What about Griffey?

[nilodnayr]

Forget Griffey.

If the Reds are trading outfielders, go for Dunn.

 

Move Fukudome to CF, Soriano to RF, Dunn if LF. I likey!

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48033&start=75

 

I only beat ya by about 15 hours... I would love that lineup.

 

Um, Vance beat you by what, 3 or 4 years.

[slieb85]

Forget Griffey.

If the Reds are trading outfielders, go for Dunn.

 

Move Fukudome to CF, Soriano to RF, Dunn if LF. I likey!

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48033&start=75

 

I only beat ya by about 15 hours... I would love that lineup.

 

Um, Vance beat you by what, 3 or 4 years.

 

I mean mentioning it with this team as an option right now. I'm sure he's the only one who wanted Dunn over the last few years. :roll:

[nilodnayr]

Forget Griffey.

If the Reds are trading outfielders, go for Dunn.

 

Move Fukudome to CF, Soriano to RF, Dunn if LF. I likey!

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48033&start=75

 

I only beat ya by about 15 hours... I would love that lineup.

 

Um, Vance beat you by what, 3 or 4 years.

 

I mean mentioning it with this team as an option right now. I'm sure he's the only one who wanted Dunn over the last few years. :roll:

 

I was just playin with you...although Vance was penciling in Dunn and Fukudome into our OF 3 years ago.

[Jehrico]

I've posted it before, but heres mgl's rant about how griffey is the worst full time player in baseball and possibly worst in the history of the game.

 

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_2008_pre_season/#158

That's a freaking horrible analysis. I'm a saber guy myself, but this guys application is as dorked up as I think you can get. There's no way Griffey is one of the worst full time starters in the history of the game. I'm by no means a Griffey fan myself, I don't want him on our team. But I don't even have to think hard and I can come up with several examples that I don't think anyone would argue are worse than him. Many of them former Cubs. Neifi, Jeff Blauser anyone?

 

Thats a pretty hardcore saber retort you just provided there...

 

And Griffey just scored one in the mgl column in what will most definitely go down as the great saber Griffey debate between Jericho and the #1b guy in all of statistical baseball analysis.

Let's see here...

"Convert those CF numbers to RF (add +8 or +10 maybe?), take a weighted average, age adjust, and then regress to a 39 yo player with a terrible speed score, and I guarantee you are going to get a number a low worse than -15."

Yeah, that sounds real scientific. Add on top of that, no disclosure of how he calculates "throws," coupled with arbitrarily giving him -5, I don't see any real analysis. I see abuse of metrics. Add the common sense test on top of that. You can't seriously assert that Griffey is one of the worst regular players in the history of the game. He did, but he didn't offer up any comparisons whatsoever. He must not have done any research whatsoever before making that statement. Just think about that one, who all could be considered as worse players of all time? I wouldn't even consider Griffey for worse regular player of the 2000s, much less all time.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'll say a lot of rotten things about mgl, but I'll never accuse him of not doing the research that leads to his statements.

[nilodnayr]

I've posted it before, but heres mgl's rant about how griffey is the worst full time player in baseball and possibly worst in the history of the game.

 

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_2008_pre_season/#158

That's a freaking horrible analysis. I'm a saber guy myself, but this guys application is as dorked up as I think you can get. There's no way Griffey is one of the worst full time starters in the history of the game. I'm by no means a Griffey fan myself, I don't want him on our team. But I don't even have to think hard and I can come up with several examples that I don't think anyone would argue are worse than him. Many of them former Cubs. Neifi, Jeff Blauser anyone?

 

Thats a pretty hardcore saber retort you just provided there...

 

And Griffey just scored one in the mgl column in what will most definitely go down as the great saber Griffey debate between Jericho and the #1b guy in all of statistical baseball analysis.

Let's see here...

"Convert those CF numbers to RF (add +8 or +10 maybe?), take a weighted average, age adjust, and then regress to a 39 yo player with a terrible speed score, and I guarantee you are going to get a number a low worse than -15."

Yeah, that sounds real scientific. Add on top of that, no disclosure of how he calculates "throws," coupled with arbitrarily giving him -5, I don't see any real analysis. I see abuse of metrics. Add the common sense test on top of that. You can't seriously assert that Griffey is one of the worst regular players in the history of the game. He did, but he didn't offer up any comparisons whatsoever. He must not have done any research whatsoever before making that statement. Just think about that one, who all could be considered as worse players of all time? I wouldn't even consider Griffey for worse regular player of the 2000s, much less all time.

 

First addressing the "worst player of all time"...I take that as a hyperbole. You are absolutely correct he didn't test this against anyone else (or more accurately say "projects to be" the worst player of all time), but I can put my critical reading hat on too and come to the conclusion that it is meant as a hyperbole.

 

And as for the defensive metric, yeah, thats pretty scientific. Does he spell it out exactly how he calculates all of those adjustments? No. Does he really need to? No. He doesn't need to prove his credentials to the people reading the comments of his own blog? If you don't think mgl can calc weighted averages, age adjust, and regress, then just ignore anything anyone posts about him. He uses UZR, weights based on how recent the experience was (I think 5,4,3,2). 8-10 runs is a pretty well accepted adjustment from CF to a corner. Actually, when I did it, I got a -23 run player on defense alone.

 

He explains a little deeper how he comes up with hims arm ratings a couple posts later.

 

In case you didnt realize, this is a blog and these were blog comments. They are quick and dirty estimates that aren't meant to be terribly exact, but when you are talking about a couple runs, you aren't going to make a material difference. This isn't a written article or anything. What should be gleaned from mgl's analysis is that A) Griffey's defense is terrible and much worse than what people perceive it to be and B) aging has caught up to him fairly significantly making him much worse than he actually is vs what people think when they hear the name Griffey. They think prime griffey, but hes way way past it.

[Sammy Sofa]

Only if he comes with his grotesquely swollen jaw.

[Dallas Green]

Forget Griffey.

If the Reds are trading outfielders, go for Dunn.

 

Move Fukudome to CF, Soriano to RF, Dunn if LF. I likey!

 

That would be the worst defensive outfield baseball has ever seen!

[NCCubFan]

Pass on Griffey. He's guaranteed for at least one trip to the DL per year. Pie can handle center; he's been better the last few chances he's had.

[Jehrico]

I've posted it before, but heres mgl's rant about how griffey is the worst full time player in baseball and possibly worst in the history of the game.

 

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_2008_pre_season/#158

That's a freaking horrible analysis. I'm a saber guy myself, but this guys application is as dorked up as I think you can get. There's no way Griffey is one of the worst full time starters in the history of the game. I'm by no means a Griffey fan myself, I don't want him on our team. But I don't even have to think hard and I can come up with several examples that I don't think anyone would argue are worse than him. Many of them former Cubs. Neifi, Jeff Blauser anyone?

 

Thats a pretty hardcore saber retort you just provided there...

 

And Griffey just scored one in the mgl column in what will most definitely go down as the great saber Griffey debate between Jericho and the #1b guy in all of statistical baseball analysis.

Let's see here...

"Convert those CF numbers to RF (add +8 or +10 maybe?), take a weighted average, age adjust, and then regress to a 39 yo player with a terrible speed score, and I guarantee you are going to get a number a low worse than -15."

Yeah, that sounds real scientific. Add on top of that, no disclosure of how he calculates "throws," coupled with arbitrarily giving him -5, I don't see any real analysis. I see abuse of metrics. Add the common sense test on top of that. You can't seriously assert that Griffey is one of the worst regular players in the history of the game. He did, but he didn't offer up any comparisons whatsoever. He must not have done any research whatsoever before making that statement. Just think about that one, who all could be considered as worse players of all time? I wouldn't even consider Griffey for worse regular player of the 2000s, much less all time.

 

First addressing the "worst player of all time"...I take that as a hyperbole. You are absolutely correct he didn't test this against anyone else (or more accurately say "projects to be" the worst player of all time), but I can put my critical reading hat on too and come to the conclusion that it is meant as a hyperbole.

 

And as for the defensive metric, yeah, thats pretty scientific. Does he spell it out exactly how he calculates all of those adjustments? No. Does he really need to? No. He doesn't need to prove his credentials to the people reading the comments of his own blog? If you don't think mgl can calc weighted averages, age adjust, and regress, then just ignore anything anyone posts about him. He uses UZR, weights based on how recent the experience was (I think 5,4,3,2). 8-10 runs is a pretty well accepted adjustment from CF to a corner. Actually, when I did it, I got a -23 run player on defense alone.

 

He explains a little deeper how he comes up with hims arm ratings a couple posts later.

 

In case you didnt realize, this is a blog and these were blog comments. They are quick and dirty estimates that aren't meant to be terribly exact, but when you are talking about a couple runs, you aren't going to make a material difference. This isn't a written article or anything. What should be gleaned from mgl's analysis is that A) Griffey's defense is terrible and much worse than what people perceive it to be and B) aging has caught up to him fairly significantly making him much worse than he actually is vs what people think when they hear the name Griffey. They think prime griffey, but hes way way past it.

Does he need to prove his credentials on his own blog? No, but if you don't, you're subject to getting analyzed on other boards. You don't see me going on his blog and criticizing him for not laying out how he comes up with all of that.

 

And as far as the Griffey comment goes, yeah, we all know he sucks defensively, and yeah, I got it that it's a blog post. Don't get pissed at me just because I challenged the statement that you posted over here that Griffey may be one of the worst players of all time. There's was no solid analysis on to support that, nor was there any historical comparisons at all. Nothing. It doesn't pass the common sense test. When you make statements like that you're stepping well beyond hyperbole. Yet you repeated those sentiments on this board opening them up to analysis and criticism. If you hadn't mentioned, this is a message board, and if you make (or repeat) far-out statements like that without having the numbers to back it up, you're subject to being called on it. Griffey is really bad defensively, I got it. We're not talking about someone whose overall game is so horrible that he's amongst the worst to ever play the game though, not even close.

[nilodnayr]

I think one thing you are failing to realize is that Griffey also projects as a below average hitter for his position by a decent amount. He has the unique distinction of being a bad hitter, fielder, and baserunner and its not even qustioned whether or not he should be benched. Hell, he has a better chance of being selected to an AS game. I'm not going to say he's the only player ever to be in that category in the history of baseball, but that's pretty rare. Edited May 7, 2008 by nilodnayr

[Vanilla Ice]

Forget Griffey.

If the Reds are trading outfielders, go for Dunn.

 

Move Fukudome to CF, Soriano to RF, Dunn if LF. I likey!

 

That would be the worst defensive outfield baseball has ever seen!

Fukudome and Soriano would be above average IMO

[biittner77]

Only if he comes with his grotesquely swollen jaw.

 

awesome Simpson's reference.

 

Wiggum "Says here you're from New York. I heard a guy got murdered in New York"

 

Steve Sax "Lot's of people get murdered in New York"

 

Wiggum "You don't know when to shut up, do you Sax?"

[davearm2]

Forget Griffey.

If the Reds are trading outfielders, go for Dunn.

 

Move Fukudome to CF, Soriano to RF, Dunn if LF. I likey!

 

That would be the worst defensive outfield baseball has ever seen!

Fukudome and Soriano would be above average IMO

Heading into the season anyway many folks viewed Soriano - Pie - Fukudome as one of the top few defensive OFs in baseball -- perhaps the best even.

 

So it's pretty interesting that you could take one guy out and shuffle the other two around, and come out with the worst defensive outfield baseball has ever seen.

[mdwilla]

I think one thing you are failing to realize is that Griffey also projects as a below average hitter for his position by a decent amount. He has the unique distinction of being a bad hitter, fielder, and baserunner and its not even a qustion that he should be benched. He'll, he has a better chance of being selected to an AS game. I'm not going to say he's the only player ever to be in that category, but that's pretty rare.

 

Do the Reds have two players on there Team named Griffey because I'm not seeing it on the roster. Griffey is no longer the fielder he once was but still is above average in the field. He can't handle center but still has an above average arm and owns ten gold gloves. Stole six bags last year and only got once and is still a smart baserunner. His 07 numbers would look pretty good in left field. Saying one of the best players in the game over the last 20 years should be benched because he's off to a slow start is a joke.

[nilodnayr]

I think one thing you are failing to realize is that Griffey also projects as a below average hitter for his position by a decent amount. He has the unique distinction of being a bad hitter, fielder, and baserunner and its not even a qustion that he should be benched. He'll, he has a better chance of being selected to an AS game. I'm not going to say he's the only player ever to be in that category, but that's pretty rare.

 

Do the Reds have two players on there Team named Griffey because I'm not seeing it on the roster. Griffey is no longer the fielder he once was but still is above average in the field. He can't handle center but still has an above average arm and owns ten gold gloves. Stole six bags last year and only got once and is still a smart baserunner. His 07 numbers would look pretty good in left field. Saying one of the best players in the game over the last 20 years should be benched because he's off to a slow start is a joke.

 

It has nothing to do with a slow start, it has to do with how he is projected to play based on his performance the last 4 years and age curve. What are you using to back up your assertation that he is "still above average in the field"? The fact that he has 10 gold gloves? An award we all know is complete BS and that he hasn't won in 9 years? Are you serious? I'll believe UZR, you believe whatever you want. From 2003-2007 (the experience used for projections) he stole 7 bases in 9 attempts, thats below average speed. Additionally, moving from first to third is analyzed, but I don't have that data specifically. He might be a smart baserunner, but hes definitely a slow baserunner.

 

Again you use the last 20 years to back up your arguement. It doesn't matter how good Griffey was 10 years ago, it matters how good Griffey is going to be in the future. People just cant seem to grasp that concept.

[Amazing_Grace]

I would hope if we're going to the trouble of moving Fukudome to CF then we'd be acquiring someone younger and better than Griffey. Ten years ago, Griffey was one of the best players in baseball. Now he's overpaid and decidedly average. It wouldn't be the worst move the Cubs have ever made, but I just don't see it making a huge difference since the offensive upgrade would be marginal over the Johnson/Pie platoon and that would be offset by a substantial downgrade in defense. Only way I'd do this is if there were no other choice at the trade deadline and we didn't have to give up much to get him.

[mfische5]

I got a better idea. What about Bonds? He is a free agent and is a better hitter the Griffey. He also would probably be very cheap and looking for a one year contract. Yes his defense is poor, but Fukudome and Soriano are more then fast enough to play CF and cheat over a little. And his bat more then makes up for any defensive shortcomings.

 

I HATE the idea of Bonds in a cubs uniform, and I think the man did do some things that he should be punished for. However, in terms of playing baseball, he didn't do anything different then many other players.

 

I probably should duck now...

[rchap24]

sign me up for Griffey if we don't have to give up a ridiculous amount to get him. He'd look wonderful at the five spot moving Fuku to two. Is there any talk of him actually being traded or was it just a topic?

[CubsGM]

Soriano for Dunn.

Make it happen Jim

[nilodnayr]

I got a better idea. What about Bonds? He is a free agent and is a better hitter the Griffey. He also would probably be very cheap and looking for a one year contract. Yes his defense is poor, but Fukudome and Soriano are more then fast enough to play CF and cheat over a little. And his bat more then makes up for any defensive shortcomings.

 

I HATE the idea of Bonds in a cubs uniform, and I think the man did do some things that he should be punished for. However, in terms of playing baseball, he didn't do anything different then many other players.

 

I probably should duck now...

 

I think you'll find a lot more Bonds lovers than haters on here because theres a decent chunk of us that actually want the cubs to improve. Bonds is exactly what the Cubs are looking for, middle of the order lefty and hes freely available (ie dont have to give up anything for him). I hate collusion.

[reds44]

I'll ask the same thing I did in the Dunn thread, what would you want to give up to get Griffey?

 

Griffey, I would think, comes cheaper than Dunner does.

[reds44]

Soriano for Dunn.

Make it happen Jim

Hey the other Jim (Bowden that is), offered that deal to Krivsky 8 times.

 

I'm not kidding, and yes I know your post was sarcasm.

[nilodnayr]

Soriano for Dunn.

Make it happen Jim

Hey the other Jim (Bowden that is), offered that deal to Krivsky 8 times.

 

I'm not kidding, and yes I know your post was sarcasm.

 

Too bad Krivsky isnt stll there. Obviously he had some interest in Sori.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

As to what I'd givep for Griffey? Not much. Maybe Ascanio and a lower level prospect. Dunn, I'd be willing to pay much more.