MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[BigbadB]

Scott Moore and Rocky Cherry for Steve Tracshel?

[CubColtPacer]

What? Jim Hendry get ripped off? Never.

 

Outside of Juan Pierre, I can't think of one trade that Hendry has made in which he got ripped off. And looking back out at it, it wasn't really a ripped off. And before people say what about Dontrelle Willis, I say Matt Clement was better with the Cubs then Willis was with the Marlins. So that wasn't really a ripped off.

 

So, I don't get what Hendry gets a knocked for being ripped off in trades, when in reality, Hendry has made more good trades (even if they don't turned out as well as expected, ie Nomar) then bad trades.

 

Now FA, that's a different story.

 

Maddux for Izturis, although that was more of a case of wasted trade value then getting ripped off (since Maddux wasn't going to help the Cubs anyway before going into free agency).

 

Trachsel for Moore, Cherry, and Renshaw. My guess is this trade simply won't matter in 3 years.

 

I would agree with you though that if you lined up the 10 best players the Cubs have traded for and the 10 best players the Cubs have traded away during the Hendry era (as their careers have gone since the trade) the Cubs have come out way ahead, even when you get beyond Lee and Ramirez.

[BigbadB]

Sammy Sosa for Jerry Hairston, Dave Crouthers, Mike Fontenot and basically paid for Sammy's entire salary.

[BigbadB]

Jacque Jones and cash for Omar Infante?

[CubColtPacer]

Sammy Sosa for Jerry Hairston, Dave Crouthers, Mike Fontenot and basically paid for Sammy's entire salary.

 

The Cubs saved 2 million dollars even after factoring in Burnitz's salary, and as mediocre as Burnitz was the Cubs still upgraded quite a bit in RF from what Sammy was like that year. Burnitz was 27 points better in OBP, 59 points better in SLG, and played better defense. That ended up being a good deal for the Cubs.

[BigbadB]

Corey Patterson for Carlos Perez and Nate Spears?

[Roast]

Corey Patterson for Carlos Perez and Nate Spears?

Farnsworth for Novoaa and...What one crappy lefty?

[Roast]

Also, he managed to give somebody something for Jose Macias.

[BigbadB]

And even though you mentioned it already, I still have to include it:

 

Juan Pierre for Ricky Nolasco, Renyel Pinto and Sergio Mitre?

[BigbadB]

Juan Cruz and Steve Smyth for Andy Pratt and Richard Lewis?

[CubsGM]

Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi?

[BigbadB]

Mark Bellhorn for Jose Hernandez?

[BigbadB]

Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi?

 

Actually, it was Hee Seop Choi and Mike Naninni. But, that trade basically fell into Hendry's lap. Lee was on the market a full year before he was finally traded. Either no one wanted Lee's contract or very few could afford Lee's contract. Hendry had money burning a hole in his pocket and I just can't bow down at his feet for that one.

 

The Aramis one fell into his lap even more than the Lee trade did. Pittsburgh was dumping anyone who made more than league minimum that year. Patterson got hurt, and practically the day after that Lofton and Ramirez were on a bus.

[BigbadB]

Sammy Sosa for Jerry Hairston, Dave Crouthers, Mike Fontenot and basically paid for Sammy's entire salary.

 

The Cubs saved 2 million dollars even after factoring in Burnitz's salary, and as mediocre as Burnitz was the Cubs still upgraded quite a bit in RF from what Sammy was like that year. Burnitz was 27 points better in OBP, 59 points better in SLG, and played better defense. That ended up being a good deal for the Cubs.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. The Cubs devalued Sosa to nothing more than a couple of minor league throw ins while picking up most of his salary to play for someone else. It didn't have to become public knowledge that Sosa decided to leave a few innings early. Teams would have been much more interested in Sosa if the bad rep wasn't following him around at the end of that year.

 

And that's part of my problem with Hendry. Rather than looking for ways to boost a guys value, he waits until their value is at its worst and then he moves them for little return.

 

Same can be said for Maddux. Cubs weren't going to the playoffs. That's a given. But, I'd rather just keep Maddux for the last couple of months of baseball than trade him for a crappy utility infielder with next to no value. Why would you just give a player away like that? Especially to the team who swooped up Furcal out from under Hendry prior to that year.

[WilcoFan]

Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi?

 

Actually, it was Hee Seop Choi and Mike Naninni. But, that trade basically fell into Hendry's lap. Lee was on the market a full year before he was finally traded. Either no one wanted Lee's contract or very few could afford Lee's contract. Hendry had money burning a hole in his pocket and I just can't bow down at his feet for that one.

 

The Aramis one fell into his lap even more than the Lee trade did. Pittsburgh was dumping anyone who made more than league minimum that year. Patterson got hurt, and practically the day after that Lofton and Ramirez were on a bus.

 

Its not really fair to try and devalue any trade that might make Hendry look somewhat better by citing rumors and/or innuendo that surrounded the situation at the time. First of all, no one knows what really happened, who was really available, and to what extent any of them was a salary dump. More importantly, even if it was a salary dump, Hendry, not any other general manager, was the one who took on the salary. You need to take the career as a whole, not just a part of it. If not, you fall into the same trap that those who say "Ryan Theriot was a solid player last year if you take out his September" do.

 

I don't think Hendry's made a good deal since Garciaparra deal, but I'll give him credit for being the one to get Lee and Ramirez, especially because I certainly doubted Ramirez (and over-valued Bobby Hill) when the deal happened.

[BigbadB]

And since I pretty much own this entire page of this historic thread, I'll add two more cents right here:

 

Hendry's biggest problem is evaluating talent and recognizing where the actual holes in the line up are.

 

I don't think there was a member of NSBB who couldn't recognize that Jeromy Burnitz would be a bust in a Cub uniform. Anyone who would look at what a guy did in Colorado the previous year and assume that he could duplicate those numbers outside of Coors is quite possibly a moron.

 

And I almost have to say the same thing about anyone who is satisfied with Ryan Theriot at SS but feels like we need an improvement for DeRosa at 2b. Hendry signs a guy for 3 years to be his everyday 2b and a year later is looking to replace the guy he signed for 3 years. Meanwhile, over at SS, a guy who makes league minimum and provides league minimum offensive production has his job handed to him on a silver platter.

 

If Jim spent half of the amount of time he has spent on trying to get Brian Roberts, he probably could have gotten himself a SS that could provide twice the production that Theriot provides. And Roberts cannot provide twice the production that DeRosa provides.

 

And if he really is willing to cough up all this talent and dough for salary rejects like Ramon Hernandez and/or Jay Payton just so he can get his prize, why didn't he just swing a deal for a pitcher?

 

And just how stupid was it to ever take EPatt away from 2b and stick him in the outfield? The guy is doing his time in the minors. That's where you learn to play the game. Who is it hurting if he makes an error here and there. Mistakes build character. Practice makes perfect.

[CubColtPacer]

Sammy Sosa for Jerry Hairston, Dave Crouthers, Mike Fontenot and basically paid for Sammy's entire salary.

 

The Cubs saved 2 million dollars even after factoring in Burnitz's salary, and as mediocre as Burnitz was the Cubs still upgraded quite a bit in RF from what Sammy was like that year. Burnitz was 27 points better in OBP, 59 points better in SLG, and played better defense. That ended up being a good deal for the Cubs.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. The Cubs devalued Sosa to nothing more than a couple of minor league throw ins while picking up most of his salary to play for someone else. It didn't have to become public knowledge that Sosa decided to leave a few innings early. Teams would have been much more interested in Sosa if the bad rep wasn't following him around at the end of that year.

 

 

I disagree that the reputation had much to do with it at all. It's as Bruce said with the Marquis situation. People in other organizations don't really care. If they feel a player who is talented can help the club, they'll make the trade He moves to a new club, and it's forgotten within 2 weeks. Unless there's something major that happens, there's very little that you can do to devalue a player in the media.

 

Besides, the Sosa situation had died down nationally by the time he was traded. The camera incident was found out on the 7th of October. He wasn't traded until February 2nd. The negative media attention made no impact on what other teams would offer IMO. It may have made a difference on if Hendry was desperate to move him, but he waited long enough to see all the offers, and then he took the best offer. If clubs really thought that Sosa had something left in the tank, they wouldn't have passed him up just because of 1 incident that kept the nations attention for a week and then they moved on. History has proven that the best offer was better than keeping him.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Corey Patterson for Carlos Perez and Nate Spears?

Farnsworth for Novoaa and...What one crappy lefty?

Scott Moore and Bo Flowers

[BigbadB]

Its not really fair to try and devalue any trade that might make Hendry look somewhat better by citing rumors and/or innuendo that surrounded the situation at the time. First of all, no one knows what really happened, who was really available, and to what extent any of them was a salary dump. More importantly, even if it was a salary dump, Hendry, not any other general manager, was the one who took on the salary. You need to take the career as a whole, not just a part of it. If not, you fall into the same trap that those who say "Ryan Theriot was a solid player last year if you take out his September" do.

 

I don't think Hendry's made a good deal since Garciaparra deal, but I'll give him credit for being the one to get Lee and Ramirez, especially because I certainly doubted Ramirez (and over-valued Bobby Hill) when the deal happened.

 

Hendry was one of the few GM's who had money to spend during that time frame. From '99 to '02, salaries and inflated contracts went crazy and DLee was one of them. I recall sometime in 2002 that there was a deal in place for Lee to go to Baltimore, but the deal fell through because Florida wouldn't pick up part of the contract. Lee was very much on the market.

 

Florida practically dumped their whole team after their trip to the World Series, minus Cabrera and a few other cheap players.

 

Just about every team in baseball was strapped with at least 1 really bad contract during that time. Hendry pawned his off on LA and the Trib has opened up the wallet a little more every year he's been the GM and he really doesn't have a whole lot to show for it.

 

He's made some good trades. I won't deny that. But, the full body of work leaves A LOT to be desired.

[Roast]

Corey Patterson for Carlos Perez and Nate Spears?

Farnsworth for Novoaa and...What one crappy lefty?

Scott Moore and Bo Flowers

I was thinking andy pratt was in this deal for some reason. That was Juan cruz.

 

weird.

[WilcoFan]

Its not really fair to try and devalue any trade that might make Hendry look somewhat better by citing rumors and/or innuendo that surrounded the situation at the time. First of all, no one knows what really happened, who was really available, and to what extent any of them was a salary dump. More importantly, even if it was a salary dump, Hendry, not any other general manager, was the one who took on the salary. You need to take the career as a whole, not just a part of it. If not, you fall into the same trap that those who say "Ryan Theriot was a solid player last year if you take out his September" do.

 

I don't think Hendry's made a good deal since Garciaparra deal, but I'll give him credit for being the one to get Lee and Ramirez, especially because I certainly doubted Ramirez (and over-valued Bobby Hill) when the deal happened.

 

Hendry was one of the few GM's who had money to spend during that time frame. From '99 to '02, salaries and inflated contracts went crazy and DLee was one of them. I recall sometime in 2002 that there was a deal in place for Lee to go to Baltimore, but the deal fell through because Florida wouldn't pick up part of the contract. Lee was very much on the market.

 

Florida practically dumped their whole team after their trip to the World Series, minus Cabrera and a few other cheap players.

 

Just about every team in baseball was strapped with at least 1 really bad contract during that time. Hendry pawned his off on LA and the Trib has opened up the wallet a little more every year he's been the GM and he really doesn't have a whole lot to show for it.

 

He's made some good trades. I won't deny that. But, the full body of work leaves A LOT to be desired.

 

Regardless, Hendry is the one that pulled the deal off-he took the risk on the "overpaid" Lee, and it paid off. Baltimore didn't. The Yankees (who decided on Jason Giambi) didn't. The Red Sox didn't. The Cubs did. You can't ignore good deals because, in hindsight, they may seem like they fell in a guy's lap. There are myriad deals that seem a lot more one-sided with 20/20 hindsight.

 

Like I wrote above, I don't think Hendry's made a good trade since the Nomar deal. I don't want him as the GM anymore, and the moment the new owner takes over, I'll be happy when he's fired. However, I can't begrudge him the good deals he did make.

[CubColtPacer]

And since I pretty much own this entire page of this historic thread, I'll add two more cents right here:

And you've made a lot of good points on this page.

 

Hendry's biggest problem is evaluating talent and recognizing where the actual holes in the line up are.

I like his ability to evaluate talent. There's a reason he was good at being a scouting director. Coveting Barrett and then flipping him right before he fell off a cliff is a good example. Ramirez and Lee have both developed further as Cubs. For the most part, he is just not going to trade away talent. All the minor leaguers that went to other organizations busted.

 

Where Hendry is not good, however, is 1) staying away from his love of versatile, scrappy players and 2) understanding trade value and contracts. Minor leaguers who Hendry correctly realizes will bust likely still had higher trade value than Hendry traded them for. He just still doesn't quite understand how to work the system to his full advantage.

 

I don't think there was a member of NSBB who couldn't recognize that Jeromy Burnitz would be a bust in a Cub uniform. Anyone who would look at what a guy did in Colorado the previous year and assume that he could duplicate those numbers outside of Coors is quite possibly a moron.

 

I wouldn't call Burnitz a bust. He wasn't what the Cubs needed, sure. But he was a mediocre outfielder getting paid mediocre money. If the Cubs had made a major upgrade somewhere else, nobody would be worried about Burnitz. But they didn't, and so Burnitz gets unfairly labeled a bust.

 

And I almost have to say the same thing about anyone who is satisfied with Ryan Theriot at SS but feels like we need an improvement for DeRosa at 2b. Hendry signs a guy for 3 years to be his everyday 2b and a year later is looking to replace the guy he signed for 3 years. Meanwhile, over at SS, a guy who makes league minimum and provides league minimum offensive production has his job handed to him on a silver platter.

 

If Jim spent half of the amount of time he has spent on trying to get Brian Roberts, he probably could have gotten himself a SS that could provide twice the production that Theriot provides. And Roberts cannot provide twice the production that DeRosa provides.

 

Agreed, and that references my comments above. Hendry's ability to find DeRosa was great, and shows his ability to find talent in unlikely places. His love of players like Theriot, and his love of DeRosa's versatility has led to the Roberts speculation rather than possible SS speculation, which becomes his mistake.

 

And if he really is willing to cough up all this talent and dough for salary rejects like Ramon Hernandez and/or Jay Payton just so he can get his prize, why didn't he just swing a deal for a pitcher?

 

The Hernandez thing is ridiculous and both fanbases are saying so. Several of the reports lately have said that the Cubs are only willing to take on Payton if the Orioles will take Marquis. I don't think there's much factual evidence of a mistake here.

 

And just how stupid was it to ever take EPatt away from 2b and stick him in the outfield? The guy is doing his time in the minors. That's where you learn to play the game. Who is it hurting if he makes an error here and there. Mistakes build character. Practice makes perfect.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the EPatt decision, but sometimes you have to cut your losses. Should Harvey stay a hitter because practice makes perfect, and not switch to the mound? If they decide that his defense was bad enough that his only future was as a good hitting utility player and that no amount of practice would make it better, then they made the right decision. I haven't seen him enough nor am I skilled enough to make that determination. I can say that IMO he probably isn't going to get much better defensively than he is now. IMO if you haven't become at least competent at second after several years of playing there, another year or two of practice isn't going to really help matters. I just don't know if his level of defense is really bad enough to justify moving him off the position or not.

[shnsajax]

Great lets talk about Hendry's trade history on this thread and make it even longer.

[Post Count Padder]

Great lets talk about Hendry's trade history on this thread and make it even longer.

Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton for Jose Hernandez, Bobby Hill, and Matt Bruback

 

Todd Hundley and Chad Hermanson for Eric Karros and Mark Grudzielanek

 

That is all.

[BigbadB]

I don't necessarily agree with the EPatt decision, but sometimes you have to cut your losses. Should Harvey stay a hitter because practice makes perfect, and not switch to the mound? If they decide that his defense was bad enough that his only future was as a good hitting utility player and that no amount of practice would make it better, then they made the right decision. I haven't seen him enough nor am I skilled enough to make that determination. I can say that IMO he probably isn't going to get much better defensively than he is now. IMO if you haven't become at least competent at second after several years of playing there, another year or two of practice isn't going to really help matters. I just don't know if his level of defense is really bad enough to justify moving him off the position or not.

 

I just think it was a poor choice to give up on him at 2b so quickly. Harvey is a whole new ballgame. If you can't hit, it doesn't matter what position you play.

 

It's possible that Patterson is at a point where his defense won't improve. But, how bad could it really be? Derrek Lee is so good at 1b that he can make an average defender look good. And the Cubs have so many good defenders on this current team that it's a bit easier to hide a terrible defender.

 

So, if DeRosa isn't an everyday starter at this point in his career, why not let Patterson grab some starts at 2nd? Both would or could be decent #2 hitters in the line up. Save the money to be spent on Roberts for a deadline or sooner deal for a SS. Theriot becomes the platoon partner for Pie if you really have to have one.

 

Heck, Hendry probably could have gotten Towers to cave on Greene if he pestered Towers half as much as he's pestered MacPhail.