More lineup changes coming?

[Beer Kaese]

I don't know, this lineup stuff is getting old.

 

The Cubs starters (Soriano, Pie, Fukudome, Ramirez, Theriot, DeRosa, Lee and Soto) are not ideal for lineup construction.

 

Me, I start with the #3 hitter. I want OBP and SLG. That limits the choices to Lee and maybe Fukudome. Then I look at the cleanup guy. I'm looking for SLG with OBP. If Lee bats 3rd then Ramirez bats 4th. If Fukudome bats 3rd then I could see Lee and Ramirez as interchangable 4th and 5th in the lineup. I could also see Fukudome leading off, he's supposed to be an OBP guy who runs well.

 

I thought about this the other day: Fukudome, DeRosa, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Soto, Pie, Theriot. I'd like to see that for a while and see what happens.

[Yestheydo]

DeRosa

Fukudome

Lee

Soriano

Ramirez

Pie

Soto

Theriot

 

Three most patient hitters at the top, followed by the two most powerful. After that, who cares, Ramirez has never had any protection before anyway.

[RedFlash]

My question is....if Michael Young can play SS, then why can't DeRosa play SS?

 

I mean, he is an athlete, and the only reasons why he didn't play much SS, was because he was blocked by Rafael Furcal in ATL, and Michael Young in Texas. I pretty sure, DeRosa glove at SS would be on par with Theriot, with the bat being significantly better. I don't know why Piniella would toss the DeRos to SS idea away so nochalantly.

[Guest]

If Soriano does get moved down in the order, I don't want to see DLee get moved down as well (which has apparently been discussed if Soriano moves to third). Lee should be batting no lower than third in the order. If Lou wants to move him to second, that's fine, but he shouldn't be hitting fourth or lower. His OBP is too good to move down in the order.

 

If Soriano bats leadoff I'd prefer to have DeRosa bat second followed by DLee, Ramirez and Fukudome (though the last two could be switched). If Lou bats Theriot leadoff and moves Soriano down to 3, 4, or 5, then Fukodome would be the best fit for the 2-spot.

[TruffleShuffle]

for something that doesn't make a big difference in terms of run production, people sure do care about who's batting where.

[javy knows my name]

"Actually, if I didn't have a left-handed hitting center fielder [Pie] in the eighth hole, the 1 hole would be a nice position for Fukudome.''

 

GOD DAMMIT LOU. When will the love affair with Theriot end? I, for one, am actively rooting for Theriot to totally suck from the start. It might take a while, but eventually Theriot will get moved down in the line-up and we might even be shopping for a SS at the trade deadline or (GASP) give DeRosa a chance. It's almost as if Lou is more interested in sparing Theriot's feelings than DeRosa's and that's just ridiculous. We have to just hope the front office finds out what we already know before it really hurts our team.

[sneakypower]

"Actually, if I didn't have a left-handed hitting center fielder [Pie] in the eighth hole, the 1 hole would be a nice position for Fukudome.''

 

GOD dag nabbit LOU. When will the love affair with Theriot end? I, for one, am actively rooting for Theriot to totally suck from the start. It might take a while, but eventually Theriot will get moved down in the line-up and we might even be shopping for a SS at the trade deadline or (GASP) give DeRosa a chance. It's almost as if Lou is more interested in sparing Theriot's feelings than DeRosa's and that's just ridiculous. We have to just hope the front office finds out what we already know before it really hurts our team.

that's strange. i'm hoping he'll be good, along with the rest of our team. i thought that was the point of the whole thing.

[BigbadB]

"Actually, if I didn't have a left-handed hitting center fielder [Pie] in the eighth hole, the 1 hole would be a nice position for Fukudome.''

 

GOD dag nabbit LOU. When will the love affair with Theriot end? I, for one, am actively rooting for Theriot to totally suck from the start. It might take a while, but eventually Theriot will get moved down in the line-up and we might even be shopping for a SS at the trade deadline or (GASP) give DeRosa a chance. It's almost as if Lou is more interested in sparing Theriot's feelings than DeRosa's and that's just ridiculous. We have to just hope the front office finds out what we already know before it really hurts our team.

 

I certainly won't be rooting against Theriot. At this point, all I can really hope for is Cubs management was right and Theriot proves to be much more than I imagine. I can't help but think there must be more to this guy than I see for Cubs management to completely ignore the glaring problem I envision at SS.

[BigbadB]

for something that doesn't make a big difference in terms of run production, people sure do care about who's batting where.

 

If you had "good" bats all the way through the line up, I'd agree with you. However, I'm not sure how you can argue that there wouldn't be a big difference in production if Theriot is getting anywhere from 60-80 more plate appearances over the course of the season than Lee or Ramirez.

 

If the argument was whether Theriot batted 7th or 8th, then I would agree that line up placement wouldn't make that big of a deal. However, we saw just how horribly it affected Derrek Lee's production in 2005 when Neifi Perez and Corey Patterson were getting the bulk of the at bats at the top of the order.

 

Bottom line. Poor OBP guys with little power belong at the bottom of the order. Period. As long as you start out building your line up with those guys at the bottom of the order, then I would agree that it doesn't matter all that much where everyone else bats.

[Derwood]

for something that doesn't make a big difference in terms of run production, people sure do care about who's batting where.

 

it matters in terms of giving more plate appearances to crappy players and less to good players

[rawaction]

Lou sleeps on it.

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080322&content_id=2451207&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

 

On Friday, Piniella said he was considering moving Kosuke Fukudome into the No. 2 spot from fifth, which would result in a 3-4-5 combination of Alfonso Soriano, Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez. But the result would be all right-handed hitters from the third through seventh spots, and Piniella decided he didn't want that, either.

 

"I thought about it last night, and I think right now, the way we're situated, I think Fukudome offers the best protection for Ramirez," Piniella said Saturday. "I know that probably the two-hole is more suitable for [Fukudome], but right now, the way we're put together, I just feel Ramirez out of the four-hole will have more protection with Fukudome hitting behind him."

[rawaction]

Lou's primary reason (in public) for moving Soriano down in the lineup seems to be that "his legs aren't 100%". Does that mean when his legs are 100%, he'll go back to hitting leadoff?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Please please please please don't hit Pie 8th.

[rawaction]

Please please please please don't hit Pie 8th.

 

I'm thinking the only way that doesn't happen is if Theriot is horrible or Pie is gone. Even if the Cubs bring in Roberts, my guess is they just move everyone down a spot (assuming a Theriot/Soriano/Lee/ARam/Fukudome 1-5).

[17 Seconds]

As someone already mentioned, it looks like we're going to have to get Roberts just to save Lou from himself. How can someone possibly consider a 1/2 of Theriot and Soriano? Ay dios mio.

[WilcoFan]

I'd be happy with Theriot in the leadoff spot if meets Bill James' projections for him (.348 OBP).

[17 Seconds]

I'd be happy with Theriot in the leadoff spot if meets Bill James' projections for him (.348 OBP).

 

I woudln't. He won't meet those projections anyways.

[WilcoFan]

I'd be happy with Theriot in the leadoff spot if meets Bill James' projections for him (.348 OBP).

 

I woudln't. He won't meet those projections anyways.

 

 

So are you just one of those people who roots for players you don't like to fail, even if they're on your favorite team?

 

 

Look, I don't like the fact that Ryan Theriot is the starting shortstop. There is nothing I can do about that, though, so I would be exceptionally happy if he performed well.

 

Its one thing to be realistic about player performance. Its a completely different thing to actually root against that player. Some did that with Jacque Jones last year, and now SOME are doing it with Theriot. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the decision to start him or bat him leadoff, you need to understand that there's nothing you can do to change it, so you might as well root for him to meet those projections, instead of taking your frustrations with management out on a player who has nothing to do with the decision to put him in the lineup each day.

[17 Seconds]

I'd be happy with Theriot in the leadoff spot if meets Bill James' projections for him (.348 OBP).

 

I woudln't. He won't meet those projections anyways.

 

 

So are you just one of those people who roots for players you don't like to fail, even if they're on your favorite team?

 

 

Look, I don't like the fact that Ryan Theriot is the starting shortstop. There is nothing I can do about that, though, so I would be exceptionally happy if he performed well.

 

Its one thing to be realistic about player performance. Its a completely different thing to actually root against that player. Some did that with Jacque Jones last year, and now SOME are doing it with Theriot. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the decision to start him or bat him leadoff, you need to understand that there's nothing you can do to change it, so you might as well root for him to meet those projections, instead of taking your frustrations with management out on a player who has nothing to do with the decision to put him in the lineup each day.

 

 

What makes you think I'm rooting for him to fail? Of course I'm not. I would be absolutely thrilled if Theriot surprised everyone and had a great year, I just don't see it as likely. I like Theriot. I like the way he plays and all that stuff, I just don't think he's a good hitter. I want the team to win, period. And stop acting like I'm going to games and yelling "you suck" to Theriot or something like that, because I'm not. I'm expressing my opinion on an internet message board about what I think would give us the best chance to win. I don't blame Theriot, because he is doing everything he can. I blame Jim Hendry, since he is the one responsible for building the team, not Theriot. Not once have I said that I hate Theriot, and not once have I unfairly criticized him. I don't have any ill feeling towards Theriot at all. I just think he's not a very good hitter. Ernie Banks couldn't hit at a major league level right now, but that doesn't mean I dislike him. My sister can't hit at a big league level right now, but that doesn't mean I dislike her. I never said I hope Theriot doesn't meet Bill James projections, I said I don't think it will happen. There's a pretty obvious difference between those 2 things.

 

That being said, is it so much to ask to get some guys with good OBP at the top of the order? Am I wrong for wanting guys to actually get on base in front of Lee and Ramirez? Is that such a radical idea?

[WilcoFan]

Whatever you have to tell yourself, man...

[bhogg]

Just curious, but where did Theriot hit in the minors?

 

I think, with Pie, it's terrible to hit him so far out of what he's done his entire minor league career. He's a free swinger and he'll get nothing but junk thrown at him in the 8 spot.

Seems like Theriot would be good there because he can put the ball in play.

 

Just an idea --- what's keeping Ramirez from hitting 3rd? Teams typically put their best hitter in that spot, and one could easily argue that Aram is the best hitter on the team. He's been very consistent since 04. It probably wouldn't change anything run wise, but would a 3-4-5 of Aram - Lee - Soriano be worth a shot?

 

 

I'm like most of you -- I'll cheer on Theriot and hope he sets the world on fire. I do take comfort in knowing that Lou made needed changes last year when certain players were not performing. If Theriot does not perform, I would imagine that Lou will not sit back and let it happen without some kind of change in the lineup.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I agree that Theriot is a better fit in the eighth spot. He has a good eye; his problem lies in that while he recognizes pitches well, he can't do much with those pitches that are strikes. Pitchers aren't afraid to challenge him at all. He would probably do well at 8.

 

Pie would do better in the 7th spot.

[BCVM22]

Just an idea --- what's keeping Ramirez from hitting 3rd? Teams typically put their best hitter in that spot, and one could easily argue that Aram is the best hitter on the team. He's been very consistent since 04. It probably wouldn't change anything run wise, but would a 3-4-5 of Aram - Lee - Soriano be worth a shot?

 

I like Lee in front of Ramirez better because while they're both great hitters in all departments, Lee's more apt to take a walk and is the better OBP guy, and has better functional speed than Ramirez. Example, if Lee walks and Ramirez doubles, Lee is a better bet to score from first; not quite so much the other way around.

[biittner77]

I was thinking about the lineup Dusty Baker would make with the available players. It would look something like this:

 

Pie- Rule #1 CF leads off

Theriot- middle infielder who can scrap the leadoff guy to 2nd

Soriano- he's our stud and if you're bass fishing in the adirondaks you don't use live bait

Lee

Fukudome- got to balance the lineup

Ramirez

Derosa

Soto- catchers bat 8th

 

Then I don't feel so bad about the projected lineups that Piniella has in mind.

[17 Seconds]

Whatever you have to tell yourself, man...

 

Well that was an intelligent and well thought out response. Show me one instance where I've said anything personal about Theriot or implied anything bad about him other than the fact that I don't think he's a good hitter. SHow me please.

 

I can't stand how anybody who is unhappy with the shortstop situation is branded as a "Theriot hater". It makes me sick, actually.