No Sammy on Mitchell Report....

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't understand where the perception comes from that Sammy is stupid. He was a very savvy self-promoter, and he was great at giving the press what they wanted. Eventually his ego screwed that up, but he played the press like a fiddle in 98 and for a few years after that.

 

It's more that these guys are pro athletes and likely not master, or even capable, criminals, and based on what this report is showing as to how a lot of these guys got their supplies, it surprises me that any of them would be able to do it seemingly as airtight as Sammy has done, if he was using. If he was, wouldn't he need to keep using whatever throughout the season at various points? I guess maybe he could just stock up in the DR if that was doable and then have enough for the season.

 

It's more common in the other thread than this one. People there are continually "surprised Sammy was smart enough" for a variety of things. I'm guessing it's because he's an ELL. A lot of people assume "stupid" when they hear an accent and broken English, which has never made sense to me. Especially when it's likely Sammy has a better mastery of two languages than the majority of people on this board.

 

completely, completely, completely agree. people hear that accent and think he must not be very smart.

 

I guess that must be where it comes from. Hard to argue the man has built himself into a multi-millionaire from scratch. Not that it takes a genius to do that, but I think it's pretty clear he knows what he's doing.

 

Hey -- he's smarter than some of these other guys who wrote checks in their own names, that's for sure.

 

I don't think it's necessarily the accent. You can point to actions like the corking and leaving the final game of 2004 early as being very, VERY poor decisions and, arguably, very dumb decisions.

 

That and the fact that Sammy actually speaks English rather well. He only chooses to go into the whole broken English thing when he is being confronted about things when broken English is a convenient diversion

 

Yeah, but I'd argue that's actually an example of him being "smart." Needing an interpretor when he had to go testify in DC? Brilliant.

[CubmanPi]

Yeah, but I'd argue that's actually an example of him being "smart." Needing an interpretor when he had to go testify in DC? Brilliant.

I'll argue that it's smart as well, though not necessarily because it was a convenient way for him to cover anything up. Despite the thick accent, Sammy does have a rather steady grasp of the English language on the day-to-day level. However, when dealing with something such as a beaurocratic investigation, I'm sure his actual true abilities were just not that great. With the amount of implied meaning and the fact that every individual word is so important, the intent could also have been to simply have a safety net to make sure he wasn't giving answers to a question that wasn't actually asked.

 

This is not a blind Sammy defense, I'm simply supposing that the need for an interpreter wasn't some brilliant form of manipulating his way out of the situation.

[Soul]

I don't think it's necessarily the accent. You can point to actions like the corking and leaving the final game of 2004 early as being very, VERY poor decisions and, arguably, very dumb decisions.

 

Even some really smart people make poor decisions. I wouldn't use a couple examples to call a person 'stupid' per se. Though I agree, those weren't real good decisions.

 

I also wouldn't try to argue that the man is a genius. He's somewhere in between. He's obviously got a massive ego -- I think that puts him in some bad positions.

[chopsx9]

corkie = willing to cheat

 

not being caught using steroids =/= innocent of all wrong doing

 

Lots of cheaters in the hall of fame. Spitball throwers, sign stealers...how about Ty Cobb's sharpened spikes?

 

willing to cheat =/= steroid user

 

i know. i just don't want people patting themselves on the backs about being "right" about sammy being innocent

 

I don't think anyone is patting themselves on the back. First of all this in no way means Sosa is innocent. He just wasn't named in THIS report.

 

It's just that some people seem to experience euphoric glee at the prospect of Sosa being named a steriod user when there is no more than circumstatial evidence. I would argue that there is at least as much, if not more, circumstatial evidence to suggest that the whole corking incident was, as Sosa claimed, just a mistake. (He just used the bat when fooling around in BP I believe was the story).

 

I don't know if he used stroids or not but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. And while I admit I won't be the first to come down on him if it does come out he used; I won't be far behind and I won't be pleased about it either.

[snoodmonger]

corkie = willing to cheat

 

not being caught using steroids =/= innocent of all wrong doing

 

Lots of cheaters in the hall of fame. Spitball throwers, sign stealers...how about Ty Cobb's sharpened spikes?

 

willing to cheat =/= steroid user

 

i know. i just don't want people patting themselves on the backs about being "right" about sammy being innocent

 

 

Well I feel much safer knowing you're on the case.

[Banedon]

corkie = willing to cheat

 

not being caught using steroids =/= innocent of all wrong doing

 

Lots of cheaters in the hall of fame. Spitball throwers, sign stealers...how about Ty Cobb's sharpened spikes?

 

willing to cheat =/= steroid user

 

i know. i just don't want people patting themselves on the backs about being "right" about sammy being innocent

 

I don't think anyone is patting themselves on the back. First of all this in no way means Sosa is innocent. He just wasn't named in THIS report.

 

It's just that some people seem to experience euphoric glee at the prospect of Sosa being named a steriod user when there is no more than circumstatial evidence. I would argue that there is at least as much, if not more, circumstatial evidence to suggest that the whole corking incident was, as Sosa claimed, just a mistake. (He just used the bat when fooling around in BP I believe was the story).

 

I don't know if he used stroids or not but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. And while I admit I won't be the first to come down on him if it does come out he used; I won't be far behind and I won't be pleased about it either.

 

Arguing he didn't use steroids and arguing the corking was a "mistake" are very different arguments. One is "did he do it" and the other is "why did he do it?" We all know Sosa corked his bat. We don't know he did steroids. There's much, much more reason to be suspicious of the corking.

[Wheelimus]

Remember kids. It's only cheating if you get caught. \:D/

 

I'm sure Sammy will take the lost 20 (or whatever it was) g's in the Dominican over being in that report anyday.

 

Did Sammy juice? Probably. Has Sammy gotten caught? Nope, and that should by all accounts leave him free and clear when it comes time to get in the Hall. And I just don't foresee anything coming back to bite Sammy in the butt. I'd imagine Dominican drug runners are probably a lot harder to get to talk than an American already facing 25 years in the slammer.

 

Not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is. Until you have proof all you have is suspicion. And you can't punish someone for suspicion.

[UMFan83]

Remember kids. It's only cheating if you get caught. \:D/

 

I'm sure Sammy will take the lost 20 (or whatever it was) g's in the Dominican over being in that report anyday.

 

Did Sammy juice? Probably. Has Sammy gotten caught? Nope, and that should by all accounts leave him free and clear when it comes time to get in the Hall. And I just don't foresee anything coming back to bite Sammy in the butt. I'd imagine Dominican drug runners are probably a lot harder to get to talk than an American already facing 25 years in the slammer.

 

Not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is. Until you have proof all you have is suspicion. And you can't punish someone for suspicion.

 

So your point brings up another point. If this is possible, how many Dominicans do you think may have done the same as Sammy (if true). Players like Ortiz and Manny could easily have done the same thing and gotten away with it.

[Banedon]

Remember kids. It's only cheating if you get caught. \:D/

 

I'm sure Sammy will take the lost 20 (or whatever it was) g's in the Dominican over being in that report anyday.

 

Did Sammy juice? Probably. Has Sammy gotten caught? Nope, and that should by all accounts leave him free and clear when it comes time to get in the Hall. And I just don't foresee anything coming back to bite Sammy in the butt. I'd imagine Dominican drug runners are probably a lot harder to get to talk than an American already facing 25 years in the slammer.

 

Not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is. Until you have proof all you have is suspicion. And you can't punish someone for suspicion.

 

So your point brings up another point. If this is possible, how many Dominicans do you think may have done the same as Sammy (if true). Players like Ortiz and Manny could easily have done the same thing and gotten away with it.

 

And how dumb does that make Miguel Tejada look?

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Yeah, but I'd argue that's actually an example of him being "smart." Needing an interpretor when he had to go testify in DC? Brilliant.

 

He'd have to be an idiot not to. Sammy is a decent conversational English speaker. He is not proficient enough to give testimony to the US Congress in English.

[snoodmonger]

 

Yeah, but I'd argue that's actually an example of him being "smart." Needing an interpretor when he had to go testify in DC? Brilliant.

 

He'd have to be an idiot not to. Sammy is a decent conversational English speaker. He is not proficient enough to give testimony to the US Congress in English.

 

I don't understand how people don't get this. It's baffling.

[erik316wttn]

corkie = willing to cheat

 

not being caught using steroids =/= innocent of all wrong doing

 

Lots of cheaters in the hall of fame. Spitball throwers, sign stealers...how about Ty Cobb's sharpened spikes?

 

willing to cheat =/= steroid user

 

This is a great point.

 

IF Sammy used (and that's a big "if), it was not illegal or outlawed by MLB the years he was most likely juicing. That does not condone it, but if he did it, it was technically "within the rules."

 

Compare this to someone like Gaylord Perry, who admitted to throwing an illegal pitch for most of his career, was caught on at least one occasion with a foriegn substance/object, and yet he seems to be revered. Would you be in favor of expelling him from the Hall of Fame seeing as it's a fact that he cheated, rather than keeping someone out based on speculation and public opinion? It makes no sense.

[Soul]

corkie = willing to cheat

 

not being caught using steroids =/= innocent of all wrong doing

 

Lots of cheaters in the hall of fame. Spitball throwers, sign stealers...how about Ty Cobb's sharpened spikes?

 

willing to cheat =/= steroid user

 

This is a great point.

 

IF Sammy used (and that's a big "if), it was not illegal or outlawed by MLB the years he was most likely juicing. That does not condone it, but if he did it, it was technically "within the rules."

 

Compare this to someone like Gaylord Perry, who admitted to throwing an illegal pitch for most of his career, was caught on at least one occasion with a foriegn substance/object, and yet he seems to be revered. Would you be in favor of expelling him from the Hall of Fame seeing as it's a fact that he cheated, rather than keeping someone out based on speculation and public opinion? It makes no sense.

 

They'll just keep him out, even though he's not in the Mitchell report and he hasn't been linked to the degree of the others.

 

Sammy's probably not going -- though I still think he should. Then again, I would probably still vote for Barry & Roger, much as I don't like them. And I get the feeling many voters will not.

[minnesotacubsfan]

They'll just keep him out, even though he's not in the Mitchell report and he hasn't been linked to the degree of the others.

 

Sammy's probably not going -- though I still think he should. Then again, I would probably still vote for Barry & Roger, much as I don't like them. And I get the feeling many voters will not.

 

I cannot imagine, at this point, Sammy not getting in. If voters can pass on him, they really should not be voting....

 

that all could change with evidence of steroids...

[XZero771679666304]

corkie = willing to cheat

 

not being caught using steroids =/= innocent of all wrong doing

 

Lots of cheaters in the hall of fame. Spitball throwers, sign stealers...how about Ty Cobb's sharpened spikes?

 

willing to cheat =/= steroid user

 

This is a great point.

 

IF Sammy used (and that's a big "if), it was not illegal or outlawed by MLB the years he was most likely juicing. That does not condone it, but if he did it, it was technically "within the rules."

 

Compare this to someone like Gaylord Perry, who admitted to throwing an illegal pitch for most of his career, was caught on at least one occasion with a foriegn substance/object, and yet he seems to be revered. Would you be in favor of expelling him from the Hall of Fame seeing as it's a fact that he cheated, rather than keeping someone out based on speculation and public opinion? It makes no sense.

 

 

Competitors in all arenas have always looked to gain an edge though whatever means are possible, but within reason (or not). The fact that others in previous eras did not juice is only due to the lack of juice.

 

It is difficult for me to revere or admire athletes from bygone days when I know full well that the scope of their cheating was only limited by the methods available to them.

 

The notion that they somehow had more integrity than players of the steroid era is just ridiculous, IMO.

[CuseCubFan69]

Remember kids. It's only cheating if you get caught. \:D/

 

I'm sure Sammy will take the lost 20 (or whatever it was) g's in the Dominican over being in that report anyday.

 

Did Sammy juice? Probably. Has Sammy gotten caught? Nope, and that should by all accounts leave him free and clear when it comes time to get in the Hall. And I just don't foresee anything coming back to bite Sammy in the butt. I'd imagine Dominican drug runners are probably a lot harder to get to talk than an American already facing 25 years in the slammer.

 

Not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is. Until you have proof all you have is suspicion. And you can't punish someone for suspicion.

 

So your point brings up another point. If this is possible, how many Dominicans do you think may have done the same as Sammy (if true). Players like Ortiz and Manny could easily have done the same thing and gotten away with it.

 

And how dumb does that make Miguel Tejada look?

 

That might just be an A's/Conseco thing. I think if a lot of players played for the Yanks or A's they would have had a bigger chance of being mentioned.

[Yanksfan1523]

Remember kids. It's only cheating if you get caught. \:D/

 

I'm sure Sammy will take the lost 20 (or whatever it was) g's in the Dominican over being in that report anyday.

 

Did Sammy juice? Probably. Has Sammy gotten caught? Nope, and that should by all accounts leave him free and clear when it comes time to get in the Hall. And I just don't foresee anything coming back to bite Sammy in the butt. I'd imagine Dominican drug runners are probably a lot harder to get to talk than an American already facing 25 years in the slammer.

 

Not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is. Until you have proof all you have is suspicion. And you can't punish someone for suspicion.

 

So your point brings up another point. If this is possible, how many Dominicans do you think may have done the same as Sammy (if true). Players like Ortiz and Manny could easily have done the same thing and gotten away with it.

 

And how dumb does that make Miguel Tejada look?

 

That might just be an A's/Conseco thing. I think if a lot of players played for the Yanks or A's they would have had a bigger chance of being mentioned.

 

 

Just curious as to why Yankeee players had a higher chance to be mentioned in your opinion.

[CuseCubFan69]

Remember kids. It's only cheating if you get caught. \:D/

 

I'm sure Sammy will take the lost 20 (or whatever it was) g's in the Dominican over being in that report anyday.

 

Did Sammy juice? Probably. Has Sammy gotten caught? Nope, and that should by all accounts leave him free and clear when it comes time to get in the Hall. And I just don't foresee anything coming back to bite Sammy in the butt. I'd imagine Dominican drug runners are probably a lot harder to get to talk than an American already facing 25 years in the slammer.

 

Not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is. Until you have proof all you have is suspicion. And you can't punish someone for suspicion.

 

So your point brings up another point. If this is possible, how many Dominicans do you think may have done the same as Sammy (if true). Players like Ortiz and Manny could easily have done the same thing and gotten away with it.

 

And how dumb does that make Miguel Tejada look?

 

That might just be an A's/Conseco thing. I think if a lot of players played for the Yanks or A's they would have had a bigger chance of being mentioned.

 

 

Just curious as to why Yankeee players had a higher chance to be mentioned in your opinion.

 

Didn't they have the guys from the inside (Mets too) that that gave the info to Mitchell?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Just curious as to why Yankeee players had a higher chance to be mentioned in your opinion.

because the ones providing the stuff worked there

[WilcoFan]

corkie = willing to cheat

 

not being caught using steroids =/= innocent of all wrong doing

 

Lots of cheaters in the hall of fame. Spitball throwers, sign stealers...how about Ty Cobb's sharpened spikes?

 

willing to cheat =/= steroid user

 

This is a great point.

 

IF Sammy used (and that's a big "if), it was not illegal or outlawed by MLB the years he was most likely juicing. That does not condone it, but if he did it, it was technically "within the rules."

 

Compare this to someone like Gaylord Perry, who admitted to throwing an illegal pitch for most of his career, was caught on at least one occasion with a foriegn substance/object, and yet he seems to be revered. Would you be in favor of expelling him from the Hall of Fame seeing as it's a fact that he cheated, rather than keeping someone out based on speculation and public opinion? It makes no sense.

 

 

Competitors in all arenas have always looked to gain an edge though whatever means are possible, but within reason (or not). The fact that others in previous eras did not juice is only due to the lack of juice.

 

It is difficult for me to revere or admire athletes from bygone days when I know full well that the scope of their cheating was only limited by the methods available to them.

 

The notion that they somehow had more integrity than players of the steroid era is just ridiculous, IMO.

 

The problem is that so many sportswriters are so stupidly nostalgic for days that never actually existed. A little too much "Field of Dreams," not quite enough critical analysis.

[Yanksfan1523]

Remember kids. It's only cheating if you get caught. \:D/

 

I'm sure Sammy will take the lost 20 (or whatever it was) g's in the Dominican over being in that report anyday.

 

Did Sammy juice? Probably. Has Sammy gotten caught? Nope, and that should by all accounts leave him free and clear when it comes time to get in the Hall. And I just don't foresee anything coming back to bite Sammy in the butt. I'd imagine Dominican drug runners are probably a lot harder to get to talk than an American already facing 25 years in the slammer.

 

Not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is. Until you have proof all you have is suspicion. And you can't punish someone for suspicion.

 

So your point brings up another point. If this is possible, how many Dominicans do you think may have done the same as Sammy (if true). Players like Ortiz and Manny could easily have done the same thing and gotten away with it.

 

And how dumb does that make Miguel Tejada look?

 

That might just be an A's/Conseco thing. I think if a lot of players played for the Yanks or A's they would have had a bigger chance of being mentioned.

 

 

Just curious as to why Yankeee players had a higher chance to be mentioned in your opinion.

 

Didn't they have the guys from the inside (Mets too) that that gave the info to Mitchell?

 

If you are referring to McNamee, he followed Clemens from Toronto. The Yankees hired him at Clemens request.

[Soul]

Didn't they have the guys from the inside (Mets too) that that gave the info to Mitchell?

 

If you are referring to McNamee, he followed Clemens from Toronto. The Yankees hired him at Clemens request.

 

Awesome.

 

Is anyone else starting to smell rotten eggs when Gammons opens his mouth ranting about how McNamee is a "gutter rat" or whatever, when it was Clemens who pulled the guy all across North America with him.

 

Hey Peter -- shut the hell up, thanks.

[hardcorecubfan]

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2003/06/04/image556839x.jpg

 

 

corkie does not = steriod user

 

obviously you and derwood don't know wood species, that wasn't cork in that but but an anomaly that can occur in ash and sometimes maple when the corkasorius worm, which is indiginous to the Dominican Republic, invades the wood. So you can't blame Sammy :roll:

[The Voice of Reason]

The viper chimes in.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-071216morrissey,0,3909108.column?coll=chi_tab02_layout

 

Perhaps you saw the two letters to the editor in Saturday's Tribune Sports section.

 

One suggested that media members take a hard look at themselves in regard to their treatment of Sammy Sosa, seeing as how Sosa's name didn't show up in the Mitchell report.

 

The other suggested that media members apologize to Sosa.

 

To the first writer: Will do.

 

To the second writer: Not a chance.

 

The Mitchell investigation, which cost $60 million to put into document form a lot of what we already knew, was far from comprehensive. The steroids suppliers who provided information to baseball investigators were not the source of performance-enhancing drugs for everyone in baseball.

 

It follows then that some players—probably even many players—fell through the cracks of former Sen. George Mitchell's probe.

 

Let's take a look at the trinity of latter-day home run kings—Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Sosa.

 

Bonds' name showed up in the Mitchell report because of the federal probe into BALCO, the California company that allegedly supplied steroids to elite athletes. Much of the information became public only because it was leaked from grand jury testimony. It took the full power of the federal government to get that information, and even then, prosecutors say, people such as Bonds weren't what is commonly referred to as "honest" with their answers. Bonds eventually was indicted on federal perjury and obstruction-of-justice charges.

 

Most people believe that Bonds was a walking, talking vat of pharmaceuticals.

 

Two years ago, McGwire told a House committee looking into the use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball that he didn't want to dwell on the past. By doing so, he all but admitted he was a user. McGwire's name did not show up on Mitchell's list, though it really makes no difference. He has disappeared from public view and is widely considered a man whose numbers were artificially pumped up.

 

And Sammy? Clean as a whistle, according to his many fans. Must be, because his name didn't show up in the Mitchell report, they say.

 

Are we to believe that, among the Big Three, only Sosa's numbers are legitimate? That Sosa came by his amazing power naturally? That his numbers suddenly jumped when he reached a certain age? That somehow those stunning numbers—numbers that are out of whack with baseball history—were the result of superior talent and work ethic?

 

To make that leap, you'd need a few steroid injections yourself.

[CuseCubFan69]

Didn't they have the guys from the inside (Mets too) that that gave the info to Mitchell?

 

If you are referring to McNamee, he followed Clemens from Toronto. The Yankees hired him at Clemens request.

 

Awesome.

 

Is anyone else starting to smell rotten eggs when Gammons opens his mouth ranting about how McNamee is a "gutter rat" or whatever, when it was Clemens who pulled the guy all across North America with him.

 

Hey Peter -- shut the hell up, thanks.

 

That's the thing to me, the guys that talked are the ones that impacted the teams they dealt with. A lot of teams skated away from this due to this and Rog and Canseco are the guys that effected the teams they played on steroid/HGH wise.

 

I wonder if the Canadian tax payers got to pay for the Rockets HGH? You have to love a National Health plan.