Justin Upton, now there's a prospect.

[sharkfan50]

Justin Upton, 20 year old OF for the Arizona Diamondbacks. Hitting .368 on the year and hit his 4th HR tonight on this young season. Not only is he putting up numbers, you can see clear as day that here's a kid who "gets" it, who is learning from ab to ab, the most important thing to me, when looking at a prospect.

 

I live in AZ and watch Upton on a daily basis. you can't even compare him and Felix together, because Felix is an overhyped prospect who won't amount to much in this league and it's very plain to see by many who aren't making excuses for him. Sure he's put up decent numbers in the Minors, but those players who have success at the Minor League level but fail miserably in the big leagues are a dime a dozen.

 

Felix' main problem, is his swing is too long to catch up to a MLB fastball and now he's all messed up. He doesn't need more time here, he needs to be sent down to AAA. I know I know, "he's already proved he can hit Minor League hitting...yada ydaa yada. I don't care anymore. He doesn't belong at this level. It's painfully obvious to see, if you just take off the rose colored spectacles. He needs to completely reinvent himself. Maybe more of a slap hitter because he'll never make it at this level with that swing and terrible plate discipline. Yeah there's been hitters who have have successful careers with longish swings, but only because they were smart hitters and made pitchers throw strikes. I don't think Felix is a smart player.

 

They need to send him down and bring up Murton. Platoon Murton and Johnson in RF against L/R and start DOme in CF against Lefties. That will happen soon enough.

[VanceJergins]

Yah, I know, right? If you can't judge a player after 22 sporadic AB's, when are you going to cut the cord?

[MADD_DOG_31]

We should probably just release Soriano while we are at it....he is struggling after a week and a half and has a long swing

[BCVM22]

Fukudome's hitless in his last two games. The guy clearly doesn't get it. What a wasted signing. They need to release him and start Murt in RF. Ramirez is also hitting only .250, the non-hustling bum.

[JimSorgi]

Justin Upton is better than Felix Pie?!?!?! OMG! NO WAY!!!!

[chuckywang]

Don't Diamondback fans have anything better to do? Please tell us something we don't already know.

[Outshined_One]

Justin Upton was the freaking #1 overall pick in one of the most stacked drafts in recent memory. I'd rather hope he would be better than Felix Pie at this point, considering he was drafted over the following players:

 

Alex Gordon

Jeff Clement

Ryan Zimmerman

Ryan Braun

Troy Tulowitzki

Cameron Maybin

Jay Bruce

Jacoby Ellsbury

Matt Garza

Colby Rasmus

 

And that was just in the first round!

 

What the heck is the point of this post? If you want to rip Pie, just come straight out and say it. Don't feed us this whole line about Justin Upton when there was no way in hell the Cubs were going to get him in the draft or through a trade.

[BCVM22]

Don't Diamondback fans have anything better to do?

 

Too busy not selling out playoff games.

[sharkfan50]

I'll respond to everyone in one post.

1. I'm a Cub fan, hence the "sharkfan50" username, genius (Yeah I know he don's the number 28 with the Smokies, but when I made up this account it was ST and he was 50 on the ST roster). But I'm in the minority of Cub fans and that I can admit when a prospect I once raved about, won't amount to much and I can let go. To think of the players we could've gotten back for Felix at one time. What a waste.

2. I totally love the sarcasm, seriously, I do. So NSBB.

3. Pie has had more than 22 ab's.

4. Yeah, obviously Upton is one of if not the best prospects in the entire game and it isn't fair to compare Felix to him, but my point is, Pie's learning curve is corey pattersonesque and I just don't see him making the proper adjustments, where as Upton, you can see him making adjustments from ab to ab. Like a true prospect and one with a very bright future in this game.

5. I'm just trying to be nice and to ask Cub fans to stop making excuses for Felix because they've been hyping him up for the last 4 years and it's healthy to to admit that Felix will never be the player they've envisioned and hoped for.

6. If you keep making excuses for Felix, you're only hurting yourself and this team with those unhealthy thoughts. He is hurting this team right now as he still is not ready. Right now we have a better player in Johnson and someone who needs to play 5 games a week until the Cubs call up Murton.

7. I seriously wanted Felix to be a part of this team and to contribute to this team, but I've accepted that he isn't ready and he most likely never will be.But for sure, he is not ready right now. I care farrrr more about keeping this train rolling and making it to the Playoffs and the World Series than I am about the "maturity" of an individual player who is hurting the team at the same time.

8. The point of this thread, was to point out that Felix Pie has shown me squat and Cub fans need to start accepting that he isn't the prospect or future All Star that we once thought or think and that he actually will not be anything but an Angel Pagan type player and will be a journeyman. So let's stop making excuses for him and when he get's sent back down, to embrace it. Because it'll be the right thing for this team and to not cry" he never got a fair chance bwahahaaha. Lou piniella is so mean and loves vets etrc etc etc." which will be the cry here and already has been.

9. The Cubs haven't lost a game in which Reed has started. Yet there's still Cub fans whining that Felix should start and get more ab's. Good thing the majority of Cub fans (not just on this board) aren't Managing the Cubs and Lou, who wants nothing more to do than win and cares about the overall success of this years team, is the Manager.

Edited April 12, 2008 by sharkfan50

[Sosa21MVP]

Where are all these alleged excuses for Pie being made? I see quite a few people being very tough on him here. :scratch:

[sharkfan50]

They litter Cub blogs from coast to coast not just this one.

 

I know I'm coming across very harshly, but believe it or not, I want what's best for Felix and riding pine with the Cubs is not what's best for him. I still haven't completely given up, but what I have conceded, is that he is not ready. He can't build up his confidence riding pine and looking absolutely lost at the plate at this level.

 

The Cubs need to call up Murton and send Felix down to AAA and get ab's and get his confidence back up and maybe raise his trade value as well. He is the weakest link right now on this club and you'd be a fool to think he doesn't know this.

[RedFlash]

I still maintain Felix Pie will be a dang good CF in his own right. The problem is...the Cubs are prolly not the best place for Pie. The Cubs are in a "win now" mode, and Felix is prolly still atleast another yr or two away from giving the Cubs (or any team) major offensive contributions.

 

But I could leave with Pie's "offense" in CF, if Cedeno or some kind of upgrade at SS would happen. Because having Pie and Theriot in the lineup, essentially puts the Cubs in a disadvantage. And seeing as Pie is a much better defender in CF, then Theriot is at SS, means the upgrade has to come at SS.

[sharkfan50]

I still maintain Felix Pie will be a dang good CF in his own right. The problem is...the Cubs are prolly not the best place for Pie. The Cubs are in a "win now" mode, and Felix is prolly still atleast another yr or two away from giving the Cubs (or any team) major offensive contributions.

 

But I could leave with Pie's "offense" in CF, if Cedeno or some kind of upgrade at SS would happen. Because having Pie and Theriot in the lineup, essentially puts the Cubs in a disadvantage. And seeing as Pie is a much better defender in CF, then Theriot is at SS, means the upgrade has to come at SS.

 

Right now with Pie and Theriot in the same lineup, it is a really bad lineup as Theriot essentially hits 2nd then. With Johnson in the lineup, he can hit 2nd and push Theriot down to 8th. Problem is with your logic IMO however, is that the Cubs have a replacement at CF and not at SS. No trades for a SS will be coming anytime soon either.

 

That's the harsh reality of a team that is made up with a bunch of vets and a big market team: The focus is on winning and not "developing". Right now, that's what Felix is in the process of and that is damn hard with the expectations that surround this team. Some "prospects" can handle it, but I don't think Felix can, sadly. He needs to be sent down to AAA.

[BCVM22]

Some "prospects" can handle it, but I don't think Felix can, sadly. He needs to be sent down to AAA.

 

You keep saying this like it's going to happen. Do you know Felix personally? It sounds like you know him so well, to say that he can't handle it. We do have Sean Gallagher's father hanging around here, one never can be sure.

 

...so really, what are you trying to argue here? That Pie struggled while being jerked around between Chicago and Iowa last season? That he hasn't gotten his feet under him in all of 22 ABs this season (and yes, 22 is the number of at bats he's had in 2008) including not having played a full game in a week, now?

[Bote McBoteface]

I'll respond to everyone in one post.

1. I'm a Cub fan, hence the "sharkfan50" username, genius (Yeah I know he don's the number 28 with the Smokies, but when I made up this account it was ST and he was 50 on the ST roster). But I'm in the minority of Cub fans and that I can admit when a prospect I once raved about, won't amount to much and I can let go. To think of the players we could've gotten back for Felix at one time. What a waste.

2. I totally love the sarcasm, seriously, I do. So NSBB.

3. Pie has had more than 22 ab's.

4. Yeah, obviously Upton is one of if not the best prospects in the entire game and it isn't fair to compare Felix to him, but my point is, Pie's learning curve is corey pattersonesque and I just don't see him making the proper adjustments, where as Upton, you can see him making adjustments from ab to ab. Like a true prospect and one with a very bright future in this game.

5. I'm just trying to be nice and to ask Cub fans to stop making excuses for Felix because they've been hyping him up for the last 4 years and it's healthy to to admit that Felix will never be the player they've envisioned and hoped for.

6. If you keep making excuses for Felix, you're only hurting yourself and this team with those unhealthy thoughts. He is hurting this team right now as he still is not ready. Right now we have a better player in Johnson and someone who needs to play 5 games a week until the Cubs call up Murton.

7. I seriously wanted Felix to be a part of this team and to contribute to this team, but I've accepted that he isn't ready and he most likely never will be.But for sure, he is not ready right now. I care farrrr more about keeping this train rolling and making it to the Playoffs and the World Series than I am about the "maturity" of an individual player who is hurting the team at the same time.

8. The point of this thread, was to point out that Felix Pie has shown me squat and Cub fans need to start accepting that he isn't the prospect or future All Star that we once thought or think and that he actually will not be anything but an Angel Pagan type player and will be a journeyman. So let's stop making excuses for him and when he get's sent back down, to embrace it. Because it'll be the right thing for this team and to not cry" he never got a fair chance bwahahaaha. Lou piniella is so mean and loves vets etrc etc etc." which will be the cry here and already has been.

9. The Cubs haven't lost a game in which Reed has started. Yet there's still Cub fans whining that Felix should start and get more ab's. Good thing the majority of Cub fans (not just on this board) aren't Managing the Cubs and Lou, who wants nothing more to do than win and cares about the overall success of this years team, is the Manager.

 

 

Ah, thank goodness. I was waiting for that.

 

I was sitting here, like.."he's not seriously gonna bash Felix Pie without comparing him to Corey Patterson, is he?"

 

Luckily you came through in the clutch (UNLIKE FELX CUZ HE SUKS LOL!)

[TruffleShuffle]

5. I'm just trying to be nice and to ask Cub fans to stop making excuses for Felix because they've been hyping him up for the last 4 years and it's healthy to to admit that Felix will never be the player they've envisioned and hoped for.

 

oh okay, since you asked nicely i will admit that the 23 plate appearances he's had this year are more than enough to tell us, without question, that he is never going to be a quality major league baseball player. thank you for helping me to get the truth out there.

[RedFlash]

 

Right now with Pie and Theriot in the same lineup, it is a really bad lineup as Theriot essentially hits 2nd then. With Johnson in the lineup, he can hit 2nd and push Theriot down to 8th. Problem is with your logic IMO however, is that the Cubs have a replacement at CF and not at SS. No trades for a SS will be coming anytime soon either.

 

That's the harsh reality of a team that is made up with a bunch of vets and a big market team: The focus is on winning and not "developing". Right now, that's what Felix is in the process of and that is damn hard with the expectations that surround this team. Some "prospects" can handle it, but I don't think Felix can, sadly. He needs to be sent down to AAA.

 

The problem with your logic is that Reed Johnson is strictly a short-term option. Big market teams NEEDS cheap players to produce. I love Reed Johnson, he's a gamer and a nice platoon talent, but the fact is....the Cubs really need Felix Pie to succeed. And to sit him, and give him sporadic at-bats does serveral things: 1. It convinces the fan base, that the organization has no clue on how to development players. 2: Is lowers Pie's confidence. 3: It forces the Cubs to have to consider going outside of the org, and use resources to acquire a lefty hitting OF to platoon with Reed.

 

This is the time of the yr, that Felix Pie NEEDS THE ATBATS. There isn't much pressure in April, as it will be in May, June, July, and August. Let him work out the mistakes NOW at the major league level. Sending Pie down to AAA does nothing to help anybody. The bottom line is this: if Pie is as talented as the Cubs claim, then that talent will rise to the occasion, if not, then move on. And sproadic at-bats, proves nothing.

 

Not to mention you claim the Cubs have a replacement in CF, but not at SS. Hello, did you look over the roster? The Cubs have a better SS option on the roster in Ronny Cedeno. Heck, even Fontenot is a better short-term option at SS then Theriot. The Cubs offense and defense would be better with Fontenot or Cedeno and Pie, over Theriot and Johnson.

 

Again, LET Felix Pie play. Giving up on young players, because they don't hit like Pujols or Upton or Braun (and let me remind you, two of those players played college ball, and Felix Pie didn't pick up a ball till 14 yrs old) once they reach the majors, is ridiculous. Sometimes it takes hitters a little bit longer adust to major league pitching, then pitchers to major league hitting. Again, let Pie play, let him prove one way or another, as to if he is the star baseball player, or the next Corey Patterson. Sitting him down, and or sending him down to AAA, will always leave doubt.

[TruffleShuffle]

the Cubs really need Felix Pie to succeed. And to sit him, and give him sporadic at-bats does serveral things: 1. It convinces the fan base, that the organization has no clue on how to development players.

 

oh, i think that much of the fan base is already fully convinced of this, regardless of how the cubs handle felix pie.

 

I still maintain Felix Pie will be a dang good CF in his own right. The problem is...the Cubs are prolly not the best place for Pie. The Cubs are in a "win now" mode, and Felix is prolly still atleast another yr or two away from giving the Cubs (or any team) major offensive contributions.

 

my problem with this type of thinking is that a lot of really good organizations are in "win now" mode and still manage to break players into the big leagues. dustin pedroia sucked ass for a few weeks at the beginning of last season, but he turned it around and won the AL RoY. Robinson Cano was lousy to start his career. the red sox and yankees are pretty much in perpetual "win now" mode.

 

see, smart organizations understand that it's worth sacrificing a small handful of wins if at the end of the day, you manufacture a good player who will contribute to your team's success for several years. if the cubs play felix pie all year and he is a couple of wins worse than, say, reed johnson, i'm not going to be pissed if we miss the playoffs by a game. if the cubs help pie reach his PECOTA projections (roughly .290/.350/.490) then he'll be one of the better CF in the league and give you excellent defense at a relatively cheap price for the next few years. unfortunately, the mindset of piniella seems to be that they have to do everything possible to win every single game, and if reed johnson gives the cubs a better chance to win today's game than felix pie, then reed johnson is starting that game. regardless of whether pie would be successful or not, this type mindset - favoring short-term gains over long-term development - is a foolish one, and the cubs need to rid themselves of it.

[Illini Iceman]

So when Upton put up a line of .221 BA / .283 OBP /.364 SLG in 140 AB's last season shouldn't that mean by this logic that the D-Backs should have given up on him and sent him back to AAA to reinvent himself since he never was going to make it?

[Jon]

So when Upton put up a line of .221 BA / .283 OBP /.364 SLG in 140 AB's last season shouldn't that mean by this logic that the D-Backs should have given up on him and sent him back to AAA to reinvent himself since he never was going to make it?

No. Last year, you could see inside Upton's head and the "getting it" part of his brain was quite active.

[Derwood]

reason #9 makes my brain hurt

[NCCubFan]

Poll time.

[rawaction]

So when Upton put up a line of .221 BA / .283 OBP /.364 SLG in 140 AB's last season shouldn't that mean by this logic that the D-Backs should have given up on him and sent him back to AAA to reinvent himself since he never was going to make it?

 

Good point. Upton hit .221/.283/.364 in 140 ABs last year.

Pie hit .215/.271/.333 in 177 last year.

 

Those numbers aren't that much different. Their walk rates were identical (Felix 14 BBs, Upton 11). Pie had a slightly better strikeout ratio. The only major difference is Felix is 2 years older. Also, Upton's power advantage make it easier to absorb the Ks if you want to get picky.

[BigbadB]

Hall of Fame 2b Ryne Sandberg played a full season at the age of 22 and put up pretty generic numbers. At age 23, he put up this: .261 .316 .351

 

After 1000 major league at bats, there was absolutely zero inclination that this kid would do anything at the major league level. The Cubs should have cut their losses, eh?

 

The following year, he did this: .314 .367 .520

 

Sure, comparing Pie to Ryne Sandberg is about as ridiculous as comparing Pie to Upton. The point is that some players take longer to mature than others.

 

But, since we are just going to cut guys loose at such a ripe young age, we really should have cut Geovany Soto loose at age 22 because he was clearly not "getting it".

 

I have yet to understand why Lou has given Pie as much bench time as he has at this point, but it makes me very nervous that the Cubs will trade depth in the farm for someone like Coco Crisp, a guy Felix Pie very well could eventually (and with steady playing time) be a much better player than.

[Guest]

So when Upton put up a line of .221 BA / .283 OBP /.364 SLG in 140 AB's last season shouldn't that mean by this logic that the D-Backs should have given up on him and sent him back to AAA to reinvent himself since he never was going to make it?

 

I was going to post that when I saw this thread but figured someone beat me to it.