expected him. Hes a great defender, although hes a bit better in right than center. Hes getting their, and he seems to be trying to eliminate the Fuk-U-Copter from his game. Id definitely take similar numbers throughout the duration of his contract, but we were expecting something along the lines of .285/.375/.480 with 20 some HR when we got him.

[soonercub]

How about Big Z for Beltran? The Mets need pitching, we have some. We need to get more athletic and the Mets have some outfield depth. Maybe a change of scenery will do both some good. Not sure how the salaries match up, may take some minor players to sweeten the pot for the team getting the larger contract.

 

To me Z will never be a number 1. Just doesn't have the secondary pitches like a Carpenter or a Halladay. Maybe we could then make a push for a Halladay or Lachey.

Edited September 14, 2009 by soonercub

[Guest]

People are really overreacting to a mediocre season.

 

And why does everyone still think Fukudome is bad?

 

I don't know why people don't think that 2008 wasn't a fluke season where everything went right for the Cubs.

 

This is a good team that's built to be mediocre unless everything goes according to plan. It's not a great team.

 

Also, to backtobanks the Yankees have twice the payroll of the Cubs and are built to weather injuries, as we've seen. Quit being ridiculous.

[SouthSideRyan]

Top of my head there have been like 10 pitchers better than Zambrano over the past 5 years.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Top of my head there have been like 10 pitchers better than Zambrano over the past 5 years.

 

Tim Lincecum

Johan Santana

Matt Cain

Adam Wainwright

CC Sabbathia

Cliff Lee

Chris Carpenter

Roy Oswalt

Ray Halladay

Josh Beckett

Mark Buerhle

Jake Peavy

Felix Hernandez

Zack Greinke

Dan Haren

Brandon Webb

Justin Verlander

John Lackey

Cole Hammels

Jair Jurrgens

Ted Lilly

Chad Billingsly

 

Just to name a few

[SouthSideRyan]

Top of my head there have been like 10 pitchers better than Zambrano over the past 5 years.

 

Tim Lincecum

Johan Santana

Matt Cain

Adam Wainwright

CC Sabbathia

Cliff Lee

Chris Carpenter

Roy Oswalt

Ray Halladay

Josh Beckett

Mark Buerhle

Jake Peavy

Felix Hernandez

Zack Greinke

Dan Haren

Brandon Webb

Justin Verlander

John Lackey

Cole Hammels

Jair Jurrgens

Ted Lilly

Chad Billingsly

 

Just to name a few

 

What exactly are you listing here?

[Halman]

but we were expecting something along the lines of .285/.375/.480 with 20 some HR when we got him.

 

Were you also asking for 30 HRs for bradley too?

[Sammy Sofa]

Fukudome is a definite improvement from last year, but hes still not quite where we expected him. Hes a great defender, although hes a bit better in right than center. Hes getting their, and he seems to be trying to eliminate the Fuk-U-Copter from his game. Id definitely take similar numbers throughout the duration of his contract, but we were expecting something along the lines of .285/.375/.480 with 20 some HR when we got him.

 

Who is "we?"

[Little Slide Rooter]

but we were expecting something along the lines of .285/.375/.480 with 20 some HR when we got him.

 

Were you also asking for 30 HRs for bradley too?

 

nope, high teens/low 20s. Bradley has never been a big home run guy. I would have expected similarto the Fukudome expectations from hi however. Never would have expected anything near his 2008 numbers.

 

I think a lot of people are harder on Bradley now not so much because of his numbers which have been decent enough but because the guys Hendry overlooked to get Bradley: Dunn, Abreu, and Ibanez have all had great years and Dunn and Abreu got significantly better contracts, at least from an organizational stand point.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Fukudome is a definite improvement from last year, but hes still not quite where we expected him. Hes a great defender, although hes a bit better in right than center. Hes getting their, and he seems to be trying to eliminate the Fuk-U-Copter from his game. Id definitely take similar numbers throughout the duration of his contract, but we were expecting something along the lines of .285/.375/.480 with 20 some HR when we got him.

 

Who is "we?"

 

A lot of people were expecting big things from Fukudome when we got him. I really thought that what we saw in early 2008 was what we were going to get for the next 4 years.

[SouthSideRyan]

I think everyone saw what Abreu and Ibanez were doing in May and assume they're still performing at that level. These same people also completely ignore defense.

[Little Slide Rooter]

It seems as though what weve been in need of is 1 more middle of the order type hitter to go along with Lee and Ramirez, which were supposed to be Fukudome and Bradley, but theyve become the top of the order guys when Soriano could no longer cut it there. DeRosa was just that, but we all know how that turned out. If Soriano can rebound and become a solid #5 guy, that would be great.

[Backtobanks]

People are really overreacting to a mediocre season.

 

And why does everyone still think Fukudome is bad?

 

I don't know why people don't think that 2008 wasn't a fluke season where everything went right for the Cubs.

 

This is a good team that's built to be mediocre unless everything goes according to plan. It's not a great team.

 

Also, to backtobanks the Yankees have twice the payroll of the Cubs and are built to weather injuries, as we've seen. Quit being ridiculous.

 

 

Why would you think 2008 was a fluke? The Cubs had won the division in recent years and were favorites to be in contention. As for 2009, the team is a good team that became mediocre because of a ton of injuries and a few below-expectations seasons. As I stated before, most of the injuries were not to the players with an "injury-prone" label. As for the payroll, I don't understand what that has to do with the injury issue. The Mets have a gigantic payroll, but couldn't overcome a ton of injuries. Your original post used the "wrong side of 30" argument and my point that the Yankees have 12 players over 30 on their roster disproved your argument, so who's being ridiculous? Assuming Soriano is 100% and they don't get hit by a ton of "freakish" injuries, the 2010 Cubs will be picked at or near the top of the NL Central.

[SouthSideRyan]

People are really overreacting to a mediocre season.

 

And why does everyone still think Fukudome is bad?

 

I don't know why people don't think that 2008 wasn't a fluke season where everything went right for the Cubs.

 

This is a good team that's built to be mediocre unless everything goes according to plan. It's not a great team.

 

Also, to backtobanks the Yankees have twice the payroll of the Cubs and are built to weather injuries, as we've seen. Quit being ridiculous.

 

Everything going right for the Cubs being Edmonds, Fontenot and Dempster?

[Guest]

People are really overreacting to a mediocre season.

 

And why does everyone still think Fukudome is bad?

 

I don't know why people don't think that 2008 wasn't a fluke season where everything went right for the Cubs.

 

This is a good team that's built to be mediocre unless everything goes according to plan. It's not a great team.

 

Also, to backtobanks the Yankees have twice the payroll of the Cubs and are built to weather injuries, as we've seen. Quit being ridiculous.

 

 

Why would you think 2008 was a fluke? The Cubs had won the division in recent years and were favorites to be in contention. As for 2009, the team is a good team that became mediocre because of a ton of injuries and a few below-expectations seasons. As I stated before, most of the injuries were not to the players with an "injury-prone" label. As for the payroll, I don't understand what that has to do with the injury issue. The Mets have a gigantic payroll, but couldn't overcome a ton of injuries. Your original post used the "wrong side of 30" argument and my point that the Yankees have 12 players over 30 on their roster disproved your argument, so who's being ridiculous? Assuming Soriano is 100% and they don't get hit by a ton of "freakish" injuries, the 2010 Cubs will be picked at or near the top of the NL Central.

You didn't disprove my argument. And you are being ridiculous You used an extraordinary outlier of a team with twice the payroll of the Cubs and a helluva lot more talent. The Yankees have had injuries this year, and injuries to key players and yet they've still won.

 

Freakish injuries are part of the game. The Cubs are counting on a bunch of guys over 30 to stay healthy all year and haven't supplemented those guys with enough talent around them to overcome when they are injured.

 

I predicted the Cubs would be right around a .500 this year because last year everything went right.