Ryan Theriot

[BigbadB]

And if I could just add a bit more to this discussion, Cedeno would not be the first player that struggled in his first full season in the majors.

 

Sammy Sosa at age 22, and his 3rd season in MLB: .203 .240 .335

Ryne Sandberg at age 22: .271 .312 .372

Alfonso Soriano at age 25 (first full season in MLB): .268 .304 .432

 

The list could go on and on. Just because a guy has a poor first full season in the majors does not mean he is forever going to suck at the major league level.

 

I think the Miguel Cabrera's and Albert Pujols' of the world have somewhat tainted the views of what can or should be expected from young players entering the major leagues.

 

Yes, for every Sammy Sosa, there is also a Corey Patterson. I'm not attempting to argue that every player that has a bad first season will find success eventually. But, you really do know now what you have in Theriot. His age and his progression dictate where he is now. With Cedeno, we really don't know. His outstanding minor league numbers don't translate to his major league numbers, because he's never been given the chance to see if his minor league numbers are truly an aberration.

[Sammy Sofa]

But, you really do know now what you have in Theriot. His age and his progression dictate where he is now. With Cedeno, we really don't know. His outstanding minor league numbers don't translate to his major league numbers, because he's never been given the chance to see if his minor league numbers are truly an aberration.

 

*Slow clap*

[Abe Frohman]

And if I could just add a bit more to this discussion, Cedeno would not be the first player that struggled in his first full season in the majors.

 

Sammy Sosa at age 22, and his 3rd season in MLB: .203 .240 .335

Ryne Sandberg at age 22: .271 .312 .372

Alfonso Soriano at age 25 (first full season in MLB): .268 .304 .432

 

The list could go on and on. Just because a guy has a poor first full season in the majors does not mean he is forever going to suck at the major league level.

 

Maybe you could cut a slice of that hypocrisy pie for Ryan Theriot - since he had such a miserable first season?

[abuck1220]

And if I could just add a bit more to this discussion, Cedeno would not be the first player that struggled in his first full season in the majors.

 

Sammy Sosa at age 22, and his 3rd season in MLB: .203 .240 .335

Ryne Sandberg at age 22: .271 .312 .372

Alfonso Soriano at age 25 (first full season in MLB): .268 .304 .432

 

The list could go on and on. Just because a guy has a poor first full season in the majors does not mean he is forever going to suck at the major league level.

 

Maybe you could cut a slice of that hypocrisy pie for Ryan Theriot - since he had such a miserable first season?

 

...at age 27. not 22.

[Guest]

And if I could just add a bit more to this discussion, Cedeno would not be the first player that struggled in his first full season in the majors.

 

Sammy Sosa at age 22, and his 3rd season in MLB: .203 .240 .335

Ryne Sandberg at age 22: .271 .312 .372

Alfonso Soriano at age 25 (first full season in MLB): .268 .304 .432

 

The list could go on and on. Just because a guy has a poor first full season in the majors does not mean he is forever going to suck at the major league level.

 

Maybe you could cut a slice of that hypocrisy pie for Ryan Theriot - since he had such a miserable first season?

 

You missed a key factor.

[98navigator]

IDK. how bad do they want Prior?

 

I can assure you that Towers would be willing to wait another year for Prior.

 

If you believe the recent reports, Prior will be nontendered tomorrow and Towers will be able to pick him up without giving up any of his talent. If Prior refuses to add a year or option then he's going to have to go...

[Sammy Sofa]

And if I could just add a bit more to this discussion, Cedeno would not be the first player that struggled in his first full season in the majors.

 

Sammy Sosa at age 22, and his 3rd season in MLB: .203 .240 .335

Ryne Sandberg at age 22: .271 .312 .372

Alfonso Soriano at age 25 (first full season in MLB): .268 .304 .432

 

The list could go on and on. Just because a guy has a poor first full season in the majors does not mean he is forever going to suck at the major league level.

 

Maybe you could cut a slice of that hypocrisy pie for Ryan Theriot - since he had such a miserable first season?

 

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

[JeffH]

IDK. how bad do they want Prior?

 

I can assure you that Towers would be willing to wait another year for Prior.

 

If you believe the recent reports, Prior will be nontendered tomorrow and Towers will be able to pick him up without giving up any of his talent. If Prior refuses to add a year or option then he's going to have to go...

 

ESPN's Jerry Crasnick believes that the Cubs will tender Prior a contract.

[Keener98]

Ryan Theriot was barely better than Caesar Izturis last year people, thats how bad he is. Why is this so hard to see?

[YearofDaCubs]

IDK. how bad do they want Prior?

 

I can assure you that Towers would be willing to wait another year for Prior.

 

If you believe the recent reports, Prior will be nontendered tomorrow and Towers will be able to pick him up without giving up any of his talent. If Prior refuses to add a year or option then he's going to have to go...

 

ESPN's Jerry Crasnick believes that the Cubs will tender Prior a contract.

Let's hope so. We already invested too much into him to just let him walk now, that they actually found something wrong with him. It's worth the risk. Sure, it's risky but even if he doesn't accept a 2 yr deal we can have him come back, if he shows that he can be as good as he was, his trade value would sky rocket.

[Abe Frohman]

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

 

Wow? I didn't ignore the age of the players, because the age of Cedeno and Theriot is insignificant - unless the Cubs are banking on either one of the two guys to being the SS of their future. So, why should the Cubs suffer through having Cedeno learn "on the job?" Sure he has plenty of talent, but mentally he is not a mature player - as you can tell if you note his baserunning miscues, his mental errors defensively, and his mindless approach at the plate.

 

I'd love for Cedeno to pull it all together and take the SS job, but until that happens Theriot is best option on the Cubs roster. It's not a "man crush" or hate for Cedeno.

[Backtobanks]

Backtobanks wrote:

"I've said this before and I will say it again. Lou has decided that Theriot is the starting SS and his is the only opinion that counts. I would love to see the Cubs have open competition at SS and let the better player start. I think the hangup with Cedeno is that he makes too many mistakes (physical and mental) for Lou. I think Cedeno needs to dedicate himself to reaching his full potential. His reputation as a playboy might have an effect on his onfield play. The problem is that once a player gets neglected by Lou (Cedeno, Murton, Marshall, etc.), I think there's little hope of the situation changing".

 

 

Hoops wrote:

"All good points. It wouldn't surprise me if Lou was telling Hendry every other day to trade those guys for a proven bat or arm."

 

I'm sure Lou is telling Hendry exactly that. The roster is overflowing with spare parts, so you know quite a few players will have to go. That brings up another pet peeve of mine: the fact everyone is bashing Hendry while nobody is bashing Lou. Lou is the one playing Theriot over Cedeno. Lou is the one who played Floyd over Murton. Lou is the one asking for a lefty bat and more speed in RF and the middle IF. Lou is the one who wanted a veteran C (Kendall) over Soto for quite a while.

I'm not defending Hendry, but many of these decisions are being made because he is trying to give his manager what he wants. Now Hendry will end up overpaying for Fukudome and Roberts and be bashed for that.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

 

Wow? I didn't ignore the age of the players, because the age of Cedeno and Theriot is insignificant - unless the Cubs are banking on either one of the two guys to being the SS of their future. So, why should the Cubs suffer through having Cedeno learn "on the job?" Sure he has plenty of talent, but mentally he is not a mature player - as you can tell if you note his baserunning miscues, his mental errors defensively, and his mindless approach at the plate.

 

I'd love for Cedeno to pull it all together and take the SS job, but until that happens Theriot is best option on the Cubs roster. It's not a "man crush" or hate for Cedeno.

 

Because you don't lose anything, Theriot is already the baseline of performance. If Cedeno fails, then he's Theriot.

[David]

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

 

Wow? I didn't ignore the age of the players, because the age of Cedeno and Theriot is insignificant - unless the Cubs are banking on either one of the two guys to being the SS of their future. So, why should the Cubs suffer through having Cedeno learn "on the job?" Sure he has plenty of talent, but mentally he is not a mature player - as you can tell if you note his baserunning miscues, his mental errors defensively, and his mindless approach at the plate.

 

I'd love for Cedeno to pull it all together and take the SS job, but until that happens Theriot is best option on the Cubs roster. It's not a "man crush" or hate for Cedeno.

 

Because you don't lose anything, Theriot is already the baseline of performance. If Cedeno fails, then he's Theriot.

 

Perfect way of putting it.

 

Hell, even in Cedeno's TERRIBLE 2006, the difference in OPS was only .610 to Theriot's .672 of 2007.

[Sammy Sofa]

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

 

Wow? I didn't ignore the age of the players, because the age of Cedeno and Theriot is insignificant - unless the Cubs are banking on either one of the two guys to being the SS of their future. So, why should the Cubs suffer through having Cedeno learn "on the job?" Sure he has plenty of talent, but mentally he is not a mature player - as you can tell if you note his baserunning miscues, his mental errors defensively, and his mindless approach at the plate.

 

I'd love for Cedeno to pull it all together and take the SS job, but until that happens Theriot is best option on the Cubs roster. It's not a "man crush" or hate for Cedeno.

 

Their ages are anything but insignificant.

 

So you want Cedeno to "mature" as a player, but he shouldn't take playing time from Theriot?

 

Gotcha.

[98navigator]

IDK. how bad do they want Prior?

 

I can assure you that Towers would be willing to wait another year for Prior.

 

If you believe the recent reports, Prior will be nontendered tomorrow and Towers will be able to pick him up without giving up any of his talent. If Prior refuses to add a year or option then he's going to have to go...

 

ESPN's Jerry Crasnick believes that the Cubs will tender Prior a contract.

 

I guess it's a matter of opinion because Buster Olney was on the Waddle & Silvy show this morning talking about how Prior's most likely going to be nontendered. The local media is saying the same. I think the Cubs will try to get him to sign a two year deal or they will make one last effort to include him in a trade. Tommorrow's the deadline so we'll all know soon enough.

[Abe Frohman]

Their ages are anything but insignificant.

 

So you want Cedeno to "mature" as a player, but he shouldn't take playing time from Theriot?

 

Gotcha.

 

He shouldn't make bone-headed baserunning mistakes, or have a clue at the plate so that Lou isn't forced to play Theriot. He needs to mature as a player, in other words.

 

Got that?

[Sammy Sofa]

Their ages are anything but insignificant.

 

So you want Cedeno to "mature" as a player, but he shouldn't take playing time from Theriot?

 

Gotcha.

 

He shouldn't make bone-headed baserunning mistakes, or have a clue at the plate so that Lou isn't forced to play Theriot. He needs to mature as a player, in other words.

 

Got that?

 

And how exactly do you propose that he does this without playing?

[USSoccer]

Their ages are anything but insignificant.

 

So you want Cedeno to "mature" as a player, but he shouldn't take playing time from Theriot?

 

Gotcha.

 

He shouldn't make bone-headed baserunning mistakes, or have a clue at the plate so that Lou isn't forced to play Theriot. He needs to mature as a player, in other words.

 

Got that?

 

First of all, throw out plate production. He's at the least equal to Theriot in that regard right now, despite age.

 

Next, do you really believe a handful of baserunning mistakes makes him an immature player? Are you really going to hose him as a prospect because he overslid 2B and got tagged out? How is he supposed to mature as a player if he's behind an inferior, older non-prospect?

 

You aren't using any critical thinking skills when making these statements. Theriot was the definition of terrible in 2007. He had one good month amidst a sea of crap. He's 28. He doesn't get on base. He doesn't hit for power. He's not that fast. He doesn't have good range or a good SS arm. How again is he anything better than a utility player?

[CubColtPacer]

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

 

Wow? I didn't ignore the age of the players, because the age of Cedeno and Theriot is insignificant - unless the Cubs are banking on either one of the two guys to being the SS of their future. So, why should the Cubs suffer through having Cedeno learn "on the job?" Sure he has plenty of talent, but mentally he is not a mature player - as you can tell if you note his baserunning miscues, his mental errors defensively, and his mindless approach at the plate.

 

I'd love for Cedeno to pull it all together and take the SS job, but until that happens Theriot is best option on the Cubs roster. It's not a "man crush" or hate for Cedeno.

 

Because you don't lose anything, Theriot is already the baseline of performance. If Cedeno fails, then he's Theriot.

 

Perfect way of putting it.

 

Hell, even in Cedeno's TERRIBLE 2006, the difference in OPS was only .610 to Theriot's .672 of 2007.

 

I wouldn't quite go to that level. 62 points is a pretty dramatic difference. If you added 62 points to Theriot's total, you'd be getting close to Cedeno's upside for this year, wouldn't you? I can't see him suddenly figuring out major league pitching and becoming an .800 OPS SS, at least right away.

 

Plus his 2006 included some terrible defense from Cedeno, and also an 8 out of 16 SB ratio (Theriot's 28 out of 32 SB's does add value, although not as much as the people who think he should be a starter think it does). Those have to be factored in.

 

So Cedeno's ceiling is much higher than Theriot's, and his floor is also lower than Theriot's. The Cubs need offense enough to warrant giving Cedeno another chance to gamble on his upside, but it definitely is a gamble and I don't believe for a second that Cedeno at his worst is Theriot.

[Tracer Bullet]

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

 

Wow? I didn't ignore the age of the players, because the age of Cedeno and Theriot is insignificant - unless the Cubs are banking on either one of the two guys to being the SS of their future. So, why should the Cubs suffer through having Cedeno learn "on the job?" Sure he has plenty of talent, but mentally he is not a mature player - as you can tell if you note his baserunning miscues, his mental errors defensively, and his mindless approach at the plate.

 

I'd love for Cedeno to pull it all together and take the SS job, but until that happens Theriot is best option on the Cubs roster. It's not a "man crush" or hate for Cedeno.

 

Because you don't lose anything, Theriot is already the baseline of performance. If Cedeno fails, then he's Theriot.

 

Perfect way of putting it.

 

Hell, even in Cedeno's TERRIBLE 2006, the difference in OPS was only .610 to Theriot's .672 of 2007.

 

I wouldn't quite go to that level. 62 points is a pretty dramatic difference. If you added 62 points to Theriot's total, you'd be getting close to Cedeno's upside for this year, wouldn't you? I can't see him suddenly figuring out major league pitching and becoming an .800 OPS SS, at least right away.

 

Plus his 2006 included some terrible defense from Cedeno, and also an 8 out of 16 SB ratio (Theriot's 28 out of 32 SB's does add value, although not as much as the people who think he should be a starter think it does). Those have to be factored in.

 

So Cedeno's ceiling is much higher than Theriot's, and his floor is also lower than Theriot's. The Cubs need offense enough to warrant giving Cedeno another chance to gamble on his upside, but it definitely is a gamble and I don't believe for a second that Cedeno at his worst is Theriot.

 

Take out Theriot's 1 huge month and does that change anything? I frankly don't think Theriot's 2007, as bad as it was, is his floor.

[Abe Frohman]

 

And how exactly do you propose that he does this without playing?

 

Before the season starts, there is this thing called Spring Training. There are also several leagues in the offseason - which I believe that Cedeno is taking advantage of.

 

First of all, throw out plate production. He's at the least equal to Theriot in that regard right now, despite age.

 

Next, do you really believe a handful of baserunning mistakes makes him an immature player? Are you really going to hose him as a prospect because he overslid 2B and got tagged out? How is he supposed to mature as a player if he's behind an inferior, older non-prospect?

 

I am not hosing Cedeno as a prospect, I have hope for him and he is young enough to still polish his skills. I hope he outplays Theriot, because Cedeno has the ability to be a great SS. I think the baserunning mistakes, but mostly his approach at the plate indicate that he needs to take a different approach.

 

You aren't using any critical thinking skills when making these statements. Theriot was the definition of terrible in 2007. He had one good month amidst a sea of crap. He's 28. He doesn't get on base. He doesn't hit for power. He's not that fast. He doesn't have good range or a good SS arm. How again is he anything better than a utility player?

 

Man, I just disagree with you, that's all. It isn't that I am not using critical thinking skills - it's that we have differences in opinions. Theriot is far from a great player, but at this point he is the better SS. Consider their difference in age, consider whatever - just RIGHT NOW (or in 2007) the Cubs were a better team with Ryan Theriot playing SS. He made the plays at SS that he was supposed to make and did a good enough job to help the Cubs win the NL Central. I know that the Cubs can get better at SS, and maybe they will be better in 2008 with Cedeno there - but my arguement all along has been that in 2007, Theriot was better than Ronny Cedeno. Until proven otherwise, that will be the same in 2008 - but Ronny will get his opportunities.

[CubColtPacer]

Wow, way to completely ignore that one of the main points of this is how relevant a player's age is to this kind of analysis.

 

At 22-year-old putting up bad numbers in the majors...typical. A 27-28-year-old putting up those same numbers or worse and getting more playing time...that pretty much defines who he is. He's not going to magically morph into a different player that far along in his career.

 

Wow? I didn't ignore the age of the players, because the age of Cedeno and Theriot is insignificant - unless the Cubs are banking on either one of the two guys to being the SS of their future. So, why should the Cubs suffer through having Cedeno learn "on the job?" Sure he has plenty of talent, but mentally he is not a mature player - as you can tell if you note his baserunning miscues, his mental errors defensively, and his mindless approach at the plate.

 

I'd love for Cedeno to pull it all together and take the SS job, but until that happens Theriot is best option on the Cubs roster. It's not a "man crush" or hate for Cedeno.

 

Because you don't lose anything, Theriot is already the baseline of performance. If Cedeno fails, then he's Theriot.

 

Perfect way of putting it.

 

Hell, even in Cedeno's TERRIBLE 2006, the difference in OPS was only .610 to Theriot's .672 of 2007.

 

I wouldn't quite go to that level. 62 points is a pretty dramatic difference. If you added 62 points to Theriot's total, you'd be getting close to Cedeno's upside for this year, wouldn't you? I can't see him suddenly figuring out major league pitching and becoming an .800 OPS SS, at least right away.

 

Plus his 2006 included some terrible defense from Cedeno, and also an 8 out of 16 SB ratio (Theriot's 28 out of 32 SB's does add value, although not as much as the people who think he should be a starter think it does). Those have to be factored in.

 

So Cedeno's ceiling is much higher than Theriot's, and his floor is also lower than Theriot's. The Cubs need offense enough to warrant giving Cedeno another chance to gamble on his upside, but it definitely is a gamble and I don't believe for a second that Cedeno at his worst is Theriot.

 

Take out Theriot's 1 huge month and does that change anything? I frankly don't think Theriot's 2007, as bad as it was, is his floor.

 

You could say the same thing about Cedeno's April 2006 month where he had a .815 OPS, which happened to be the only month that season where he was above .665. Cedeno's floor could definitely be below his 2006 numbers, especially since he had 4 straight months where he he had OPS numbers of .599, .605, .467, and .465 while playing everyday.

[Sammy Sofa]

 

And how exactly do you propose that he does this without playing?

 

Before the season starts, there is this thing called Spring Training. There are also several leagues in the offseason - which I believe that Cedeno is taking advantage of.

 

Then he should have the job already.

[Abe Frohman]

 

And how exactly do you propose that he does this without playing?

 

Before the season starts, there is this thing called Spring Training. There are also several leagues in the offseason - which I believe that Cedeno is taking advantage of.

 

Then he should have the job already.

 

When he becomes a decent baserunner, fielder, and hitter - I'm sure he will. Until then, there are a lot of people who agree that learning how to play baseball is best if done before you are a Major Leaguer.

Edited December 11, 2007 by Abe Frohman