Baseball History Thread

OleMissCub · July 2, 2008

Here's a question we've been pondering here at work today:

Assuming Pete Rose were HOF eligible, would he even be the best player not in the Hall? It may seem absurd to think Santo was actually better than Rose (who absolutely has Santo beat on longevity, for better or worse), but statistically Santo actually has an edge in non-counting stats.

Although, I'm the kind of person that thinks Rose is one of the most overrated players in baseball history, a glorified slap-hitter over the last 15 years of his career with a good eye.

Rose is certainly a Hall of Famer, but he is terrifically overrated because of his hits record, which he only achieved by hanging around well past his usefulness as a player and to the detriment of his team.

During his last 4 years, Rose was a. 256 hitter with a .305 slugging and 2 homeruns in his final 1748 PA. For a guy that couldn't run, or field, or do anything else, he was a real drag on his team. He abused his position as manager to keep inserting himself in the lineup for years, all while much better players than him at that point rotted on the bench.

Funny thing about the hits record is that it took Rose 2,619 more AB's to get those hits than Cobb.

As far as best player not in the HOF, I'd go with Shoeless Joe or Santo.

Derwood · July 2, 2008

As far as best player not in the HOF, I'd go with Shoeless Joe or Santo.

and in about 5 years, you'll be able to add Sosa and Bonds to that list

OleMissCub · July 2, 2008

I understand why he got the support that he got being that he hated the media, but Albert Belle only got a total of 59 votes combined in the two years that he was actually on the ballot.

Look at the love that Puckett got compared to Belle. Both were players with career numbers that were heading toward HOF numbers but were cut short by injuries. Puckett was a first ballot Hall of Famer and Belle got 59 total votes, ever. Puckett was probably the better all-around player on account of his defense, with Belle being the superior hitter, but Puckett obviously wins out in the court of public opinion (or did at that time at least).

Belle's 162 game avg in 12 seasons: 6673 PA's, .295/.369/.564, 143 OPS+, 40 HR, 130 RBI, 41 doubles, 182 hits, 101 runs, 89.6 WARP3

Puckett's 162 game avg in 12 seasons: 7831 PA's, .318/.360/.477, 124 OPS+, 19 HR, 99 RBI, 38 doubles, 209 hits, 97 runs, 87.1 WARP3

Derwood · July 2, 2008

it's amazing how much personality plays in voting. It's a shame that guys like Belle, Alomar, etc. will have a tougher time getting votes because of non-baseball things. the HoF is becoming a sham

OleMissCub · July 2, 2008

it's amazing how much personality plays in voting. It's a shame that guys like Belle, Alomar, etc. will have a tougher time getting votes because of non-baseball things. the HoF is becoming a sham

Alomar should be a first ballot HOF, but I really don't know if he will be though. Seems like alot of the dumbass voters use this "first ballot" thing as punishment against players they don't like, but know are HOF worthy. In my mind, a player is either a HOFer or they aren't. If they are, then vote for them the first time.

In my mind (this is obviously a homer view) they jumped the shark when Ryno didn't get in on his first chance.

fromthestretch · July 2, 2008

it's amazing how much personality plays in voting. It's a shame that guys like Belle, Alomar, etc. will have a tougher time getting votes because of non-baseball things. the HoF is becoming a sham

So you're saying Wood gets in?

OleMissCub · July 2, 2008

Footage I uploaded today of Lou Gehrig's speech. Those shots of him crying are heartbreaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4msaZTJrTA

He truly is the ultimate "life lesson."

Gehrig's 162 game avg: .340/.447/.632, 179 OPS+, 37 HR, 40 doubles, 12 triples, 149 RBI, 141 runs, 204 hits, and was by all accounts a tremendously gifted first baseman.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/gehrig-1.gif

Dead at age 37.

Clem Fandango · July 2, 2008

I understand why he got the support that he got being that he hated the media, but Albert Belle only got a total of 59 votes combined in the two years that he was actually on the ballot.

Look at the love that Puckett got compared to Belle. Both were players with career numbers that were heading toward HOF numbers but were cut short by injuries. Puckett was a first ballot Hall of Famer and Belle got 59 total votes, ever. Puckett was probably the better all-around player on account of his defense, with Belle being the superior hitter, but Puckett obviously wins out in the court of public opinion (or did at that time at least).

Belle's 162 game avg in 12 seasons: 6673 PA's, .295/.369/.564, 143 OPS+, 40 HR, 130 RBI, 41 doubles, 182 hits, 101 runs, 89.6 WARP3

Puckett's 162 game avg in 12 seasons: 7831 PA's, .318/.360/.477, 124 OPS+, 19 HR, 99 RBI, 38 doubles, 209 hits, 97 runs, 87.1 WARP3

Albert Belle won't get in because of his off the field attitude. The reason he won't get in IMO is because he got busted for the corked bats. And not just one corked bat like Sammy supposedly did. All his bats were corked.

From a Page 2 article a while back about "The biggest cheaters in baseball"...

4. Albert Belle (OF, DH, Indians, White Sox, Orioles, 1989-2000)
Albert Belle
Albert Belle reportedly used more cork than a vintner.

On July 15, 1994, Belle's bat was confiscated by umpire Dave Phillips after White Sox manager Gene Lamont voiced his suspicion that the bat was corked. The Indians knew it was corked, and set out to replace the bat, which Phillips had put in his locker. During the game, Indians pitcher Jason Grimsley wriggled through a crawl space above the ceiling above the umpires' locker room, dropped through an escape hatch, and replaced the corked model with a conventional one. "My heart was going 1,000 miles a second," said Grimsley. "I just rolled the dice, a crapshoot."

But the caper was easily found out -- the faux Belle model Grimsley had put in Phillips locker had Paul Sorrento's name on it. Belle was suspended for seven games. In his autobiography, released just a few weeks ago, former Belle teammate Omar Vizquel wrote about the "Batgate" incident: "I can be naive at times, but I'm not stupid. Certainly not stupid enough to steal Albert's corked bat and replace it with one that looked completely different -- one that was autographed by Paul Sorrento. That wasn't even a nice try. The problem, of course, was that all of Albert's bats were corked."

If there's one glaring reason why they won't let him in, there it is. Even if he hit all those home runs after the incident occurred, that will tarnish his skills to get him in, IMO.

That's a good article by the way, very entertaining, and also quite a good read for this thread...

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html

OleMissCub · July 3, 2008

I saw a baseball history site that was asking for people to come up with a lineup of players from a particular franchise who played ONLY for that franchise in their career. The Cubs is almost impossible.

I tried really hard and this was the best I could do:

C: Soto (seriously...we don't have any other catchers in our entire franchise history that were worth a crap who played exclusively for the Cubs).

1B: Cap Anson (he played with teams before the Cubs existed, but that shouldn't count)

2B: Don Johnson (ya, really, that's the best I could come up with)

3B: Stan Hack

SS: Ernie Banks

OF: I can't come up with anyone for any of the three spots...it's that bad.

P: Zambrano

We'd have a badass team, but so many of our greats like Chance, Hartnett, Santo, Sandberg, or Williams had like 200 AB's or less elsewhere.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/pos.shtml

bukie · July 3, 2008

What? No Kerry Wood? :)

bukie · July 3, 2008

Geez, even guys like Phil Cavaretta spent a year with another team (was going to suggest him for OF since he played some there, but he played a year with the WSox).

So...an outfield of Murton, Pie and Eric Patterson/Micah Hoffpaiur...?

Rob · July 3, 2008

If there's one glaring reason why they won't let him in, there it is. Even if he hit all those home runs after the incident occurred, that will tarnish his skills to get him in, IMO.

That's a good article by the way, very entertaining, and also quite a good read for this thread...

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html

Corking the bat doesn't really help a batter out much (if at all). There are tons of studies on it if you feel like researching it.

OleMissCub · July 3, 2008

An interesting story about Black Sox pitcher Eddie Cicotte from Ty Cobb's My Life in Baseball from 1961:

Cicotte had everyone mystified. He'd kicked around the league a while with only medium success, and suddenly came up with the strangest pitch I've ever seen. Knuckles Eddie began to win 18 to 29 games a season with a ball that looked soft-boiled when it reached the plate. No matter how closely you focused on it, you never could see the thing break. It looked like Cicotte had nothing - then you were swinging at a phantom. Even when he threw it letter-high, where I liked a pitch, I'd cut under the ball. He kept winging that devil ball in there until 1920, when the Black Sox scandal threw Cicotte out of baseball.

Maybe it was a reverse spitter. I always had a hunch that Cicotte applied dampness to the ball with some foreign substance in such a way to get an extra amount of spin from his first two fingers, causing the ball to hop upward instead of falling away like a spitball sinker. Or it could have been a take-off on the "shine" ball, as Cicotte himself once hinted. Some old time pitchers kept a little cache of transparent paraffin on the side of one pants leg, or used talcum powder, to slick up one side of the ball. It did pretty tricks, take my word.

All I'm sure of is that Cicotte had me drawing some "magnificent hoots" (heckles from spectators on account of sloppy swings). From 1915-1920, Babe Ruth never touched Cicotte for more than a double. Earlier I was his pigeon. Not forever, though. Some applied study gave me an idea of how to neutralize Cicotte somewhat.

It began in the ninth inning of a tight game when I was batting lead-off. When I stepped into the box, I paid absolutely no attention to the Chicago ace. I half-turned and began a conversation with Sam Crawford, who was swinging two bats and waiting his turn at the plate. My eyes were on Sam. "Get any good duck-hunting last winter, Sam?" I asked.
"Fair," said Crawford, catching on. "But there was more grouse than anything else down home."
"Sometime you've got to join me in a shoot down around New Orleans, Sam."
"Alright, Tyrus."

It was as if Cicotte didn't exist. My bat wasn't even raised. And yet I was in the box, legally placed, and he was required to pitch. He'd never seen anything like it - a batter who wouldn't look at the ball about to come speeding toward him.

He was so rattled that on four straight pitched balls he didn't find the plate, and I walked. The base on balls to a man who had his back turned made Cicotte so made that he blew up at me and was ejected from the game.

Eddie Cicotte:

http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/bd9d03ba84_cicc.jpg

Ty Cobb and "Wahoo" Sam Crawford (all time leader in triples):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/SamCrawford4.jpg

Edited July 4, 2008 by OleMissCub

OleMissCub · July 4, 2008

Win Shares ranking according to players who played every game of their career with one team:

Stan Musial - STL - LF - 604 WS

Mickey Mantle - NYY - CF - 565

Walter Johnson -WSH - P - 560

Ted Williams - BOS - LF - 555

Mel Ott - NYG - RF - 528

Lou Gehrig - NYY - 1B - 489

Carl Yastrzemski - BOS - LF - 488

Mike Schmidt - PHI - 3B - 467

Al Kaline - DET - RF - 443

George Brett - KCR - 3B - 432

Craig Biggio - HOU - 2B - 431

Cal Ripken - BAL - SS - 427

Robin Yount - MIL - SS - 423

Tony Gwynn - SDP - RF - 398

Jeff Bagwell - HOU - 1B - 388

Joe DiMaggio - NYY - CF - 387

Charlie Gehringer - DET - 2B - 383

Luke Appling - CHW - SS - 378

Robert Clemente - PIT - RF - 377

Willie Stargell - PIT - LF - 370

bukie · July 4, 2008

Win Shares ranking according to players who played every game of their career with one team:

Stan Musial - STL - LF - 604 WS
Mickey Mantle - NYY - CF - 565
Walter Johnson -WSH - P - 560
Ted Williams - BOS - LF - 555
Mel Ott - NYG - RF - 528
Lou Gehrig - NYY - 1B - 489
Carl Yastrzemski - BOS - LF - 488
Mike Schmidt - PHI - 3B - 467
Al Kaline - DET - RF - 443
George Brett - KCR - 3B - 432
Craig Biggio - HOU - 2B - 431
Cal Ripken - BAL - SS - 427
Robin Yount - MIL - SS - 423
Tony Gwynn - SDP - RF - 398
Jeff Bagwell - HOU - 1B - 388
Joe DiMaggio - NYY - CF - 387
Charlie Gehringer - DET - 2B - 383
Luke Appling - CHW - SS - 378
Robert Clemente - PIT - RF - 377
Willie Stargell - PIT - LF - 370

I'm a little surprised Ernie Banks isn't on that list.

OleMissCub · July 4, 2008

Stan Musial is the most underrated living baseball player. Opinions?

This is what got me thinking about that. According to his metrical HOF Monitor, which basically combines all the metrics about what a player did during his career, Bill James' all-time leading batsman are:

454 - Stan Musial

451 - Ty Cobb

423 - Hank Aaron

422 - Babe Ruth

372 - Willie Mays

354 - Ted Williams

353 - Barry Bonds

352 - Lou Gehrig

349 - Rogers Hornsby

316 - Alex Rodriguez

Imagine if Stan the Man had played in New York or Boston??

Edited July 4, 2008 by OleMissCub

OleMissCub · July 4, 2008

I'm a little surprised Ernie Banks isn't on that list.

I agree. He must have JUST missed it. He's credited with 333 Win Shares.

NCCubFan · July 4, 2008

I saw a baseball history site that was asking for people to come up with a lineup of players from a particular franchise who played ONLY for that franchise in their career. The Cubs is almost impossible.

I tried really hard and this was the best I could do:

C: Soto (seriously...we don't have any other catchers in our entire franchise history that were worth a crap who played exclusively for the Cubs).
1B: Cap Anson (he played with teams before the Cubs existed, but that shouldn't count)
2B: Don Johnson (ya, really, that's the best I could come up with)
3B: Stan Hack
SS: Ernie Banks
OF: I can't come up with anyone for any of the three spots...it's that bad.
P: Zambrano

We'd have a badass team, but so many of our greats like Chance, Hartnett, Santo, Sandberg, or Williams had like 200 AB's or less elsewhere.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/pos.shtml

OF: Adam Greenberg. Hard to beat a career OBP of 1.000. :D

SouthSideRyan · July 4, 2008

Thanks to BR I found an OF http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/langebi01.shtml

He's the only guy not listed in this thread in the top 50 of PAs.

You can add Fukudome and I guess Murton as the 3 OFs.

OleMissCub · July 6, 2008

Some of the quirky awards that Bill James gives out in The New Bill James Historical Abstract:

Most Admirable and Least Admirable Superstars per decade (in obvious order):

1900's

Christy Mathewson

Hal Chase

1910's

Christy Mathewson

Ty Cobb

1920's

Lou Gehrig

Rogers Hornsby

1930's

Charlie Gehringer

Joe Medwick

1940's

Stan Musial

--

1950's

Ernie Banks

--

1960's

Roberto Clemente

--

1970's

Willie Stargell

Reggie Jackson

1980's

Dale Murphy

Steve Carlton

1990's

Greg Maddux

Albert Belle

Negro Leagues

Rube Foster

John Beckwith

Best Power/Speed Combination:

1900's: Honus Wagner

1910's: Frank "Home Run" Baker

1920's: Kenny Williams

1930's: Ben Chapman

1940's: Joe Dimaggio

1950's: Willie Mays

1960's: Willie Mays

1970's: Bobby Bonds

1980's: Rickey Henderson

1990's: Barry Bonds

Negro Leagues: Oscar Charleston

Hardest Throwing Pitcher

00's: Walter Johnson

10's: Walter Johnson

20's: Lefty Grove

30's: Bob Feller

40's: Bob Feller

50's: Steve Dalkowski

60's: Sam McDowell

70's: Nolan Ryan

80's: Nolan Ryan

90's: Randy Johnson

Negro Leagues: Smokey Joe Williams

One of a Kind:

00's: Rube Waddell

10's: Ty Cobb

20's: Dazzy Vance (only player who had a Hall of Fame career entirely after age 30)

30's: Willard Hershberger (only player to commit suicide during the season)

40's: Rip Sewell

50's: Gene Conley (only player ever to sustain successful careers in the NBA and the majors)

60's: Ernie Banks

70's: Mark Fidrych

80's: Rob Deer

90's: Jeff Montgomery (only four-pitch relief ace in major league history)

Negro Leagues: Buck O'Neil

Best Player Who Never Won the MVP Award:

30's: Mel Ott

40's: Johnny Mize

50's: Eddie Mathews

60's: Al Kaline

70's: Dave Winfield

80's: Eddie Murray

90's: Tony Gwynn

Highest Paid Player:

00's: Nap Lajoie

10's: Ty Cobb

20's: Babe Ruth (Ruth's $80,000 would be roughly equivalent to $750,000 in today's money)

30's: Babe Ruth

40's: Bob Feller

50's: Ted Williams (1959: $125,000)

60's: Willie Mays ($145,000)

70's: Dave Parker (In 1979 became the first player to earn a million dollars a year)

80's: Mark Davis ($13 million for four years)

90's: Albert Belle

Negro Leagues: Satchel Paige

Worst Award Selection:

30's: 1938, Ernie Lombardi over Mel Ott as NL MVP

40's: 1942, Joe Gordon over Ted Williams as AL MVP

50's: 1952, Hank Sauer selected as NL MVP

60's: 1965, Jim Lefebvre picked over Joe Morgan as NL ROY

70's: 1979, Willie Stargell as NL co-MVP. Willie Stargell wasn't one of the thirty best players in the NL in 1979.

80's: 1982, Pete Vuckovich wins the AL Cy Young award. He is probably the worst pitcher ever to win the award.

90's: 1990, Bob Welch wins the AL Cy Young award.

OleMissCub · July 6, 2008

Jaw dropping stat of the day for me:

Imagine a guy getting second in MVP voting who puts up these numbers: .424/.507/.696, 222 OPS+, 25 HR, 43 doubles, 14 triples, 94 RBI, 121 runs.

That was Rajah in 1924.

TruffleShuffle · July 6, 2008

Jaw dropping stat of the day for me:

Imagine a guy getting second in MVP voting who puts up these numbers: .424/.507/.696, 222 OPS+, 25 HR, 43 doubles, 14 triples, 94 RBI, 121 runs.

That was Rajah in 1924.

or .406/.553/.735, 235 OPS+, 37 HR, 33 doubles, 120 RBI, 135 runs. ted williams lost out to joe dimaggio (joke) in 1941.

joe's numbers: .357/.440/.643, 30 HR, 43 doubles, 11 triples, 125 RBI, 122 runs

the next year ted went for:

.356/.499/.648, 217 OPS+, 36 HR, 34 doubles, 137 RBI, 141 runs...

and lost to joe gordon of (who else) the yankees, who had:

.322/.409/.491, 155 OPS+, 18 HR, 29 doubles, 103 RBI, 88 runs

then after winning the MVP in 1946 - basically his next season since he missed 1943-45 to the war, he got screwed over again in 1947:

williams: .343/.499/.634, 205 OPS+, 32 HR, 9 triples, 40 doubles, 114 RBI, 125 runs

dimaggio: .315/.391/.522, 154 OPS+, 20 HR, 10 triples, 31 doubles, 97 RBI, 97 runs

my favorite, though, is 1949. ted won the MVP that year, getting 13 first place votes... but phil rizzuto had 5 first place votes and finished second. here's a comparison of their numbers:

williams: .343/.490/.650, 192 OPS+, 43 HR, 3 triples, 39 doubles, 159 RBI, 150 runs

rizzuto: .275/.352/.358, 88 OPS+, 5 HR, 7 triples, 22 runs, 65 RBI, 110 runs

is there any better argument to invalidate the MVP award? five voters - more than 20% of the voting pool - thought that phil rizzuto was a more valuable player in 1949 than ted williams was! that's the dumbest thing ever.

OleMissCub · July 6, 2008

LOL, Phil Rizzuto???

I'm absolutely positive there could be a scientific study done that absolutely proves the existence of an east coast bias and more specifically a New York bias. The year Rajah got stiffed it was a player from the Brooklyn Dodgers who beat him.

Perhaps one of the reasons Teddy lost so much was because the media weren't fans of his, which of course shows the dumbness of the MVP award in that it is really often times nothing more than a popularity contest and is susceptible to extreme bandwagoning i.e. Jimmy Rollins last year.

OleMissCub · July 6, 2008

A blurb from a September, 1941 issue of Sports Illustrated about Ted Williams:

You can say this about the Kid: He does some damage. He hit a shot here today in Shibe Park that punched a hole in one of Connie Mack's loudspeaker horns way out there in right center. You add that bit of destruction to the lights he took out in Fenway last year while he was taking target practice with a .22 on the 400-foot sign, and you've got to admit that Ted Williams is a player who brings a lot of overhead to the ballpark. If the Kid continues to dismantle American League stadiums piece by piece, well, the boys in the press box will have to come up with another nickname for him - maybe the Splendid Splinter or some such.

RynoRules · July 6, 2008

Ozzie Smith career:

.262 / .337 / .328 / 87 OPS-plus

Scooter career:

.273 / .351 / .355 / 93

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