Lou Pinella, What the hell are you doing?

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm of the mind that the more at-bats Cedeno gets, the worse his numbers will be, so I don't have a terrible problem with this. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not real comfortable in Ronny yet.

 

Fair enough. But is Fontenot really that much better a option? I'm stunned by those projections.

[TruffleShuffle]

I am baffled as to why Fontenot remians the goto guy first off the bench in situations where Cedeno would be infinitely better offensively and defensively.

 

PECOTA projects fontenot to be more productive than cedeno offensively.

 

Really? Damn.

 

Are you sure it wasn't actually just Bill Pecota going bonkers?

 

Well, still, it flies in the face of Lou's "playing the hot hand" BS. Outside of like 2 games, Cedeno easily has had the much "hotter hand."

 

no. BP's site is down right now but i can look at their 2008 projections in the book.

 

Ronny Cedeno: 278/326/422, .251 EqA, 13.3 VORP

Fontenot: 282/357/431, .267 EqA, 15.4 VORP

 

i know it might come as a shock since he's a small white guy, but fontenot has always been able to hit (291/362/437/799 minor league numbers). plus he doesn't have a disastrous full season under his belt at the major league level, so it's no surprise that PECOTA favors him.

 

and lost in the forest of cedeno love/fontenot hate is the fact that fontenot has been productive when he's played this year (276/391/448)

[Careless]

 

I'd probably give Lou a C to C+ at this point. Marmol's odd usage is my biggest fault to him.

The big problem with Lou is that he's had 2 really big, really stupid mistakes that he's been repeating for weeks. It's like a B student in math class who can't multiply by 2 and 5.

[dew1679666265]

I'm of the mind that the more at-bats Cedeno gets, the worse his numbers will be, so I don't have a terrible problem with this. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not real comfortable in Ronny yet.

 

Fair enough. But is Fontenot really that much better a option? I'm stunned by those projections.

 

Probably not, which means I don't have a strong feeling on which should be used. Both will likely put up worse numbers the more chances they get, so it doesn't matter that much which one is used.

[Sammy Sofa]

I am baffled as to why Fontenot remians the goto guy first off the bench in situations where Cedeno would be infinitely better offensively and defensively.

 

PECOTA projects fontenot to be more productive than cedeno offensively.

 

Really? Damn.

 

Are you sure it wasn't actually just Bill Pecota going bonkers?

 

Well, still, it flies in the face of Lou's "playing the hot hand" BS. Outside of like 2 games, Cedeno easily has had the much "hotter hand."

 

no. BP's site is down right now but i can look at their 2008 projections in the book.

 

Ronny Cedeno: 278/326/422, .251 EqA, 13.3 VORP

Fontenot: 282/357/431, .267 EqA, 15.4 VORP

 

i know it might come as a shock since he's a small white guy, but fontenot has always been able to hit (291/362/437/799 minor league numbers). plus he doesn't have a disastrous full season under his belt at the major league level, so it's no surprise that PECOTA favors him.

 

and lost in the forest of cedeno love/fontenot hate is the fact that fontenot has been productive when he's played this year (276/391/448)

 

Wow.

 

I really guess I just assumed he had played like and was projected as another Theriot.

[dew1679666265]

 

I'd probably give Lou a C to C+ at this point. Marmol's odd usage is my biggest fault to him.

The big problem with Lou is that he's had 2 really big, really stupid mistakes that he's been repeating for weeks. It's like a B student in math class who can't multiply by 2 and 5.

 

Which mistakes are you referring to specifically? So many people have varying opinions on what he's doing wrong, so I'm honestly not sure which ones you're referring to.

 

Really, though, on general philosophy, I'd probably give Lou a B+ to A-. Thus, the C range is taking into account mistakes he's made.

[bukie]

Fontenot has always been a solid hitter in the minors, and even when he started really slow this year, I was confident he'd catch fire eventually (and he did, raised his average a good 100 points in a week).

 

I have no problems with Fontenot getting time. I would like to see Cedeno get more time, though, too. Theriot and DeRosa can be rotated in and out a bit more than they have been, to assure none of those 4 are wearing down by September (as Theriot and DeRosa largely did last year).

[CubColtPacer]

I am baffled as to why Fontenot remians the goto guy first off the bench in situations where Cedeno would be infinitely better offensively and defensively.

 

PECOTA projects fontenot to be more productive than cedeno offensively.

 

Really? Damn.

 

Are you sure it wasn't actually just Bill Pecota going bonkers?

 

Well, still, it flies in the face of Lou's "playing the hot hand" BS. Outside of like 2 games, Cedeno easily has had the much "hotter hand."

 

Since April 27th:

 

Fontenot: .444/.643/.722

Cedeno: .250/.368/.312

 

Fontenot has had 24 plate appearances this month, and 9 of those went for walks.

 

Both have been red hot at times, and ice cold at others. Fontenot went 2 for 15 in the middle of April, which really drug down his numbers. Cedeno is 1 for his last 11 right now, with no walks during that stretch.

 

Their overall number of at-bats is also so low that the difference between them so far this season is not all that much. In fact, it's pretty much two singles. It certainly hasn't been enough to say that one has been a lot hotter than the other.

Edited May 12, 2008 by CubColtPacer

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, I stand corrected. I was unfairly assuming Fontenot sucked.

[TruffleShuffle]

I have no problems with Fontenot getting time. I would like to see Cedeno get more time, though, too. Theriot and DeRosa can be rotated in and out a bit more than they have been, to assure none of those 4 are wearing down by September (as Theriot and DeRosa largely did last year).

 

i agree with this. the cubs have good depth at middle infield and a good overall offense; there's no reason to grind down guys like theriot, derosa and soto; give them each more time off than they've been getting through the first month and a half of the season. same with the bullpen, which actually has pretty good depth when howry and wuertz come around. no need to abuse marmol. lou has to start thinking big picture rather than managing every game like it's a must-win.

[Careless]

 

I'd probably give Lou a C to C+ at this point. Marmol's odd usage is my biggest fault to him.

The big problem with Lou is that he's had 2 really big, really stupid mistakes that he's been repeating for weeks. It's like a B student in math class who can't multiply by 2 and 5.

 

Which mistakes are you referring to specifically? So many people have varying opinions on what he's doing wrong, so I'm honestly not sure which ones you're referring to.

 

Really, though, on general philosophy, I'd probably give Lou a B+ to A-. Thus, the C range is taking into account mistakes he's made.

Marmol usage and Pie benchiness

[Rob]

I have problems with Lou's handling of all of the following: (in no particular order)

 

1.) Marmol's workload

 

2.) Pie getting benched against righties in favor of Johnson

 

3.) Ryan Theriot getting handed a starting job he didn't deserve, performing worse than our option with a higher ceiling, and still keeping said job.

 

4.) The copious amounts of hit-and-run attempts, often in extremely poor situations.

 

5.) Ryan Theriot being given the green light.

 

6.) Rich Hill's short leash... not exactly the smartest idea to give the guy with confidence problems something extra to freak about.

 

7.) Marshall as a LOOGY.

 

8.) Chad Fox getting high leverage situations.

 

9.) The complete disappearance of Michael Wuertz.

 

10.) Marmol being saved for late in ballgames, and then pitching regardless of the score.

 

I also have a minor issue with Soto's workload. It'd be nice for his knees to be feeling good come September. I realize he's been a beast, but he's got more PA than anybody but Kurt Suzuki and Russell Martin (with Oakland having played a couple more games than us, and Martin playing 3B for a handful of games)

[sneakypower]

lou has to start thinking big picture rather than managing every game like it's a must-win.

he only does that during the playoffs

[Amazing_Grace]

117 ABs obviously isn't a huge amount, but it's a damn lot more than most young players got during Baker's tenure.

 

untrue.

 

Let's be realistic, nobody is going to agree with every call the manager makes. We can always find fault in hindsight. The only things that I really don't like about Lou are that he overuses a few guys in his bullpen, especially using the best players in non critical situations, and the fact that he runs too much in general but especially in front of Lee and Ramirez. All in all, I'm satisfied with Lou, a lot more than I thought I would be when he was hired. You don't reverse a several year trend of being among the worst teams in baseball in OBP and patience to one of the best by complete accident. To those who are wondering if they'd rather have Baker back, I invite you to follow the Reds for a couple weeks and see what you think.

 

i agree with most of this. lou does a relatively good job as far as overall philosophy, but his in-game decisions are bad. he also needs to remember that the season is 162 games long, and you want your guys to not be completely out of gas in october.

 

As to the first part, I was thinking of Bobby Hill, Hee Seop Choi, Brendan Harris, Jason Dubois, etc. that either never got a decent shot or were benched permanently for no apparent reason. As I think about it more, you're probably right. He went with CPat long after it was apparent to most everyone that he would never be much more than your run of the mill swings at everything but doesn't hit enough HR to justify it hitter. Cedeno did get most of 2006 despite Neifi being on the roster. Marshall and Hill got good shots then also. 2006 is hard to judge though, since he was a lame duck manager and Hendry basically gave him no choice when he started trading everyone for beans at the deadline.

 

As for the rest, I think his in-game decisions do look pretty bad when you consider their affect over an entire season. I wonder why Theriot isn't getting more days off after wearing down badly late last season. The bullpen usage is completely bewildering to me, but in my mind it's not that much worse than Baker using the veteran with the 6.00 ERA in every big game.

[Jehrico]

Lou deserves some credit for PHing Soriano and Ward the way he did. Like someone in the game thread said, Melvin was dumb for not throwing Soriano 4 slider/fastballs away and watch him hack instead of IBBing him.

 

Meh personally I dont know why Lou deserves credit for this move. Melvin was the one who made the move look good by walking him. Personally I wouldve went with Cedeno, who has shown patience this year, that way if Melvin pitches to him, he has a better chance to put the ball in play. Or if he IBB's him, then you still have one of your best hitters still available, instead of being wasted to get IBB. Melvin should have pitched to Soriano and see if he would get himself out like he so often does.

 

Lou makes a good call and he still gets critiqued. Cub fans are never happy.

Just because a call works out doesn't make it a good call. If Fox struck out the first two batters he faced, it was still would have been a bad call. Fans tend to judge calls based on the results, but managers should be judged based on the situation, not how it turns out.

[RynoRules]

I love how people who criticize Lou always gets told we do it in hindsight, although those of us complaining do it as the move is being made. Plain and simple the Johnson/Pie situation is undefensible. Johnson has been worse than Pie against rightys, yet he continues to start.

 

Always? I think many of us are critical of Lou, just not hypercritical.

[RynoRules]

Lou deserves some credit for PHing Soriano and Ward the way he did. Like someone in the game thread said, Melvin was dumb for not throwing Soriano 4 slider/fastballs away and watch him hack instead of IBBing him.

 

Meh personally I dont know why Lou deserves credit for this move. Melvin was the one who made the move look good by walking him. Personally I wouldve went with Cedeno, who has shown patience this year, that way if Melvin pitches to him, he has a better chance to put the ball in play. Or if he IBB's him, then you still have one of your best hitters still available, instead of being wasted to get IBB. Melvin should have pitched to Soriano and see if he would get himself out like he so often does.

 

Lou makes a good call and he still gets critiqued. Cub fans are never happy.

Just because a call works out doesn't make it a good call. If Fox struck out the first two batters he faced, it was still would have been a bad call. Fans tend to judge calls based on the results, but managers should be judged based on the situation, not how it turns out.

 

I don't like the fact that Fox is on the roster (nevermind in the game), but you're saying that if Lou brought in Wuertz in that spot and he walked-in two runs it would have been ok b/c it was the better move based on the situation? And since when don't results matter? If the Cubs win 90-plus games and go to the WS, I don't give two-hoots how they do it.

[Soul]

Lou deserves some credit for PHing Soriano and Ward the way he did. Like someone in the game thread said, Melvin was dumb for not throwing Soriano 4 slider/fastballs away and watch him hack instead of IBBing him.

 

Meh personally I dont know why Lou deserves credit for this move. Melvin was the one who made the move look good by walking him. Personally I wouldve went with Cedeno, who has shown patience this year, that way if Melvin pitches to him, he has a better chance to put the ball in play. Or if he IBB's him, then you still have one of your best hitters still available, instead of being wasted to get IBB. Melvin should have pitched to Soriano and see if he would get himself out like he so often does.

 

Lou makes a good call and he still gets critiqued. Cub fans are never happy.

Just because a call works out doesn't make it a good call. If Fox struck out the first two batters he faced, it was still would have been a bad call. Fans tend to judge calls based on the results, but managers should be judged based on the situation, not how it turns out.

 

I think that's true, but I do find it to be a bit of a double standard that comparatively few people give Lou credit for the good moves he makes, but entire threads are dedicated to the bad moves.

[mul21]

I have problems with Lou's handling of all of the following: (in no particular order)

 

1.) Marmol's workload

 

2.) Pie getting benched against righties in favor of Johnson

 

3.) Ryan Theriot getting handed a starting job he didn't deserve, performing worse than our option with a higher ceiling, and still keeping said job.

 

4.) The copious amounts of hit-and-run attempts, often in extremely poor situations.

 

5.) Ryan Theriot being given the green light.

 

6.) Rich Hill's short leash... not exactly the smartest idea to give the guy with confidence problems something extra to freak about.

 

7.) Marshall as a LOOGY.

 

8.) Chad Fox getting high leverage situations.

 

9.) The complete disappearance of Michael Wuertz.

 

10.) Marmol being saved for late in ballgames, and then pitching regardless of the score.

 

I also have a minor issue with Soto's workload. It'd be nice for his knees to be feeling good come September. I realize he's been a beast, but he's got more PA than anybody but Kurt Suzuki and Russell Martin (with Oakland having played a couple more games than us, and Martin playing 3B for a handful of games)

 

The only one of these I really take any umbrage with is #3. Yes, Theriot was handed the job, but he has certainly earned keeping his spot thus far. Lou hasn't hesitated in most cases to yank a guy if he's not getting the job done. I would certainly like to see Cedeno getting more ABs, but I can't really complain about Theriot so far except for the stupid SB attempts.

 

Oh, and #8 as well. But only because Fox shouldn't be getting any appearances because he shouldn't be on the roster.

[MustangMike]

I have problems with Lou's handling of all of the following: (in no particular order)

 

9.) The complete disappearance of Michael Wuertz.

 

 

I also have a minor issue with Soto's workload. It'd be nice for his knees to be feeling good come September. I realize he's been a beast, but he's got more PA than anybody but Kurt Suzuki and Russell Martin (with Oakland having played a couple more games than us, and Martin playing 3B for a handful of games)

 

The only one of these I really take any umbrage with is #3. Yes, Theriot was handed the job, but he has certainly earned keeping his spot thus far. Lou hasn't hesitated in most cases to yank a guy if he's not getting the job done. I would certainly like to see Cedeno getting more ABs, but I can't really complain about Theriot so far except for the stupid SB attempts.

 

Oh, and #8 as well. But only because Fox shouldn't be getting any appearances because he shouldn't be on the roster.

 

What has Wuertz done to keep his job this year, walk everyone in sight? I don't mind Wuertz disapearing, I don't like Marshall getting the shaft, espeically since he's done everything he's asked to be done of him. I think Hill will be back, they are tying to prove a point to him...I think.

[Jehrico]

Lou deserves some credit for PHing Soriano and Ward the way he did. Like someone in the game thread said, Melvin was dumb for not throwing Soriano 4 slider/fastballs away and watch him hack instead of IBBing him.

 

Meh personally I dont know why Lou deserves credit for this move. Melvin was the one who made the move look good by walking him. Personally I wouldve went with Cedeno, who has shown patience this year, that way if Melvin pitches to him, he has a better chance to put the ball in play. Or if he IBB's him, then you still have one of your best hitters still available, instead of being wasted to get IBB. Melvin should have pitched to Soriano and see if he would get himself out like he so often does.

 

Lou makes a good call and he still gets critiqued. Cub fans are never happy.

Just because a call works out doesn't make it a good call. If Fox struck out the first two batters he faced, it was still would have been a bad call. Fans tend to judge calls based on the results, but managers should be judged based on the situation, not how it turns out.

 

I think that's true, but I do find it to be a bit of a double standard that comparatively few people give Lou credit for the good moves he makes, but entire threads are dedicated to the bad moves.

Very true, but that's a fact of life of anyone in the public eye. It's not fair, but hey, for his salary, I'd let everyone put me under that magnifying glass too.

[brinoch]

What has Wuertz done to keep his job this year, walk everyone in sight? I don't mind Wuertz disapearing, I don't like Marshall getting the shaft, espeically since he's done everything he's asked to be done of him. I think Hill will be back, they are tying to prove a point to him...I think.

 

Wuertz has 6 walks in 17 innings.

Marshall has 7 walks in 8.2 innings.

[javy knows my name]

What has Wuertz done to keep his job this year, walk everyone in sight? I don't mind Wuertz disapearing, I don't like Marshall getting the shaft, espeically since he's done everything he's asked to be done of him. I think Hill will be back, they are tying to prove a point to him...I think.

 

Wuertz has 6 walks in 17 innings.

Marshall has 7 walks in 8.2 innings.

He watches the games, dude.

[dew1679666265]

 

I'd probably give Lou a C to C+ at this point. Marmol's odd usage is my biggest fault to him.

The big problem with Lou is that he's had 2 really big, really stupid mistakes that he's been repeating for weeks. It's like a B student in math class who can't multiply by 2 and 5.

 

Which mistakes are you referring to specifically? So many people have varying opinions on what he's doing wrong, so I'm honestly not sure which ones you're referring to.

 

Really, though, on general philosophy, I'd probably give Lou a B+ to A-. Thus, the C range is taking into account mistakes he's made.

Marmol usage and Pie benchiness

 

That's what I'm saying. I don't think he's overusing Marmol too much (yet), but I don't like when he's using him. I also don't think he's committing unspeakable crimes against Pie (though signing Edmonds is pretty close), but I think he should get more at-bats.

 

So yes, both of those mistakes factor into me lowering his overall grade.

[Careless]

 

I'd probably give Lou a C to C+ at this point. Marmol's odd usage is my biggest fault to him.

The big problem with Lou is that he's had 2 really big, really stupid mistakes that he's been repeating for weeks. It's like a B student in math class who can't multiply by 2 and 5.

 

Which mistakes are you referring to specifically? So many people have varying opinions on what he's doing wrong, so I'm honestly not sure which ones you're referring to.

 

Really, though, on general philosophy, I'd probably give Lou a B+ to A-. Thus, the C range is taking into account mistakes he's made.

Marmol usage and Pie benchiness

 

That's what I'm saying. I don't think he's overusing Marmol too much (yet), but I don't like when he's using him. I also don't think he's committing unspeakable crimes against Pie (though signing Edmonds is pretty close), but I think he should get more at-bats.

 

So yes, both of those mistakes factor into me lowering his overall grade.

If you take out the stupid uses of Marmol. he's down to something like a 90 inning pace. High, but not absurd.

 

With Pie, it's pure stupidity through and through. Johnson isn't just not hitting righties now, he's not hitting anything at all. There's no way Pie would be worse than Johnson has been in the last month