8/19 Other Games

[nwg414]

Rick Ankiel an "offensive force"?

 

I guess it depends on which definition of offensive you are using. He had one good season until pitchers figured out he has enormous holes in his swing.

[Schwarber Fan]

I love the whole you never get over it thing if you get one taken from you. Am I the only one who only wants one title in my lifetime? We get one I forget all the other crap and everything after it would be gravy.

 

exactly, I don't know if Cardinals fans don't understand it or what the deal is, but most of the Cards fans around in 1985 were around to see the 2006 title, how can that not make up for it?

 

Maybe it's our fanbase that doesn't get it.

 

Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Yes, winning a title would/should help soothe a lot of wounds. I'm simply saying it doesn't erase what happened before. And, for the sake of this argument, Aramis Fan, it seemed to me like you were saying it did. I disagree.

 

Like I said, if the Cubs win, the fan base will be happy. But, does that mean that people will stop talking about everything they've been through? Red Sox fans still talk about Bucky Dent, Aaron Boone, trading Ruth, etc. even though they're the only team in this decade with two World Series titles. Winning them has allowed them to become smug, while referring to the horrors of the past still allows them to play the scorned role.

 

Of course, none of us would really know for sure. A Cubs fan can assume that the Cards would/should forget about 85, but without being in that position, they don't really know. If/when the Cubs get there, they'll know. As an Indians fan, I'll probably never know.

 

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that if the Cubs win a World Series, I will not be hurt one bit by 2003 any longer.

[RedVerbs]

General Cubs fans arguments (If it doesn't apply, don't take offense)

 

Cardinals play a bad team and win: "Cardinals are so lucky, they get to play this crap team while we play *insert over .500 NL team.* Baseball Gods hate us"

 

Cardinals play a good team and win: "I can't believe they beat *insert over .500 NL team here*, they are so lucky. The Baseball God's hate us"

 

The Cardinals are 16 games over .500, yet some of the Cubbie fans are so bitter and pathetic, they can't even acknowledge the Cardinals made the proper trades and now have a good team. Everything is luck on our side (Even though our best starter was out the last 2 years, and missed the first month of this season, our starting third basemen has been out all year, and our third starter was out for over a month). It's the same bull crap everyday with a select few of you. You don't have to give the Cardinals team any credit for being good, that's your prerogative, but it makes you look petty, jealous and stupid.

 

The Cubs were a better team in 2007 and 2008, The Cardinals have a better team then the Cubs, deal with it. It's not luck. It's not the Baseball God's cursing the Cubs. It's simply the Cardinals having superior talent.

[Schwarber Fan]

General Cubs fans arguments (If it doesn't apply, don't take offense)

 

Cardinals play a bad team and win: "Cardinals are so lucky, they get to play this crap team while we play *insert over .500 NL team.* Baseball Gods hate us"

 

Cardinals play a good team and win: "I can't believe they beat *insert over .500 NL team here*, they are so lucky. The Baseball God's hate us"

 

The Cardinals are 16 games over .500, yet some of the Cubbie fans are so bitter and pathetic, they can't even acknowledge the Cardinals made the proper trades and now have a good team. Everything is luck on our side (Even though our best starter was out the last 2 years, and missed the first month of this season, our starting third basemen has been out all year, and our third starter was out for over a month). It's the same bull crap everyday with a select few of you. You don't have to give the Cardinals team any credit for being good, that's your prerogative, but it makes you look petty, jealous and stupid.

 

The Cubs were a better team in 2007 and 2008, The Cardinals have a better team then the Cubs, deal with it. It's not luck. It's not the Baseball God's cursing the Cubs. It's simply the Cardinals having superior talent.

 

Yeah, your right. We didn't once acknowledge the DeRosa acquisition or the fact that the Cubs traded him away in the first place. What were we thinking?!

[jersey cubs fan]

General Cubs fans arguments (If it doesn't apply, don't take offense)

 

Cardinals play a bad team and win: "Cardinals are so lucky, they get to play this crap team while we play *insert over .500 NL team.* Baseball Gods hate us"

 

Cardinals play a good team and win: "I can't believe they beat *insert over .500 NL team here*, they are so lucky. The Baseball God's hate us"

 

The Cardinals are 16 games over .500, yet some of the Cubbie fans are so bitter and pathetic, they can't even acknowledge the Cardinals made the proper trades and now have a good team. Everything is luck on our side (Even though our best starter was out the last 2 years, and missed the first month of this season, our starting third basemen has been out all year, and our third starter was out for over a month). It's the same bull crap everyday with a select few of you. You don't have to give the Cardinals team any credit for being good, that's your prerogative, but it makes you look petty, jealous and stupid.

 

The Cubs were a better team in 2007 and 2008, The Cardinals have a better team then the Cubs, deal with it. It's not luck. It's not the Baseball God's cursing the Cubs. It's simply the Cardinals having superior talent.

 

That's true and all, but you got the same bitter pathetic group in your fan base, so shut the hell up.

[ManEatingTarp]

Every team has bitter and pathetic fans.

 

One of the reasons I post here and at GWRB is that the majority of posters are pretty level headed, and good baseball fans. I think both sites showcase some of the best fans of both teams.

 

It's the "pixie dust" and "luck" comments that strike me a silly.

 

I know we'll never have a "love fest" as fans of rival teams, but the discussion here is pretty darn good. I know it keeps me from thinking too highly of my team and keeps some things in perspective.

[gflore34]

General Cubs fans arguments (If it doesn't apply, don't take offense)

 

Cardinals play a bad team and win: "Cardinals are so lucky, they get to play this crap team while we play *insert over .500 NL team.* Baseball Gods hate us"

 

Cardinals play a good team and win: "I can't believe they beat *insert over .500 NL team here*, they are so lucky. The Baseball God's hate us"

 

The Cardinals are 16 games over .500, yet some of the Cubbie fans are so bitter and pathetic, they can't even acknowledge the Cardinals made the proper trades and now have a good team. Everything is luck on our side (Even though our best starter was out the last 2 years, and missed the first month of this season, our starting third basemen has been out all year, and our third starter was out for over a month). It's the same bull crap everyday with a select few of you. You don't have to give the Cardinals team any credit for being good, that's your prerogative, but it makes you look petty, jealous and stupid.

 

The Cubs were a better team in 2007 and 2008, The Cardinals have a better team then the Cubs, deal with it. It's not luck. It's not the Baseball God's cursing the Cubs. It's simply the Cardinals having superior talent.

 

I'll acknowledge the Cardinals are good but, superior talent? Come on. Lohse, Wellemeyer, Pinerio, Lugo, Thurston basically, anyone not named Pujols, Wainwright, Carpenter or Holliday are not good or superior at anything.

[webjim25]

That Pujols sequence also happened for them against Pittsburgh about two weeks ago. So in the past three weeks they have beaten Broxton and Heath Bell. They also have tied the game against Broxton and KRod. All three All Star closers. It's their year.

 

 

Broxton and Rodriguez both have 5 blown saves a piece, including failures against the Padres, Pirates, Orioles, Giants and Dbacks.

[illiniguy]

I love the whole you never get over it thing if you get one taken from you. Am I the only one who only wants one title in my lifetime? We get one I forget all the other crap and everything after it would be gravy.

 

exactly, I don't know if Cardinals fans don't understand it or what the deal is, but most of the Cards fans around in 1985 were around to see the 2006 title, how can that not make up for it?

 

Maybe it's our fanbase that doesn't get it.

 

Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Yes, winning a title would/should help soothe a lot of wounds. I'm simply saying it doesn't erase what happened before. And, for the sake of this argument, Aramis Fan, it seemed to me like you were saying it did. I disagree.

 

Like I said, if the Cubs win, the fan base will be happy. But, does that mean that people will stop talking about everything they've been through? Red Sox fans still talk about Bucky Dent, Aaron Boone, trading Ruth, etc. even though they're the only team in this decade with two World Series titles. Winning them has allowed them to become smug, while referring to the horrors of the past still allows them to play the scorned role.

 

Of course, none of us would really know for sure. A Cubs fan can assume that the Cards would/should forget about 85, but without being in that position, they don't really know. If/when the Cubs get there, they'll know. As an Indians fan, I'll probably never know.

The Red Sox thing was different because they were so close so many times, we really haven't ever been that close. Hell even '03 wasn't the World Series. And as for the Cubs will win one one of these years. Right, that's what they said in the 30's I'm sure too.

[illiniguy]

That Pujols sequence also happened for them against Pittsburgh about two weeks ago. So in the past three weeks they have beaten Broxton and Heath Bell. They also have tied the game against Broxton and KRod. All three All Star closers. It's their year.

 

 

Broxton and Rodriguez both have 5 blown saves a piece, including failures against the Padres, Pirates, Orioles, Giants and Dbacks.

Great. But to beat all three of the guys you did right in a row makes that a little more odd, no?

[webjim25]

 

Ryan Ludwick, Rick Ankiel, Skip Schumaker - these guys should not be as good as they are...

OPS+'s of the guys you mention shouldnt be as "good" as they are.

107

99

79

 

 

Great. But to beat all three of the guys you did right in a row makes that a little more odd, no?

 

Even though they didnt beat them in a "row," I suppose you can say its "odd." But "odder" things have happened when a team is in the middle of a hot streak.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Can we just accept that the Cardinals managed to put together a very good team in the past few months? Maybe it will get them a world series. Maybe it will get them a first round knock out and Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa end up going there own ways and Brett Wallace becomes a superstar and it ends up looking bad for them in the long run, but at this point in time, the Cardinals are a very good team. At first, they were a decent/lucky teamin an awful division taking advantage of the Cubs and Brewers underperformance, and realized that they could take the division and run with the right pieces. Well they got those pieces, and thats what they seem to be doing.

[webjim25]

Can we just accept that the Cardinals managed to put together a very good team in the past few months? Maybe it will get them a world series. Maybe it will get them a first round knock out and Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa end up going there own ways and Brett Wallace becomes a superstar and it ends up looking bad for them in the long run, but at this point in time, the Cardinals are a very good team. At first, they were a decent/lucky teamin an awful division taking advantage of the Cubs and Brewers underperformance, and realized that they could take the division and run with the right pieces. Well they got those pieces, and thats what they seem to be doing.

 

 

It might get them to their homes watching baseball on Direct TV in October.

Cardinals aint won nothin yet.

[UMFan83]

I'm a little late, but if the Cubs won a World Series, I would accept what happened in 2003 to happen the next 10 years, and I could care less. Cardinals fans just don't understand and I don't expect them to. Right now even MAKING the World Series would be like winning it.

[artvandalay]

General Cubs fans arguments (If it doesn't apply, don't take offense)

 

Cardinals play a bad team and win: "Cardinals are so lucky, they get to play this crap team while we play *insert over .500 NL team.* Baseball Gods hate us"

 

Cardinals play a good team and win: "I can't believe they beat *insert over .500 NL team here*, they are so lucky. The Baseball God's hate us"

 

The Cardinals are 16 games over .500, yet some of the Cubbie fans are so bitter and pathetic, they can't even acknowledge the Cardinals made the proper trades and now have a good team. Everything is luck on our side (Even though our best starter was out the last 2 years, and missed the first month of this season, our starting third basemen has been out all year, and our third starter was out for over a month). It's the same bull crap everyday with a select few of you. You don't have to give the Cardinals team any credit for being good, that's your prerogative, but it makes you look petty, jealous and stupid.

 

The Cubs were a better team in 2007 and 2008, The Cardinals have a better team then the Cubs, deal with it. It's not luck. It's not the Baseball God's cursing the Cubs. It's simply the Cardinals having superior talent.

 

I'll acknowledge the Cardinals are good but, superior talent? Come on. Lohse, Wellemeyer, Pinerio, Lugo, Thurston basically, anyone not named Pujols, Wainwright, Carpenter or Holliday are not good or superior at anything.

 

The difference between the cardinals and the cubs is organizational philosophy and good coaching. You talk about guys like Ryan Franklin, Joel Piniero, and such as luck but ignore the fact that none of their stats this year suggest that what they're doing is unsustainable. The only notable cardinal pitcher that has significantly outpaced his FIP up to this point in the season is Franklin, and his FIP is still only 3.02, which is not bad at all. Piniero's FIP is actually slightly LOWER than his actual ERA up to this point. If this were just one season of data it would be different, but you would think after all the other castoffs that TLR and DD have gotten a couple serviceable seasons out of that you wouldn't discount the possibility that maybe they're actually better at their jobs than most managers/pitching coaches.

 

As far as position players go- having the best player in the game goes a long way. factor in some of the underrated role players that the cardinals have (Brendan Ryan, Skip Schumaker, Colby Rasmus) and their lineup is just good enough to get by with the stellar pitching they get. Also, what exactly is there to complain about in regards to Skip Schumaker? He's just a run of the mill empty average decent OBP fourth outfielder type, but the way some cubs fans talk about him you'd think he was hitting 30 home runs a year or playing gold glove defense. Nothing he is doing or has done in the majors is at all different than what he has always been- a serviceable .280-.300 hitting guy that can play a few positions. The same goes for Brendan Ryan. He is exactly what he has always been- a light hitting phenomenal defensive shortstop.

 

Also, not a single one of those players you mentioned (that i bolded) have been a serious contributor to the cardinals' success this year. In fact, most of them have been amongst our absolute worst players this year. That would be like if a month ago I had cited Miles, Soriano, Freel, and Cotts as the reason for the Cubs' success up to that point.

[SouthSideRyan]

The veteran ace dying was like the 5th best pitcher on the team that year. The veteran ace that died also miraculous became good after being terrible in Colorado.

 

Um.. Actually he was the #2 starter on the team behind Morris, and the unquestioned leader of the pitching staff. He had 2 bad years in Colorado after a lot of success in Houston.

The only comparison that most Cub fans would understand today, is if Ted Lilly died suddenly.

 

I don't want to rehash a tragedy. I just wanted to point out that luck, both good and bad, is subjective. Not looking for sympathy, just trying to add some logic to the conversation.

 

Kile had 2 good seasons in Houston. 4 years apart.

 

The year he died he had the 4th best ERA on the team, a shade ahead of midseason acquisition(who probably never woulda been acquired without Kile dying) Chuck Finley. The unquesitoned leader? Sounds like sports talk [expletive] to me. It wasn't like the guy was a lifetime Cardinal, he was with them for 2 and a half seasons.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate the drooling pack that say pixie dust every 3rd post, but Daryl Kile dying, meh.

[illiniguy]

Can we just accept that the Cardinals managed to put together a very good team in the past few months? Maybe it will get them a world series. Maybe it will get them a first round knock out and Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa end up going there own ways and Brett Wallace becomes a superstar and it ends up looking bad for them in the long run, but at this point in time, the Cardinals are a very good team. At first, they were a decent/lucky teamin an awful division taking advantage of the Cubs and Brewers underperformance, and realized that they could take the division and run with the right pieces. Well they got those pieces, and thats what they seem to be doing.

I think they are a very good team. I think most people here do. Wainwright, Carpenter, Pujols, Holliday, and Dero are all very good players. The rest are kinda bleh, but that's all they need.

[SouthSideRyan]

The only reason I even care about the Cubs pulling off a miracle to knock out the Cards is that so RedVerbs will [expletive] leave for awhile again.

[nwg414]

Can we just accept that the Cardinals managed to put together a very good team in the past few months? Maybe it will get them a world series. Maybe it will get them a first round knock out and Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa end up going there own ways and Brett Wallace becomes a superstar and it ends up looking bad for them in the long run, but at this point in time, the Cardinals are a very good team. At first, they were a decent/lucky teamin an awful division taking advantage of the Cubs and Brewers underperformance, and realized that they could take the division and run with the right pieces. Well they got those pieces, and thats what they seem to be doing.

I think they are a very good team. I think most people here do. Wainwright, Carpenter, Pujols, Holliday, and Dero are all very good players. The rest are kinda bleh, but that's all they need.

 

Exactly, this could be said about most teams outside of the Yanks. All you need is a handful of these kind of players surrounded by guys that are the role player type.

[artvandalay]

Can we just accept that the Cardinals managed to put together a very good team in the past few months? Maybe it will get them a world series. Maybe it will get them a first round knock out and Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa end up going there own ways and Brett Wallace becomes a superstar and it ends up looking bad for them in the long run, but at this point in time, the Cardinals are a very good team. At first, they were a decent/lucky teamin an awful division taking advantage of the Cubs and Brewers underperformance, and realized that they could take the division and run with the right pieces. Well they got those pieces, and thats what they seem to be doing.

I think they are a very good team. I think most people here do. Wainwright, Carpenter, Pujols, Holliday, and Dero are all very good players. The rest are kinda bleh, but that's all they need.

 

Simply wrong. Brendan Ryan, Yadier Molina, and Colby Rasmus have all been nearly if not as valuable as any cub position player besides Derrek Lee this year. While Ludwick isn't a 35 home run player (and I don't think anyone would try to convince you that he ever was) he plays passable defense and hits enough to be a serviceable starter.

[illiniguy]

Can we just accept that the Cardinals managed to put together a very good team in the past few months? Maybe it will get them a world series. Maybe it will get them a first round knock out and Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa end up going there own ways and Brett Wallace becomes a superstar and it ends up looking bad for them in the long run, but at this point in time, the Cardinals are a very good team. At first, they were a decent/lucky teamin an awful division taking advantage of the Cubs and Brewers underperformance, and realized that they could take the division and run with the right pieces. Well they got those pieces, and thats what they seem to be doing.

I think they are a very good team. I think most people here do. Wainwright, Carpenter, Pujols, Holliday, and Dero are all very good players. The rest are kinda bleh, but that's all they need.

 

Simply wrong. Brendan Ryan, Yadier Molina, and Colby Rasmus have all been nearly if not as valuable as any cub position player besides Derrek Lee this year. While Ludwick isn't a 35 home run player (and I don't think anyone would try to convince you that he ever was) he plays passable defense and hits enough to be a serviceable starter.

This year, when our team has been crap. Let's put it this way, if DeRo and Holliday walk, those studs will have you right back to being very average.

How much better has Ryan been than Theriot? Rasmus than Fukudome?

[Keener98]

The only reason I even care about the Cubs pulling off a miracle to knock out the Cards is that so RedVerbs will [expletive] leave for awhile again.

 

Yup no kidding. I love how these Cards fans all of a sudden start showing up over here, but most of them havent been heard from for quite awile.

 

Stl fans actually expect to see respect given to the Cardinals on a Cubs board? Are you really that [expletive] ignorant..wait dont answer that. The same [expletive] that is being said here has been said about the Cubs the last 2 years on GRB. If you dont like it, then dont come here and read it. The Cardinals and most of their fans can go eff themselves as far as Im concerned.

[illiniguy]

Wait. Ryan Theriot has an OPS+ of 95. Brendan Ryan 91.

Fukudome has an OPS+ of 117. Colby Rasmus 93.

[artvandalay]

Wait. Ryan Theriot has an OPS+ of 95. Brendan Ryan 91.

Fukudome has an OPS+ of 117. Colby Rasmus 93.

 

I forgot that defense doesn't matter. My bad.

[illiniguy]

Wait. Ryan Theriot has an OPS+ of 95. Brendan Ryan 91.

Fukudome has an OPS+ of 117. Colby Rasmus 93.

 

I forgot that defense doesn't matter. My bad.

It better matter a ton for Rasmus to be better than Fukudome. Also Aramis Ramirez gets no mention? I guess he isn't very good either?