Re: Peavy High on Cubs Wish List

[dew1679666265]

Replacement level players don't average over 400 AB's per season. I'm sure you could find a scrap heap 3rd baseman, to have a sub 700 OPS for maybe 150-200 AB's. But you're more likely find crappy ones that don't do that and hurt you're offense. I find it pretty hard to believe you will find a replacement level guy to put up Miles numbers for 400 AB's.

 

Alex Cintron had one season of a 112 OPS+ in 448 at bats - better than anything Miles has ever done.

Tony Womack had a season of 91 OPS+ in 553 at bats - eight points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

Damian Jackson had a season of 89 OPS+ in 470 at bats - 10 points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

 

And in Miles' best year (2007) he had just 379 at bats. He's had two seasons over 400 at bats - a 74 OPS+ and a 76 OPS+. He looks very, very similar to those bad, replacement level (or worse) players.

 

If you think Miles is a overpaid middle infielder thats fine, but then most back up middle infielders are then. Miles is getting the going rate for his type of player. We can bash Hendry all we want for worrying to much about depth and bench players. But I remember a time when Hendry didn't do that and how awful that was. The last two years he had plenty of depth, and when we had injuries we usually didn't miss a beat. Doesn't the memory of Rey Ordonez, Damian Jackson, Enquire Wilson, Tony Womack, Angel Pagan, Freddie Bynum getting regular playing time when we had injuries give anybody else nightmares? Those were guys we all picked up off the scrap heap and the outcome was very bad. I guess people forget how important good depth is to have when you have it. So they complain about spending too much money for a bench player. But if we had to trade DeRosa I'm glad Hendry brought in someone to replace him. If he just went with Cedeno in that spot, or just signed some scub, things could be very bad next season if we have a injury.

 

Miles is just some scrub. He's exactly the type of player the guys you listed are - scrubs grabbed off the scrap heap.

 

And if the going rate for his type of player is $2.5 mil a year, I'd rather stick with Cedeno. And I don't really like Cedeno.

[UMFan83]

No one might get Peavy if this goes through..

 

The Arizona Republic reports that Jeff Moorad has resigned from his post as CEO of the Arizona Diamondbacks in an attempt to acquire the San Diego Padres.

 

Team president Derrick Hall was promoted to President and CEO in Arizona. Padres fans will hope that Moorad's buying of the team might put a halt to all of the cost-cutting. Current Padres owner John Moores is currently going through a pricey divorce that is seemingly dragging down the enitre franchise.

 

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/2009/01/02/20090102moorad-CR.html

 

Yeah I'd imagine this would definitely end the Peavy sweepstakes.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

No one might get Peavy if this goes through..

 

The Arizona Republic reports that Jeff Moorad has resigned from his post as CEO of the Arizona Diamondbacks in an attempt to acquire the San Diego Padres.

 

Team president Derrick Hall was promoted to President and CEO in Arizona. Padres fans will hope that Moorad's buying of the team might put a halt to all of the cost-cutting. Current Padres owner John Moores is currently going through a pricey divorce that is seemingly dragging down the enitre franchise.

 

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/2009/01/02/20090102moorad-CR.html

 

Yeah I'd imagine this would definitely end the Peavy sweepstakes.

:pig:

[CUBZ99]

Replacement level players don't average over 400 AB's per season. I'm sure you could find a scrap heap 3rd baseman, to have a sub 700 OPS for maybe 150-200 AB's. But you're more likely find crappy ones that don't do that and hurt you're offense. I find it pretty hard to believe you will find a replacement level guy to put up Miles numbers for 400 AB's.

 

Alex Cintron had one season of a 112 OPS+ in 448 at bats - better than anything Miles has ever done.

Tony Womack had a season of 91 OPS+ in 553 at bats - eight points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

Damian Jackson had a season of 89 OPS+ in 470 at bats - 10 points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

 

And in Miles' best year (2007) he had just 379 at bats. He's had two seasons over 400 at bats - a 74 OPS+ and a 76 OPS+. He looks very, very similar to those bad, replacement level (or worse) players.

 

If you think Miles is a overpaid middle infielder thats fine, but then most back up middle infielders are then. Miles is getting the going rate for his type of player. We can bash Hendry all we want for worrying to much about depth and bench players. But I remember a time when Hendry didn't do that and how awful that was. The last two years he had plenty of depth, and when we had injuries we usually didn't miss a beat. Doesn't the memory of Rey Ordonez, Damian Jackson, Enquire Wilson, Tony Womack, Angel Pagan, Freddie Bynum getting regular playing time when we had injuries give anybody else nightmares? Those were guys we all picked up off the scrap heap and the outcome was very bad. I guess people forget how important good depth is to have when you have it. So they complain about spending too much money for a bench player. But if we had to trade DeRosa I'm glad Hendry brought in someone to replace him. If he just went with Cedeno in that spot, or just signed some scub, things could be very bad next season if we have a injury.

 

Miles is just some scrub. He's exactly the type of player the guys you listed are - scrubs grabbed off the scrap heap.

 

And if the going rate for his type of player is $2.5 mil a year, I'd rather stick with Cedeno. And I don't really like Cedeno.

 

You would rather have career .298 OBP Cedeno over $2.5MM Miles? Why? DeRosa has proven that a decent hitter that can play several positions can be valuable. The simple reason is that you have a good guess on what type of production you are going to get rather than playing roulette with your season. Can you imagine the Cubs having to count on McGehee's .160OBP or Cedeno's .298. For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds). Like Cubsfan26 pointed out, I would take Miles over a slew of other guys the Cubs picked up in the past, including Cedeno.

 

People need to get over the fact that Miles is never going to be a superstar. That is why he isn't getting paid anywhere near superstar money. Next year he will account for what, approximately 1.5% of the teams payroll?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds).

 

If Miles could do that consistently, he wouldn't be as much of a problem. But he's failed to do it pretty consistently.

[Illini Iceman]

For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds).

 

If Miles could do that consistently, he wouldn't be as much of a problem. But he's failed to do it pretty consistently.

 

Career OBP .329.

[CUBZ99]

For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds).

 

If Miles could do that consistently, he wouldn't be as much of a problem. But he's failed to do it pretty consistently.

 

He has a .329 career OBP and has been close to .330 all but one year. His splits are also very favorable for a platoon with Fontenot. Vs. LHP his OBP over the last three years jumps to .374. Not a bad option as a PH or to spell other players vs. LHP.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds).

 

If Miles could do that consistently, he wouldn't be as much of a problem. But he's failed to do it pretty consistently.

 

He has a .329 career OBP and has been close to .330 all but one year. His splits are also very favorable for a platoon with Fontenot. Vs. LHP his OBP over the last three years jumps to .374. Not a bad option as a PH or to spell other players vs. LHP.

 

Now that I don't disagree with. But there's a word for guys who can play an average but not impressive middle infield and be the right-handed half of a platoon: Fungible. They are a dime a dozen.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

:-))

[CUBZ99]

For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds).

 

If Miles could do that consistently, he wouldn't be as much of a problem. But he's failed to do it pretty consistently.

 

He has a .329 career OBP and has been close to .330 all but one year. His splits are also very favorable for a platoon with Fontenot. Vs. LHP his OBP over the last three years jumps to .374. Not a bad option as a PH or to spell other players vs. LHP.

 

Now that I don't disagree with. But there's a word for guys who can play an average but not impressive middle infield and be the right-handed half of a platoon: Fungible. They are a dime a dozen.

 

Unlikely. How many options were out there for the Cubs that put up a .374 OBP vs. LHP over the last three years? Once again, it sounds good when you make fun of Miles, and he is definitely not the type of player that you stake your season on, but he should be a solid platoon partner and he was pretty cheap.

[dew1679666265]

Replacement level players don't average over 400 AB's per season. I'm sure you could find a scrap heap 3rd baseman, to have a sub 700 OPS for maybe 150-200 AB's. But you're more likely find crappy ones that don't do that and hurt you're offense. I find it pretty hard to believe you will find a replacement level guy to put up Miles numbers for 400 AB's.

 

Alex Cintron had one season of a 112 OPS+ in 448 at bats - better than anything Miles has ever done.

Tony Womack had a season of 91 OPS+ in 553 at bats - eight points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

Damian Jackson had a season of 89 OPS+ in 470 at bats - 10 points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

 

And in Miles' best year (2007) he had just 379 at bats. He's had two seasons over 400 at bats - a 74 OPS+ and a 76 OPS+. He looks very, very similar to those bad, replacement level (or worse) players.

 

If you think Miles is a overpaid middle infielder thats fine, but then most back up middle infielders are then. Miles is getting the going rate for his type of player. We can bash Hendry all we want for worrying to much about depth and bench players. But I remember a time when Hendry didn't do that and how awful that was. The last two years he had plenty of depth, and when we had injuries we usually didn't miss a beat. Doesn't the memory of Rey Ordonez, Damian Jackson, Enquire Wilson, Tony Womack, Angel Pagan, Freddie Bynum getting regular playing time when we had injuries give anybody else nightmares? Those were guys we all picked up off the scrap heap and the outcome was very bad. I guess people forget how important good depth is to have when you have it. So they complain about spending too much money for a bench player. But if we had to trade DeRosa I'm glad Hendry brought in someone to replace him. If he just went with Cedeno in that spot, or just signed some scub, things could be very bad next season if we have a injury.

 

Miles is just some scrub. He's exactly the type of player the guys you listed are - scrubs grabbed off the scrap heap.

 

And if the going rate for his type of player is $2.5 mil a year, I'd rather stick with Cedeno. And I don't really like Cedeno.

 

You would rather have career .298 OBP Cedeno over $2.5MM Miles? Why? DeRosa has proven that a decent hitter that can play several positions can be valuable. The simple reason is that you have a good guess on what type of production you are going to get rather than playing roulette with your season. Can you imagine the Cubs having to count on McGehee's .160OBP or Cedeno's .298. For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds). Like Cubsfan26 pointed out, I would take Miles over a slew of other guys the Cubs picked up in the past, including Cedeno.

 

People need to get over the fact that Miles is never going to be a superstar. That is why he isn't getting paid anywhere near superstar money. Next year he will account for what, approximately 1.5% of the teams payroll?

 

When we're supposedly in a major budget crunch, I definitely would prefer to pay less for a crappy player. Cedeno is not good, Miles is slightly better. And as for knowing what we'll get from Miles - he's put up an OBP of .330 or better once, last year. His next two highest totals were .328 in 07 and .324 in 06. .330 might be the highest we could expect this year.

 

I have no problem with Miles not being a superstar. Theriot is not a superstar and I'm fine with him starting - but it's because he's very cheap. Miles and Theriot are similar players and Miles is getting paid $2 million more dollars than Theriot is. That's why I'm angry we traded DeRo and signed him.

[dew1679666265]

For as much bashing as has been going on over Miles, not every middle infielder in baseball can put up a .330 OBP (as pathetic as it sounds).

 

If Miles could do that consistently, he wouldn't be as much of a problem. But he's failed to do it pretty consistently.

 

He has a .329 career OBP and has been close to .330 all but one year. His splits are also very favorable for a platoon with Fontenot. Vs. LHP his OBP over the last three years jumps to .374. Not a bad option as a PH or to spell other players vs. LHP.

 

Now that I don't disagree with. But there's a word for guys who can play an average but not impressive middle infield and be the right-handed half of a platoon: Fungible. They are a dime a dozen.

 

Unlikely. How many options were out there for the Cubs that put up a .374 OBP vs. LHP over the last three years? Once again, it sounds good when you make fun of Miles, and he is definitely not the type of player that you stake your season on, but he should be a solid platoon partner and he was pretty cheap.

 

Miles' OBP vs LH over his career is .352.

 

Alex Cintron, who will likely get a minor league contract and be paid far less than Miles, has a career OBP vs LH of .343.

 

Cintron also, I believe, plays better defense. Is $2 million dollars and worse defense worth 9 points of career OBP against right handed batters?

[cubsfan26]

Alex Cintron had one season of a 112 OPS+ in 448 at bats - better than anything Miles has ever done.

Tony Womack had a season of 91 OPS+ in 553 at bats - eight points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

 

How much money did they make when they were putting up those numbers? Womack was very well paid then and was often a 4-6m player when he put those numbers up. Cintron made 1.9m in 2007, after his 06 season and before that he didn't make alot because he was a very young player. When the Cubs got those players they were scrubs, or were either hitting very poorly at the time, or coming off a bad season or two. So those are very bad examples, and even prove my point more. When you both Womack and Cintron were having good or simliar years, they were making Miles type money. Miles is coming off two solid back to back seasons for a bench player. 3 years from now if he drops off then he might be some scrub. But Miles is coming off two of his best seasons, and thats why he's getting paid the way he is.

 

Alex Cintron, who will likely get a minor league contract and be paid far less than Miles, has a career OBP vs LH of .343.

 

First of all Miles has had OBP of 377, 368 and 378 the last three seasons. So Miles has improved against LH pitching since earlier in his career. Second, I find it hard to believe that Alex Cintron is gonna sign a minor league deal after having a ok 08. He will only get a one year deal and probably only 1-1.5m due to his awful 07 season, but I don't see him signing a minor league deal. But the fact that we can't count on Cintron year to year is a decent reason to invest a little more money in Miles. But I seriously can't believe were still on this topic though. I think I have shown enough information to show that 2m plus is the going rate for players like Miles, like it or not. Here's a list of simliar or worse players to Miles and what they made last year.

 

Alex Cora- made 2m in 08(signed a 2y-4m deal after 06)

David Eckstein- made 4.5m in 08

Cesar Izturis- 2.8m in 08(signed a 2y 6m plus deal this offseason)

John McDonald- 1.9m in 08

Mark Loretta-2.7m in 08

Jamey Carroll-2.1m in 08

Craig Counsell-2.8m in 08

Ryan Freel -3m in 08

 

I know some of those guys are getting paid for defense, but there all worse hitters then Miles or have been worse hitters in recent years. So factor that in with Felipe Lopez, Nick Punto, Ramon Vazquez and what Jerry Hairston probably still will get. I think the going rate for the Aaron Miles type of bench player is close to 2m.

[dew1679666265]

Alex Cintron had one season of a 112 OPS+ in 448 at bats - better than anything Miles has ever done.

Tony Womack had a season of 91 OPS+ in 553 at bats - eight points worse than Miles' career year and better than any other year Miles has ever had.

 

How much money did they make when they were putting up those numbers? Womack was very well paid then and was often a 4-6m player when he put those numbers up. Cintron made 1.9m in 2007, after his 06 season. When the Cubs got these players they were scrubs, they were either hitting very poorly at the time, or coming off a bad season or two. So those are very bad examples, and even prove my point more. When you both Womack and Cintron having good or simliar years, they were making Miles money. Miles is coming off two solid back to back seasons for a bench player.

 

In 2003, Cintron's best year, he was being paid in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. He's never made more than $1.9 million.

 

In 2004, the year I cited for Womack, he was making $300,000. That was his best season in the majors.

 

Alex Cintron, who will likely get a minor league contract and be paid far less than Miles, has a career OBP vs LH of .343.

 

First of all Miles has had OBP of 377, 368 and 378 the last three seasons. So Miles has improved against LH pitching since earlier in his career. Second, I find it hard to believe that Alex Cintron is gonna sign a minor league deal after having a ok 08. He will only get a one year deal and probably only 1-1.5m due to his awful 07 season, but I don't see him signing a minor league deal. I seriously can't believe were still on this topic though. I think I have shown enough information to show that 2-2.5m is the going rate for players like Miles, like it or not. Here's a list of simliar or worse players to Miles and what they made last year.

 

Alex Cora- made 2m in 08(signed a 2y-4m deal after 06)

David Eckstein- made 4.5m in 08

Cesar Izturis- 2.8m in 08(signed a 2y 6m plus deal this offseason)

John McDonald- 1.9m in 08

Mark Loretta-2.7m in 08

Jamey Carroll-2.1m in 08

Craig Counsell-2.8m in 08

Ryan Freel -3m in 08

 

I know some of those guys are getting paid for defense, but there all worse hitters then Miles or have been worse hitters in recent years. So factor that in with Felipe Lopez, Nick Punto, Ramon Vazquez and what Jerry Hairston probably still will get. I think the going rate for the Aaron Miles type of bench player is close to 2m.

 

If I'm going to have bad baseball players coming off the bench for me, then I want cheap, bad players coming off the bench for me. If that means bringing kids up from the minors - fine.

 

I'm actually not that angry about the money Miles is getting. I'm more confused that if we're that cash strapped, why we don't get a little worse production for a lot less cost (Cedeno) instead of paying a very valuable $2.5 million to a very mediocre player.

 

That $2.5 million could have not gone to Miles and instead been put together with the $10 million we're paying Bradley and come really close to signing Dunn. That would have been a better move.

[cubsfan26]

In 2003, Cintron's best year, he was being paid in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. He's never made more than $1.9 million.

 

In 2004, the year I cited for Womack, he was making $300,000. That was his best season in the majors.

 

 

Thats because Cintron was a young player, and not making any money yet. Womack was a bargin in 2004, but thats because he was bad in 03(we had him that season to). I'm not saying you can't find bargins with scrubs sometimes, but alot of the time you just get crap, and it hurts your roster if you have injuries. Just like we did in 2004-2006 when we had injury problems.

 

 

 

That $2.5 million could have not gone to Miles and instead been put together with the $10 million we're paying Bradley and come really close to signing Dunn. That would have been a better move.

 

The Cubs can't count on Cedeno being part of a platoon with Fontenot, or a quality fill in guy if we have a big injury. I would have been very upset if we traded DeRosa, and didn't bring in any infield depth, or someone to platoon with Fontenot. The Cubs might be able to sign Dunn for 10m, there isn't much of a market for him. But the fact is they don't want Dunn defense in the outfield, and would rather have Bradley over Dunn. If Bradley is even healthy for 120 games he's the better move IMO, when you factor in defense. But his injury history is a big concern of course. I will agree with you that some of these moves look questionable. But like I said yesturday I believe Hendry deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

 

 

 

A few years ago many were freaking out about signing DeRosa and Lilly, both moves worked out very well. People thought signing Jason Marquis was gonna be an awful contract, and trading for Jason Kendall was awful. For the most part both of those moves ended up working out pretty decent. Last offseason some were mad we gave away Jacque Jones for nothing. After the way Jones went in the tank, that looks like a great move now. Nobody thought Dempster would be even a decent starter, very few thought Wood could stay healthy enough to be the closer, and very few thought Theriot could improve at the plate. Some were even worried about Soto, and thought we needed a better back up catcher in Blanco as insurance. All those moves worked out very well for us. Then pretty much this whole board hated the idea of signing Jim Edmonds, and it was a great move. Yeah I know signing Fukudome looks bad so far, and trades for Craig Monroe and Steve Trachsel for crap don't look great. But Fukudome still might bounce back, and the other trades ended up being crap for crap. So with his track record the last two years, I'm willing to bet that some of these questionable moves work out better then expected. I know Hendry doesn't have a great track record over six years, but over the last two years it's pretty darn good, and he's shown signs of improvements as a GM.

[NonProfitCow]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

[CUBZ99]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

 

It's ok if your bitter. We understand. BTW are you the guy that posts the Youtube?

[NonProfitCow]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

 

It's ok if your bitter. We understand. BTW are you the guy that posts the Youtube?

I think you're missing the point.

[SouthSideRyan]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

 

Didn't mgl have a hard on for his defense?

[CUBZ99]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

 

It's ok if your bitter. We understand. BTW are you the guy that posts the Youtube?

I think you're missing the point.

 

I think not.

[SouthSideRyan]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

 

Didn't mgl have a hard on for his defense?

 

After checking UZR, apparently not. He doesn't grade him out as awful though, and had him as above average in '08.(Not to say mgl is necessarily right, just responding to my wrong memory)

[NonProfitCow]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

 

Didn't mgl have a hard on for his defense?

If so I would imagine that it would be at 2nd. Having Izturis and Pujols flanking him would also help quite a bit I would imagine. I personally believe that is why Kennedy had such an outstanding 08 defensively according to Dewan.

[NonProfitCow]

Cardinal fan chiming in here...

 

I think a couple of guys here don't realize how awful the guy is defensively. He has no speed, no arm and no range. His only skill is the ability to make contact.

 

It's ok if your bitter. We understand. BTW are you the guy that posts the Youtube?

I think you're missing the point.

 

I think not.

So you really think that I am just bitter that he was signed by the Cubs? You don't think there is a chance that I'm elated that he signed with the Cubs so I don't have to put up with him being a butcher in the field and put up mid 70's OPS+ full of singles?

[haltz]

Eh, if anything Pujols would hurt Kennedy by being so aggressive to his right.

 

When the Cardinals got him, Miles was basically a trade throw-in that looked like he was headed to triple-A so I'm not sure how much his defensive projections really had to do with it. STATs UZR doesn't like him either IIRC.

[NonProfitCow]

Eh, if anything Pujols would hurt Kennedy by being so aggressive to his right.

 

When the Cardinals got him, Miles was basically a trade throw-in that looked like he was headed to triple-A so I'm not sure how much his defensive projections really had to do with it. STATs UZR doesn't like him either IIRC.

Larry Bigbie. Dude's gonna rake.