Pirates are stupid

[Jehrico]

Apparently, the Dodgers were interested in trading for Jack Wilson. Why, I have no idea. The Pirates asked for Chin-Lung Hu, Delwyn Young and a third prospect. The Dodgers have cut the talks off as a result.

 

Considering what he's due to get paid, the Pirates should have been happy if they would have taken him for free just to ditch his salary. Wilson is horrible. I guess new management is just as delusional as the old management over the same crappy players.

[jersey cubs fan]

I will never understand that organization or fan base's infatuation with that guy. I have a couple friends who are Pirates fans, and they'll bitch and moan about the team, but don't have any complaints about Jack Wilson. He's had just 2 acceptable big league seasons, is over 30 and ugly as sin. I don't see the attraction.

[OleMissCub]

damn yer eyes, Jack Wilson 'tis not man but beast!

[UMFan83]

I will never understand that organization or fan base's infatuation with that guy. I have a couple friends who are Pirates fans, and they'll bitch and moan about the team, but don't have any complaints about Jack Wilson. He's had just 2 acceptable big league seasons, is over 30 and ugly as sin. I don't see the attraction.

 

They probably don't get attached to their best or even average players because they will likely be gone sooner than later. That leaves Jack Wilson to love.

[jersey cubs fan]

I will never understand that organization or fan base's infatuation with that guy. I have a couple friends who are Pirates fans, and they'll bitch and moan about the team, but don't have any complaints about Jack Wilson. He's had just 2 acceptable big league seasons, is over 30 and ugly as sin. I don't see the attraction.

 

They probably don't get attached to their best or even average players because they will likely be gone sooner than later. That leaves Jack Wilson to love.

 

He was the face of the franchise. And I don't just mean that in an ugly face = ugly franchise sense. He was the guy in all those commercials on FSN Pittsburgh a few years back.

[Post Count Padder]

My friends who are Pirates fans hate him. They want him gone too. I feel bad for them, I really do. That organization sucks. But hey, they signed two Indian dudes who have only been playing baseball for a year. Gotta hand it to em.

[jersey cubs fan]

My friends who are Pirates fans hate him. They want him gone too. I feel bad for them, I really do. That organization sucks. But hey, they signed two Indian dudes who have only been playing baseball for a year. Gotta hand it to em.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, one of my friends hates him and wants him gone at any cost. The other guy has a soft spot for him and while he thinks the team has to trade him, he's of the belief that he's extremely valuable and doesn't want him traded for anything less than top notch blue chip players.

[wrigley23]

The O's are the exact same w/ Roberts. He is a very good player, but is certainly not worth what they think he is. He is a FA at the end of the year & they are talking about resigning him. Nevermind the fact that he'll be 38 by the time they compete again. MacPhail is a douche.

[rawaction]

Yeah, Pirates fans typically love Jack. Though I think now that it's more of the fact that they don't have anything resembling a good replacement for him (Bixler stinks). But I don't think he's been the face of the franchise for the last 2 years. Bay was before he got traded. McClouth is now.

[Jehrico]

The O's are the exact same w/ Roberts. He is a very good player, but is certainly not worth what they think he is. He is a FA at the end of the year & they are talking about resigning him. Nevermind the fact that he'll be 38 by the time they compete again. MacPhail is a douche.

To be fair, Angelos is the one with a hard on for Roberts and not MacPhail. Also, I can understand why the Orioles are hesitant about trading Roberts, as he is a very good player. Wilson, on the other hand, flat out sucks, and there is no reason to be holding out for anything more than a b-level prospect. They should have just tried to snag Hu from the Dodgers, and then jumped for joy if they agreed to it.

[wrigley23]

there is no reason to hold on to roberts or to resign him when you are in rebuild mode. they will not compete for years & by then the ship will have sailed for roberts. If he doesn't want to go to a winner then he is a loser right along w/ Giles.

[biittner77]

there is no reason to hold on to roberts or to resign him when you are in rebuild mode. they will not compete for years & by then the ship will have sailed for roberts. If he doesn't want to go to a winner then he is a loser right along w/ Giles.

 

I guess loyalty to the only franchise he's ever played for doesn't count for anything?

 

The O's, long term, probably are better off trading Roberts now but they still have to field a team and they still have to sell tickets. There asking price is high because Roberts is a very popular player and O's have aren't far enough removed from the glory days of Cal Ripken to embrace rebuilding. They should be but they aren't.

[Little Slide Rooter]

there is no reason to hold on to roberts or to resign him when you are in rebuild mode. they will not compete for years & by then the ship will have sailed for roberts. If he doesn't want to go to a winner then he is a loser right along w/ Giles.

 

I guess loyalty to the only franchise he's ever played for doesn't count for anything?

 

The O's, long term, probably are better off trading Roberts now but they still have to field a team and they still have to sell tickets. There asking price is high because Roberts is a very popular player and O's have aren't far enough removed from the glory days of Cal Ripken to embrace rebuilding. They should be but they aren't.

 

Loyalty schmoyalty, that franchise is a complete disastor, and have shown no signs of turning things around. If you have the chance, you should want to go to a contender, unless of course, you enjoy that extra month off.

[CoolHandLuke]

there is no reason to hold on to roberts or to resign him when you are in rebuild mode. they will not compete for years & by then the ship will have sailed for roberts. If he doesn't want to go to a winner then he is a loser right along w/ Giles.

 

I guess loyalty to the only franchise he's ever played for doesn't count for anything?

 

The O's, long term, probably are better off trading Roberts now but they still have to field a team and they still have to sell tickets. There asking price is high because Roberts is a very popular player and O's have aren't far enough removed from the glory days of Cal Ripken to embrace rebuilding. They should be but they aren't.

 

Loyalty schmoyalty, that franchise is a complete disastor, and have shown no signs of turning things around. If you have the chance, you should want to go to a contender, unless of course, you enjoy that extra month off.

 

They're at least pretty set at the Catcher spot for a long time.

[B]

I would expect the Pirates to be big players in the free agent market this year. They have been getting alot of ransom money lately from all those ships they've robbed. I look for them to go after Manny and another big name FA.

[inari]

there is no reason to hold on to roberts or to resign him when you are in rebuild mode. they will not compete for years & by then the ship will have sailed for roberts. If he doesn't want to go to a winner then he is a loser right along w/ Giles.

 

I guess loyalty to the only franchise he's ever played for doesn't count for anything?

 

The O's, long term, probably are better off trading Roberts now but they still have to field a team and they still have to sell tickets. There asking price is high because Roberts is a very popular player and O's have aren't far enough removed from the glory days of Cal Ripken to embrace rebuilding. They should be but they aren't.

 

Loyalty schmoyalty, that franchise is a complete disastor, and have shown no signs of turning things around. If you have the chance, you should want to go to a contender, unless of course, you enjoy that extra month off.

 

Baseball is a job. Players have a life outside of it. If I lived in a city that I loved, I might want to stay on a team even if they weren't very good.

[Derwood]

loyalty in baseball is a myth, and even if it was real, it wouldn't be important

[TruffleShuffle]

do i need to be the one who pops into this thread to say that jack wilson is a lot better than everyone thinks he is?

[Derwood]

do i need to be the one who pops into this thread to say that jack wilson is a lot better than everyone thinks he is?

 

OPS+ year-by-year:

 

40

67

70

104

74

77

105

77

[TruffleShuffle]

do i need to be the one who pops into this thread to say that jack wilson is a lot better than everyone thinks he is?

 

OPS+ year-by-year:

 

40

67

70

104

74

77

105

77

 

well using this stat only, ozzie smith was a lousy baseball player who has no business being in the hall of fame.

 

here's my statistical breakdown: defensive importance of shortstop, relative to other positions on the baseball field, year-by-year:

 

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

[JeffH]

I would really like it if I could find OPS+ adjusted for position. I suppose that might be tough to do, as a lot of guys move around between positions.

 

If Jack Wilson (or Shortstop X) has an overall OPS+ of 75, but an OPS+ of 95 relative to other shortstops, that makes him look a lot better and paints a more meaningful picture than comparing him offensively to Albert Pujols.

[Jehrico]

do i need to be the one who pops into this thread to say that jack wilson is a lot better than everyone thinks he is?

 

OPS+ year-by-year:

 

40

67

70

104

74

77

105

77

 

well using this stat only, ozzie smith was a lousy baseball player who has no business being in the hall of fame.

 

here's my statistical breakdown: defensive importance of shortstop, relative to other positions on the baseball field, year-by-year:

 

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

most important

Jack Wilson is no Ozzie Smith defensively. Not even close. And Smith shouldn't have been a first vote HOFer either. Bad argument.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Wilson is no Adam Everett defensively. And he's pretty much a lock for a sub-.700 OPS and a sub-.320 OBP. And he's 31 next season. And he makes more than 7 million. And he's only under team control for a year unless you want to pay him 8.4 million in 2010.

[TruffleShuffle]

Wilson is no Adam Everett defensively. And he's pretty much a lock for a sub-.700 OPS and a sub-.320 OBP. And he's 31 next season. And he makes more than 7 million. And he's only under team control for a year unless you want to pay him 8.4 million in 2010.

 

except he's eclipsed those numbers 2 of the past 6 years, which means it's hardly a lock. he adds probably 15 runs a year with his glove and plays a position where even average offensive players (o. cabrera) get paid $10M. paying jack wilson an average of $7M per year has very, very little to do with why the pirates have been so bad.

[Jehrico]

Wilson is no Adam Everett defensively. And he's pretty much a lock for a sub-.700 OPS and a sub-.320 OBP. And he's 31 next season. And he makes more than 7 million. And he's only under team control for a year unless you want to pay him 8.4 million in 2010.

 

except he's eclipsed those numbers 2 of the past 6 years, which means it's hardly a lock. he adds probably 15 runs a year with his glove and plays a position where even average offensive players (o. cabrera) get paid $10M. paying jack wilson an average of $7M per year has very, very little to do with why the pirates have been so bad.

Wilson was 27th out of 32 SSs with at least 300 PAs in VORP last year. His VORP was 2.7, which puts him at only slightly more productive than the average replacement player. Not worth it. He was 14th in 2007, 23d in 2006, 27th again in 2005, 6th in 2004, and 24th in 2003. So, only once in his career, in 2004, was he in the top third of all SSs in the league, once he was in the bottom third. The rest of his career he has been mired in the bottom third of all SSs.

 

His primary attribute is his glove. What percentage of defensive specialists have been able to maintain above average production defensively at the position of SSs? I don't know the number, but I know it's lower at SS than any other position. The guy's on the downside of his peak years, and is only going to go up in cost. Would you really give up any kind of talent like Pittsburgh was asking for on the gamble that Wilson will be able to maintain his glove into his mid-30s, while maybe once peaking and giving you league average production for his position offensively? Pittsburgh is dumb for not trying to move him for a realistic return.