Theriot to host clinic

[BigbadB]

Something should be said for going from one of the worst teams in all of baseball to winning the NL Central.

 

Are you suggesting Theriot is the sole or even primary reason for the Cubs winning the NLC?

 

I wasn't referring to Theriot at all. That doesn't even make sense. More so the complete bashing of Hendry, who made some pretty good additions before the 2007 season.

 

Probably should have included quotes covering what I was commenting on:

 

It changed because Hendry needs to be fired. Hendry thinks Theriot was so good at SS last year (see Neifi: He saved us references from a few years back) and he isn't looking to upgrade SS.

 

Hendry's logic is what changes things.

 

We cannot expect to see competence on the field until there is competence in the front office.

 

Something should be said for going from one of the worst teams in all of baseball to winning the NLC? The first part of that sentence says it all. Hendry had one of the worst teams in all of baseball. He didn't inherit that, he created it. With the resources he's had to work with, this team NEVER should have been in the position to be one of the worst teams in baseball.

[Rob]

Something should be said for going from one of the worst teams in all of baseball to winning the NL Central.

 

Are you suggesting Theriot is the sole or even primary reason for the Cubs winning the NLC?

 

I wasn't referring to Theriot at all. That doesn't even make sense. More so the complete bashing of Hendry, who made some pretty good additions before the 2007 season.

 

That's a questionable statement.

 

The NL central is pitifully weak. Hendry saw an opening to compete, and threw a bunch of money at some players. It worked, but Soriano's contract is going to be hurting us badly later down the line, and I don't expect Lilly or Marquis to live up to the money their making every year either.

 

He sold out a chunk of our future flexibility to take a short term shot... I mean, think what we could have done this offseason without the 26.375 million (signing bonuses not included) going against this year's budget from those three alone. (and that number is only gonna escalate, as the backloading kicks in.) ARod could have been a legit possibility.

[Abe Frohman]

You don't see that the Cubs improved from 2006? Because the NL Central was weak, you assume that the Cubs should have won the division after being in the cellar the year before?

 

The Cubs did what they SHOULD have done and dropped some coin to improve the team with a pretty weak FA pool. This year, they are trying to get better signing a solid player from Japan, or possibly trading for one of the games best leadoff hitters - and many here can only point out that we already have a 2nd baseman in Mark DeRosa?

 

All I am saying is that mismanagement of the team (IMO) led to injuries and attrition that resulted in the Cubs being horrible. Of course the GM has to take responsibility, but this club is going in the right direction.

[BigbadB]

All I am saying is that mismanagement of the team (IMO) led to injuries and attrition that resulted in the Cubs being horrible. Of course the GM has to take responsibility, but this club is going in the right direction.

 

Who do you think is responsible for mismanagement of the team? Hendry's dog didn't hire the management team that failed miserably. Hendry did.

[David]

If signing a 32 year old secondbaseman-turned-outfielder (an overrated one, at that) coming off a career year to a massive, backloaded 8 year contract = "headed in the right direction," then we must have been pretty freaking off course in the first place.

 

I blame Hendry for both of those failures.

 

He's made a few good moves, but you can't somehow cite those as a way to justify the overall failure of his tenure to produce a good baseball team, particularly when you take into account the payroll he has had at his disposal.

[NCCubFan]

Of course the GM has to take responsibility, but this club is going in the right direction.

Four years in a row and still not even back to where they were in 2003 is NOT going in the right direction. To be going in the right direction they'd have to progress beyond where they were in 2003 (which would mean making the World Series). But if you want to consider three steps forward after taking four steps back going in the right direction, be my guest.

[Abe Frohman]

All I am saying is that mismanagement of the team (IMO) led to injuries and attrition that resulted in the Cubs being horrible. Of course the GM has to take responsibility, but this club is going in the right direction.

 

Who do you think is responsible for mismanagement of the team? Hendry's dog didn't hire the management team that failed miserably. Hendry did.

 

Dusty Baker and his circus of coaches, of course. Hendry's dog didn't send Baker packing or hire Lou either, did he?

 

Of course the GM has to take responsibility, but this club is going in the right direction.

Four years in a row and still not even back to where they were in 2003 is NOT going in the right direction. To be going in the right direction they'd have to progress beyond where they were in 2003 (which would mean making the World Series). But if you want to consider three steps forward after taking four steps back going in the right direction, be my guest.

 

How exactly is going from last place to winning a division a step backwards again?

[abuck1220]

because he's partially (mostly) to blame for them finishing in last? do you seriously not get this?

[Abe Frohman]

because he's partially (mostly) to blame for them finishing in last? do you seriously not get this?

 

No really, I get it. I'm just sticking to my main arguement, which basically boils down to we are moving in the right direction, despite some crappy decisions. Hendry has made good and bad moves, mostly bad - I know.

[jersey cubs fan]

Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Wait.

 

Wait a minute.

 

Is somebody giving props to Hendry for moving the team in the right direction from the lows of where he initially brought them?

 

That is just absurdity at its finest. What a ridiculous notion. Hendry is why 85 wins looked halfway decent this year. 85 wins should be a disgusting disappointment by now. 5 years into a string of extremely high payrolls when you already had lots of talent on hand should be giving you 90 wins each and every year, with 95-100 on occasion. Going from worst to first is only good if you ignore the fact that he brought them to worst in the first place, and first was only first because the competition was so weak.

[Rob]

You don't see that the Cubs improved from 2006? Because the NL Central was weak, you assume that the Cubs should have won the division after being in the cellar the year before?

 

The Cubs did what they SHOULD have done and dropped some coin to improve the team with a pretty weak FA pool. This year, they are trying to get better signing a solid player from Japan, or possibly trading for one of the games best leadoff hitters - and many here can only point out that we already have a 2nd baseman in Mark DeRosa?

 

All I am saying is that mismanagement of the team (IMO) led to injuries and attrition that resulted in the Cubs being horrible. Of course the GM has to take responsibility, but this club is going in the right direction.

 

I wasn't questioning whether the Cubs got better between 2006 and 2007. I was questioning whether it was smart allocation of resources. Pointing out that the NL Central was weak works in Hendry's favor, as it increased his odds of making it to the playoffs, and having the spending spree actually pay off in the end. Sadly, this was not the case. It was a calculated risk, and Hendry was well aware that giving large contracts to Soriano, Lilly, and Marquis would negatively impact his ability to add meaningful contributors in the next few seasons (this one included).

 

Let's be completely honest here, this team is not heading in the right direction. We have an aging core who wont be improving, while occupying a significant portion of the payroll. Lee, Soriano, Aramis, Lilly and Z alone are gonna account for:

 

2008 - 62 mil

2009 - 74.4

2010 - 76.625

 

And those numbers don't include signing bonuses that may be factored into payroll...

 

Considering Hendry's penchant for dolling out multi-year contracts to overpriced mediocrities, we're gonna have real troubles fielding a winning team. Don't get me wrong now, I like the fact that he's looking at Brian Roberts and Kosuke Fukudome. But unless our payroll shoots through the roof, we can't keep affording to put guys like that out there...

 

Our window is closing. Hendry can continue to fill in around our big performers and pray for a miracle, but in 2010, we're gonna have real trouble.

 

And please, stop referring to people as "leadoff" hitters. If you want to give Roberts his due credit for getting on base and stealing at an excellent clip, go ahead... but we need to concentrate on getting the best eight players on the field. We can worry about where in the lineup to bat them later.

[TheDude]

Of course the GM has to take responsibility, but this club is going in the right direction.

Four years in a row and still not even back to where they were in 2003 is NOT going in the right direction. To be going in the right direction they'd have to progress beyond where they were in 2003 (which would mean making the World Series). But if you want to consider three steps forward after taking four steps back going in the right direction, be my guest.

 

The 2004 and 2007 teams were both better than the 2003 team talent-wise, so you're off-base in your steps forward and backward comments. People need to move on from their Hendry hatred from the 2006 season. While there is certainly inefficiency in the roster salaries that can be directly attributed to Hendry, who has made a reputation overpaying for B-D grade players, the economics of baseball is a flawed world and anyone searching for a truly efficient baseball line-up financially needs to invest in an xbox. Baseball players get paid for service time as much as talent, and having a veteran team equates to having an overpaid team. Hendry is not an 'A' grade GM, nor is he an 'F' grade GM. People are free to debate the grades in the middle, and its all fair game, but I take issue with the all-despair attitude.

 

Regarding 2008, the Cubs have a nice solid core under contract and many of the names in the rumor mill are respectable improvements over the 2007 lineup that address the team's most glaring hole (OBP). Some might argue SS is the biggest hole, but from a team perspective its OBP, which will drive a higher OPS on an already pretty decent SLG team. Fukudome projects much higher OBP than Jones ever could, while chipping in the same moderate power and better defense. Roberts also gets on base at a high clip and facilitates a move that many, many people around here have bashed the Cubs for not doing already (move Soriano down in the lineup). Personally I believe Soriano's numbers will drop if moved down based on history, but I wouldn't object to the move in principle if it drove an OBP-minded top of the order. Soto projects as the everyday catcher and represents a significant improvement at that position.

 

These are all right-direction decisions if they happen, because the team allows its youth talent to play while also moderately improving team speed and defense, but most importanly, improving team OBP pretty significantly. None represent a top 20 player acquisition or upgrade the likes of a Rodriguez or Cabrera. But far too many people around here equate success at GM to obtaining the best available player year each year. But collectively these rumors do improve the line-up and do put a higher talent product on the field for 2008.

 

Given Lee's drop-off in power numbers, but continued success with strike zone management and gap power, it would not surprise me to see Lou move him up to the 2-hole behind Roberts (assuming that deal happens). Now you project a combined 1-2 OBP combo over .370 and have a 3-6 combo (Fukudome, Ramirez, Soriano, Soto) that projects at 110+ each for HRs and doubles, and with moderate overall OBP.

 

I don't see how anyone could look at those projections as steps backwards. Yes Theriot is a hole at full-time SS. Yes DeRosa becomes displaced everyday. Yes 7-8 are questionable, low production spots. But it's not backwards movement overall.

[BigbadB]

Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Wait.

 

Wait a minute.

 

Is somebody giving props to Hendry for moving the team in the right direction from the lows of where he initially brought them?

 

That is just absurdity at its finest. What a ridiculous notion. Hendry is why 85 wins looked halfway decent this year. 85 wins should be a disgusting disappointment by now. 5 years into a string of extremely high payrolls when you already had lots of talent on hand should be giving you 90 wins each and every year, with 95-100 on occasion. Going from worst to first is only good if you ignore the fact that he brought them to worst in the first place, and first was only first because the competition was so weak.

 

Wow, were you ever late to this party. :D

[Abe Frohman]

Sweet tap dancing Julio. Rob, when I say "leadoff" hitter - just make yourself a mental note that I am referring to the guy who hits first in the order. Besides, Alfonso Soriano is only 27, remember?

[jersey cubs fan]

Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Wait.

 

Wait a minute.

 

Is somebody giving props to Hendry for moving the team in the right direction from the lows of where he initially brought them?

 

That is just absurdity at its finest. What a ridiculous notion. Hendry is why 85 wins looked halfway decent this year. 85 wins should be a disgusting disappointment by now. 5 years into a string of extremely high payrolls when you already had lots of talent on hand should be giving you 90 wins each and every year, with 95-100 on occasion. Going from worst to first is only good if you ignore the fact that he brought them to worst in the first place, and first was only first because the competition was so weak.

 

Wow, were you ever late to this party. :D

 

I didn't realize a Theriot clinic thread would veer into such utter nonsense.

[BigbadB]

I don't see how anyone could look at those projections as steps backwards. Yes Theriot is a hole at full-time SS. Yes DeRosa becomes displaced everyday. Yes 7-8 are questionable, low production spots. But it's not backwards movement overall.

 

Getting these players wouldn't be a step backwards. But, to finally address this problem 5 years later is rather pathetic. And, while it's all nice that they are talking about Roberts and Fukudome, neither has a Cub jersey of their very own quite yet.

 

That he is still around to make these decisions is the biggest problem of all. You shouldn't get as many chances as he's been given.

[BigbadB]

I didn't realize a Theriot clinic thread would veer into such utter nonsense.

 

Well, I had it all under control anyway. :D

[Abe Frohman]

Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Wait.

 

Wait a minute.

 

Is somebody giving props to Hendry for moving the team in the right direction from the lows of where he initially brought them?

 

That is just absurdity at its finest. What a ridiculous notion. Hendry is why 85 wins looked halfway decent this year. 85 wins should be a disgusting disappointment by now. 5 years into a string of extremely high payrolls when you already had lots of talent on hand should be giving you 90 wins each and every year, with 95-100 on occasion. Going from worst to first is only good if you ignore the fact that he brought them to worst in the first place, and first was only first because the competition was so weak.

 

Absurd. Ridiculous. Got it.

 

You honestly don't think 2007 was an improvement over 2006? To me, that is the definition of absurd and ridiculous. Or do you just like finding my posts and injecting those two words because I don't think Ryan Theriot is the worst player on the roster, or that I don't think Jim Hendry is the most horrible GM in baseball.

 

When did Hendry take over? How many times have the Cubs been "in it" since then? Compare that to the 80's, 90's, etc. The Cubs just might be headed in the right direction. They certainly have the money, and they owe it to us to spend it. They have stated that they have a "plan" and I'd like to reserve my complete opinion of this offseason when all the acquisitions have been made.

 

If the Cubs can land Fukudome, Roberts (I know, it would be terrible to get Brian Roberts to hit at the top of the order because we already have DeRosa, who's a swell guy), and whoever else - that improves the team. That's what we all want. F how much money it costs, if the Cubs can spend it and not destroy their room to wheel/deal in the future.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't see how anyone could look at those projections as steps backwards. Yes Theriot is a hole at full-time SS. Yes DeRosa becomes displaced everyday. Yes 7-8 are questionable, low production spots. But it's not backwards movement overall.

 

Getting these players wouldn't be a step backwards. But, to finally address this problem 5 years later is rather pathetic. And, while it's all nice that they are talking about Roberts and Fukudome, neither has a Cub jersey of their very own quite yet.

 

That he is still around to make these decisions is the biggest problem of all. You shouldn't get as many chances as he's been given.

 

If they managed to finish with back to back .500 seasons for the second time under his leadership, he should get a lifetime contract.

[UK1679666180]

 

The 2004 and 2007 teams were both better than the 2003 team talent-wise, so you're off-base in your steps forward and backward comments. People need to move on from their Hendry hatred from the 2006 season. While there is certainly inefficiency in the roster salaries that can be directly attributed to Hendry, who has made a reputation overpaying for B-D grade players, the economics of baseball is a flawed world and anyone searching for a truly efficient baseball line-up financially needs to invest in an xbox. Baseball players get paid for service time as much as talent, and having a veteran team equates to having an overpaid team. Hendry is not an 'A' grade GM, nor is he an 'F' grade GM. People are free to debate the grades in the middle, and its all fair game, but I take issue with the all-despair attitude.

 

 

I disagree with last year's team being more talented than the '03 team. The '07 version of Z, Hill, and Lilly would've competed with Clement as the 4th best starter of the '03 team.

 

That team had a better CF'er, RF'er, similar production in LF, 2B, SS, and C while the '07 team was stronger at 1B and 3B.

 

Bullpens were prob. close due to Borowski and Farnsworth having strong year compared to strong years from Mamrol and Howry and the 2nd half for Eyre.

 

The 07' team wasn't nearly as strong on the mound as the '03 team.

[CuseCubFan69]

Poor Theriot....even among misfits he's a misfit.

[USSoccer]

Absurd. Ridiculous. Got it.

 

You honestly don't think 2007 was an improvement over 2006? To me, that is the definition of absurd and ridiculous. Or do you just like finding my posts and injecting those two words because I don't think Ryan Theriot is the worst player on the roster, or that I don't think Jim Hendry is the most horrible GM in baseball.

 

When did Hendry take over? How many times have the Cubs been "in it" since then? Compare that to the 80's, 90's, etc. The Cubs just might be headed in the right direction. They certainly have the money, and they owe it to us to spend it. They have stated that they have a "plan" and I'd like to reserve my complete opinion of this offseason when all the acquisitions have been made.

 

If the Cubs can land Fukudome, Roberts (I know, it would be terrible to get Brian Roberts to hit at the top of the order because we already have DeRosa, who's a swell guy), and whoever else - that improves the team. That's what we all want. F how much money it costs, if the Cubs can spend it and not destroy their room to wheel/deal in the future.

 

Hendry has already destroyed his ability to wheel and deal, now. Hendry's plan is the same plan that saw us take 3 steps back in 2004, 2005 and 2006. Yeah, great, he won a horrible division with 85 wins.

 

You keep overlooking that Hendry took over with payroll and prospects, and was the creator of the mess in the first place. He should not get credit for partially cleaning up a mess he created through his incompetence in the first place, especially when cleaning it up meant crippling us beyond 2010 with superstar contracts for merely very good players.

[TheDude]

I don't see how anyone could look at those projections as steps backwards. Yes Theriot is a hole at full-time SS. Yes DeRosa becomes displaced everyday. Yes 7-8 are questionable, low production spots. But it's not backwards movement overall.

 

Getting these players wouldn't be a step backwards. But, to finally address this problem 5 years later is rather pathetic. And, while it's all nice that they are talking about Roberts and Fukudome, neither has a Cub jersey of their very own quite yet.

 

That he is still around to make these decisions is the biggest problem of all. You shouldn't get as many chances as he's been given.

 

If they managed to finish with back to back .500 seasons for the second time under his leadership, he should get a lifetime contract.

 

You know very well I never stated such a thing. I take a more moderate view rather than extremist and I get labeled a Hendry supporter. The majority of Hendry's mistakes have been minor, even if too numerous. He hasn't made any tragic, residual mistakes with the best talent in the system, like a Kazmir, and that's important. The parts he traded away, once the Cub-obsessed hyper-evaluation is removed, have been average major leaguers at best and non-factors at the majors at worst. He has brought in talent that is the current face of the team, with deals that seem like absolute highway robbery in retrospect. So I could give or take Hendry. You could do better, but you also could do a lot worse.

 

If he wants to keep his job, he will need to pull the trigger on several of these good looking rumors without stripping the farm and the future of the franchise, and that's something he shown he can do.

[jersey cubs fan]

Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Wait.

 

Wait a minute.

 

Is somebody giving props to Hendry for moving the team in the right direction from the lows of where he initially brought them?

 

That is just absurdity at its finest. What a ridiculous notion. Hendry is why 85 wins looked halfway decent this year. 85 wins should be a disgusting disappointment by now. 5 years into a string of extremely high payrolls when you already had lots of talent on hand should be giving you 90 wins each and every year, with 95-100 on occasion. Going from worst to first is only good if you ignore the fact that he brought them to worst in the first place, and first was only first because the competition was so weak.

 

Absurd. Ridiculous. Got it.

 

You honestly don't think 2007 was an improvement over 2006?

 

Where did I say that? What I said is it's absurd to give credit to Hendry for that improvement when it was only an improvement because of how god awful the team was the year before. The team that he put together.

 

Who cares that they went from worst to first? The problem is they were the worst to begin with. 85 wins should be considered a big disappointment to a Cubs fan. There is absolutely no excuse for this team to ever be below .500, and they should be able to hit the 90 win mark every season.

 

It's called setting your goals low enough so that when you achieve them some people are impressed. Don't get fooled into thinking that an improvemetn from 2006 to 2007 means anything. It would have been damn near impossible for that team not to improve.

[KingCubsFan]

Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Wait.

 

Wait a minute.

 

Is somebody giving props to Hendry for moving the team in the right direction from the lows of where he initially brought them?

 

That is just absurdity at its finest. What a ridiculous notion. Hendry is why 85 wins looked halfway decent this year. 85 wins should be a disgusting disappointment by now. 5 years into a string of extremely high payrolls when you already had lots of talent on hand should be giving you 90 wins each and every year, with 95-100 on occasion. Going from worst to first is only good if you ignore the fact that he brought them to worst in the first place, and first was only first because the competition was so weak.

 

90 wins as the bare minimum every year for 5 years? That's a ridiculously high standard. The only teams to pull that off in recent memory were the Braves (with one of the greatest GM/manager combos in history) and the Yankees (with twice the payroll as the Cubs). Not saying Hendry's done a great job, but considering the injuries we've had to deal with from our best players basically every year, I don't think anyone could have pulled 90 wins every year in the past 5 years.