Dear Bruce Miles (and everyone else): What Next?

[CubColtPacer]

The main question about 2003 is whether Baker would have ridden Wood + Prior so hard that year if we weren't in the race.

 

And, of course, whether not piling up those innings at that point would have helped prevent them from being destroyed for years afterwards.

That's one thing on my mind. The other is of course that had the Cubs not made the run Hendry may have gotten rid of Baker sooner. In addition, he might not have wasted so much money on mediocre relievers and a washed up Greg Maddux. I don't think getting Lee would have been effected one way or the other. He fell into Hendry's lap like manna from heaven. The rest of what was posted is specious logic at best.

 

Maybe one season earlier, but a manager with the track record of Dusty Baker wasn't likely to be fired after just two seasons no matter what the records of the team were. And since the Cubs would either have the young pitchers healthy, in which case they'd be mediocre, or have the injuries excuse to fall back on Dusty would stay away from the blame for a while.

 

Maddux was a good pitcher for the money for the Cubs in both 04 and 05. Maybe not the unbelievable pitcher that people were expecting, but an above average pitcher who throws over 210 innings both years is and was worth quite a bit of money. He was maybe slightly overpaid, but if so it wasn't much at all.

 

As for the relievers, that could be true. At the same time, Hendry was overpaying for relievers when the Cubs were very good, and he continued overpaying for relievers after 2005 when they weren't so good. That seems more of a GM flaw in Hendry's early GM tenure rather than a direct result of the 2003 run.

 

I would definitely agree that the Ramirez trade was a direct result of the 03 playoff run. The Lee trade is a lot more murky, but most people at the time thought it was the same sort of "win now" move as the Maddux move was.

 

The best argument against the 03 run was the health of the Cubs young pitchers. To keep them healthy though, one would have to hope that the Cubs never became good during Baker's 3 years and that Wood would have to hold up during that time.

 

The 03 playoff run was one of the best times to be a Cubs fan there ever was. To want to reverse that for me, there would have to be good evidence that the Cubs would be a better team if that hadn't happened. I don't see that evidence. Before 03, the Cubs were a middle of the pack payroll team with a lot of organizational promise that would have mostly gone unfulfilled because most of the prospects flamed out. Without 03, the Cubs may have never turned into the high payroll team they are today and the benefits that come with that.

[mdwilla]

Trading 2003 so we could keep an overhyped Willis? Thats pretty weak. Blaming Baker for Wood and Priors Injury looks a lot weaker after we find out that Mr. perfect mechanics had serious injury problems the Cubs med staff wasn;t finding. How about Woods High school coach and Riggleman and Company for trotting out Wood against the Braves in the playoffs?

 

A lot of peolpe on this board where upset we traded Choi for Lee!

Juan Cruz was also the next Pedro Martinez.

[nilodnayr]

Boise's 2001 Rotation

 

Willis (19)-------2.98 ERA, 7.30 H/9, 0.10 HR/9, 1.83 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Mitre (20)-------3.07 ERA, 8.41 H/9, 0.20 HR/9, 1.78 BB/9, 7.02 K/9

Guzman (19)----2.23 ERA, 7.98 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.23 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Wynegar (20)---2.92 ERA, 9.76 H/9, 0.89 HR/9, 2.41 BB/9, 7.99 K/9

Piggy (18)------3.00 ERA, 8.08 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.54 BB/9, 9.58 K/9

 

What would the world be like if the Marlins would have taken Piggy? I can't blame the cubs for giving up Dontrelle. That was back in the day when they had a ridiculous stable of young starters and he was the one with a funky delivery that advanced hitting could figure out.

[CoolHandLuke]

It seems fairly impressive to have 4/5 of a short season class A team make the majors.

[rawaction]

Boise's 2001 Rotation

 

Willis (19)-------2.98 ERA, 7.30 H/9, 0.10 HR/9, 1.83 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Mitre (20)-------3.07 ERA, 8.41 H/9, 0.20 HR/9, 1.78 BB/9, 7.02 K/9

Guzman (19)----2.23 ERA, 7.98 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.23 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Wynegar (20)---2.92 ERA, 9.76 H/9, 0.89 HR/9, 2.41 BB/9, 7.99 K/9

Piggy (18)------3.00 ERA, 8.08 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.54 BB/9, 9.58 K/9

 

What would the world be like if the Marlins would have taken Piggy? I can't blame the cubs for giving up Dontrelle. That was back in the day when they had a ridiculous stable of young starters and he was the one with a funky delivery that advanced hitting could figure out.

 

Heh. At that point, I liked Guzman much more than anyone else on that list. I liked Mitre more also. I thought Trelle had the 2nd most talent, but was least likely to reach it.

[Guest]

Boise's 2001 Rotation

 

Willis (19)-------2.98 ERA, 7.30 H/9, 0.10 HR/9, 1.83 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Mitre (20)-------3.07 ERA, 8.41 H/9, 0.20 HR/9, 1.78 BB/9, 7.02 K/9

Guzman (19)----2.23 ERA, 7.98 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.23 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Wynegar (20)---2.92 ERA, 9.76 H/9, 0.89 HR/9, 2.41 BB/9, 7.99 K/9

Piggy (18)------3.00 ERA, 8.08 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.54 BB/9, 9.58 K/9

 

It seems fairly impressive to have 4/5 of a short season class A team make the majors.

 

Compare to the 2007 Boise rotation:

 

Huseby (19) - 3.39 ERA, 8.28 H/9, 0.95 HR/9, 4.21 BB/9, 7.19 K/9

Sasser (21) - 4.59 ERA, 8.91 H/9, 0.56 HR/9, 3.34 BB/9, 7.10 K/9

Ashwood (21) - 3.28 ERA, 9.05 H/9, 0.31 HR/9, 3.28 BB/9, 7.65 K/9

Cabrera (18) - 5.40 ERA, 9.62 H/9, 0.94 HR/9, 4.23 BB/9, 7.75 K/9

Hempy (23) - 4.70 ERA, 7.92 H/9, 1.17 HR/9, 3.23 BB/9, 9.68 K/9

[NYF]

The main question about 2003 is whether Baker would have ridden Wood + Prior so hard that year if we weren't in the race.

 

And, of course, whether not piling up those innings at that point would have helped prevent them from being destroyed for years afterwards.

That's one thing on my mind. The other is of course that had the Cubs not made the run Hendry may have gotten rid of Baker sooner. In addition, he might not have wasted so much money on mediocre relievers and a washed up Greg Maddux. I don't think getting Lee would have been effected one way or the other. He fell into Hendry's lap like manna from heaven. The rest of what was posted is specious logic at best.

 

Maybe one season earlier, but a manager with the track record of Dusty Baker wasn't likely to be fired after just two seasons no matter what the records of the team were. And since the Cubs would either have the young pitchers healthy, in which case they'd be mediocre, or have the injuries excuse to fall back on Dusty would stay away from the blame for a while.

 

Maddux was a good pitcher for the money for the Cubs in both 04 and 05. Maybe not the unbelievable pitcher that people were expecting, but an above average pitcher who throws over 210 innings both years is and was worth quite a bit of money. He was maybe slightly overpaid, but if so it wasn't much at all.

 

As for the relievers, that could be true. At the same time, Hendry was overpaying for relievers when the Cubs were very good, and he continued overpaying for relievers after 2005 when they weren't so good. That seems more of a GM flaw in Hendry's early GM tenure rather than a direct result of the 2003 run.

 

I would definitely agree that the Ramirez trade was a direct result of the 03 playoff run. The Lee trade is a lot more murky, but most people at the time thought it was the same sort of "win now" move as the Maddux move was.

 

The best argument against the 03 run was the health of the Cubs young pitchers. To keep them healthy though, one would have to hope that the Cubs never became good during Baker's 3 years and that Wood would have to hold up during that time.

 

The 03 playoff run was one of the best times to be a Cubs fan there ever was. To want to reverse that for me, there would have to be good evidence that the Cubs would be a better team if that hadn't happened. I don't see that evidence. Before 03, the Cubs were a middle of the pack payroll team with a lot of organizational promise that would have mostly gone unfulfilled because most of the prospects flamed out. Without 03, the Cubs may have never turned into the high payroll team they are today and the benefits that come with that.

 

sorry, but i never understood the Maddux love. at the time Maddux was brought back, (after being dumped by the Braves, who understood he was not worth the money) pitching was not a problem. Pudge was begging to be a Cub for the same money. how'd that decision work out? with or without '03, the Cubs are what you see today, namely the perception of what Hendry sees as a marketable baseball team. the '03 team had one effect: Cub fans tasted victory, and want more. you give a glowing analysis of Hendry, but forget the many, many shortcomings of this manager. '03 is gone. deal with it. win me something, then we'll wax poetic...

[Post Count Padder]

Boise's 2001 Rotation

 

Willis (19)-------2.98 ERA, 7.30 H/9, 0.10 HR/9, 1.83 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Mitre (20)-------3.07 ERA, 8.41 H/9, 0.20 HR/9, 1.78 BB/9, 7.02 K/9

Guzman (19)----2.23 ERA, 7.98 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.23 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Wynegar (20)---2.92 ERA, 9.76 H/9, 0.89 HR/9, 2.41 BB/9, 7.99 K/9

Piggy (18)------3.00 ERA, 8.08 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.54 BB/9, 9.58 K/9

 

It seems fairly impressive to have 4/5 of a short season class A team make the majors.

 

Compare to the 2007 Boise rotation:

 

Huseby (19) - 3.39 ERA, 8.28 H/9, 0.95 HR/9, 4.21 BB/9, 7.19 K/9

Sasser (21) - 4.59 ERA, 8.91 H/9, 0.56 HR/9, 3.34 BB/9, 7.10 K/9

Ashwood (21) - 3.28 ERA, 9.05 H/9, 0.31 HR/9, 3.28 BB/9, 7.65 K/9

Cabrera (18) - 5.40 ERA, 9.62 H/9, 0.94 HR/9, 4.23 BB/9, 7.75 K/9

Hempy (23) - 4.70 ERA, 7.92 H/9, 1.17 HR/9, 3.23 BB/9, 9.68 K/9

Ouch.

[SouthSideRyan]

As far as Pudge goes, looking at it in its most simple form for '04 Maddux + Barrett was likely more valuable than Pudge + Cruz(as a starter)/Mitre would have been.

[cheapseats]

Blaming Baker for Wood and Priors Injury looks a lot weaker after we find out that Mr. perfect mechanics had serious injury problems the Cubs med staff wasn;t finding.

 

Most of the damage indicates a slow wearing rather than any significant trauma, which puts the blame more on Dusty Baker than anyone else.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/04/26/under.theknife/index.html

[badnews]

Some people are apparently married to the lie.

 

This is like a Mets fans saying trading Scott Kazmir was good because otherwise they would've never gotten rid of Jim Duquette. Bad logic and bad causality used to justify bad trades.

[Yeti]

and 3 pages later Bruce is still silent...a cat in the bag he cant let out yet?

[Butterscup1679666578]

and 3 pages later Bruce is still silent...a cat in the bag he cant let out yet?

 

I remember a week or so ago he said he was dealing with family things.

[Yeti]

and 3 pages later Bruce is still silent...a cat in the bag he cant let out yet?

 

I remember a week or so ago he said he was dealing with family things.

yeah i remember that too, i guess i was just hopein

[Tyrant]

and 3 pages later Bruce is still silent...a cat in the bag he cant let out yet?

 

I remember a week or so ago he said he was dealing with family things.

yeah i remember that too, i guess i was just hopein

 

Or maybe he just doesn't respond to every single request for his presence here.

[Wheelimus]

and 3 pages later Bruce is still silent...a cat in the bag he cant let out yet?

 

I remember a week or so ago he said he was dealing with family things.

yeah i remember that too, i guess i was just hopein

 

Or maybe he just doesn't respond to every single request for his presence here.

 

But we activated the Bruce signal and everything...

[Tracer Bullet]

and 3 pages later Bruce is still silent...a cat in the bag he cant let out yet?

 

I remember a week or so ago he said he was dealing with family things.

yeah i remember that too, i guess i was just hopein

 

Or maybe he just doesn't respond to every single request for his presence here.

 

But we activated the Bruce signal and everything...

 

inappropriate use of the signal, imo.

[UMFan83]

and 3 pages later Bruce is still silent...a cat in the bag he cant let out yet?

 

I remember a week or so ago he said he was dealing with family things.

yeah i remember that too, i guess i was just hopein

 

Or maybe he just doesn't respond to every single request for his presence here.

 

But we activated the Bruce signal and everything...

 

inappropriate use of the signal, imo.

 

I'm going to go old school on this one and Blame CT

[Yeti]

 

I'm going to go old school on this one and Blame CT

 

 

sounds like a plan

[ctcf]

Curses

[BigbadB]

I'm going to go old school on this one and Blame CT

 

Nice work!

[Quakers]

Boise's 2001 Rotation

 

Willis (19)-------2.98 ERA, 7.30 H/9, 0.10 HR/9, 1.83 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Mitre (20)-------3.07 ERA, 8.41 H/9, 0.20 HR/9, 1.78 BB/9, 7.02 K/9

Guzman (19)----2.23 ERA, 7.98 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.23 BB/9, 7.40 K/9

Wynegar (20)---2.92 ERA, 9.76 H/9, 0.89 HR/9, 2.41 BB/9, 7.99 K/9

Piggy (18)------3.00 ERA, 8.08 H/9, 0.23 HR/9, 2.54 BB/9, 9.58 K/9

 

It seems fairly impressive to have 4/5 of a short season class A team make the majors.

 

Compare to the 2007 Boise rotation:

 

Huseby (19) - 3.39 ERA, 8.28 H/9, 0.95 HR/9, 4.21 BB/9, 7.19 K/9

Sasser (21) - 4.59 ERA, 8.91 H/9, 0.56 HR/9, 3.34 BB/9, 7.10 K/9

Ashwood (21) - 3.28 ERA, 9.05 H/9, 0.31 HR/9, 3.28 BB/9, 7.65 K/9

Cabrera (18) - 5.40 ERA, 9.62 H/9, 0.94 HR/9, 4.23 BB/9, 7.75 K/9

Hempy (23) - 4.70 ERA, 7.92 H/9, 1.17 HR/9, 3.23 BB/9, 9.68 K/9

Ouch.

 

2001 was a great year to watch Boise. A few years later Boise had a losing record (little offense and no pen), but Hill, Marshall, and Cherry were starting. I don't think anyone else from that season made the show.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I'm going to go old school on this one and Blame CT

 

Nice work!

 

Blaming CT is never wrong.