MVP /= Most overlooked - Why do people do this???

[David]

It seems like every time a conversation starts about who a team's MVP is, people love to bring up the most overlooked or seemingly undervalued player rather than the player who has actually been most valuable. They'll say things like, "I'll tell you what, David Eckstein is MY MVP." Usually this tends to happen most with the "gritty" guys. It drives me absolutely nuts. You can't argue with these people either.

 

 

Hell, it happened in last year's World Series, didn't it? Scott Rolen should have won it. Hell, even Yadier Molina out-hit Eckstein.

 

Why???

 

 

 

Case in point, Mike Murphy on the Score continues to tout Theriot as his Cubs MVP, Jesse Rogers called DeRosa his. These guys have been solid contributors, no doubt, and they aren't big names. That doesn't make them more valuable than players that have been far more productive.

 

I mean, are you joking? Could anybody with a brain really think that Ryan Theriot means more to this team than any of Aramis, Lee, or Soriano mean?

 

Oh, and Murph called Marmol his pitching MVP. Again, a great contributor. But losing Lilly would hurt us a lot more. Hell, losing any starter would hurt the team more than losing a dominant setup man.

 

 

They should just say, "Ryan Theriot is my overlooked contributor."

 

Calling him MVP is just laughable hyperbole and it's absurd.

 

/semi-rant

Edited September 25, 2007 by David

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Yeah, I've heard quite a few people on the score(combo of hosts/callers) tout Theriot as MVP. To suggest this is simply [expletive]. No seriously, if you think Theriot is the Cubs MVP, you should probably be riding the shortbus somewhere.

[David]

Yeah, I've heard quite a few people on the score(combo of hosts/callers) tout Theriot as MVP. To suggest this is simply [expletive]. No seriously, if you think Theriot is the Cubs MVP, you should probably be riding the shortbus somewhere.

 

 

Basically.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

most valuable does not automatically mean most productive, not that I agree with Theriot as team MVP by any means

[David]

most valuable does not automatically mean most productive, not that I agree with Theriot as team MVP by any means

 

Give me an example of when a player is somehow more valuable than what he produces. For the sake of discussion...not being argumentative.

[Rob]

Aramis is the MVP, followed fairly closely by Lee and Soriano, then Lilly and Zambrano.

[CubinNY]

Aramis is the MVP, followed fairly closely by Lee and Soriano, then Lilly and Zambrano.

Lilly and it isn't even close, to me.

[jersey cubs fan]

most valuable does not automatically mean most productive, not that I agree with Theriot as team MVP by any means

 

Give me an example of when a player is somehow more valuable than what he produces. For the sake of discussion...not being argumentative.

 

Depending on how you define value, the most valuable player could be the most cost effectively productive player.

 

 

Although I would tend to agree with your general theme. I'll take most productive over most grittiest.

[David]

most valuable does not automatically mean most productive, not that I agree with Theriot as team MVP by any means

 

Give me an example of when a player is somehow more valuable than what he produces. For the sake of discussion...not being argumentative.

 

Depending on how you define value, the most valuable player could be the most cost effectively productive player.

 

 

Although I would tend to agree with your general theme. I'll take most productive over most grittiest.

 

That's a valid and interesting point.

 

I'm not sure who the MVP in terms of cost-effective value would be on the Cubs, either. Maybe Rich Hill? Theriot certainly comes into the team picture on this one.

[Peoriaman]

I agree that fans/media tend to take a guy who has outperformed and call him the MVP. That is foolish.

 

I do think Theriot has been more valuable than his stats.

[AllStarMe]

most valuable does not automatically mean most productive, not that I agree with Theriot as team MVP by any means

 

Give me an example of when a player is somehow more valuable than what he produces. For the sake of discussion...not being argumentative.

 

Depending on how you define value, the most valuable player could be the most cost effectively productive player.

 

 

Although I would tend to agree with your general theme. I'll take most productive over most grittiest.

 

That's a valid and interesting point.

 

I'm not sure who the MVP in terms of cost-effective value would be on the Cubs, either. Maybe Rich Hill? Theriot certainly comes into the team picture on this one.

 

Cost-effectiveness? It's gotta be Marmol for me.

 

And while I wasn't sold on the Derosa signing at first, I think he's earned every cent of his contract in his first season with the Cubs. He's solid all over the field, has made a few web gem plays, he's got some pop and that .375 OBP is surpassing my expectations. I'm not saying MVP, but I think he's been an integral part of this year's success, perhaps more than a straight read of his numbers might indicate.

[Peoriaman]

agree on DeRosa. His defense has surprised me--he has been very, very solid.

[David]

Hill and Marmol are even with 11 win shares, so either one would go.

 

 

Theriot has 12. Is he the cost effectiveness MVP?

[jersey cubs fan]

Cost-effectiveness? It's gotta be Marmol for me.

 

And while I wasn't sold on the Derosa signing at first, I think he's earned every cent of his contract in his first season with the Cubs. He's solid all over the field, has made a few web gem plays, he's got some pop and that .375 OBP is surpassing my expectations. I'm not saying MVP, but I think he's been an integral part of this year's success, perhaps more than a straight read of his numbers might indicate.

 

I would think Rich Hill beats out Marmol for cost effective value to this team. DeRosa has certainly lived up to his contract, but his numbers are essentially the same as Murton's. His salary is 6.6 times that of Murton. On a strict cost effectiveness basis, his playing time and defensive position would have to offset that difference. I'm not sure it does.

 

Lee is the most expensive player on the team this year, but I think his production has offset most of that. I guess Blanco and Jones are probably the least cost effective player on the team, depending on how you calculate Barrett into the equation.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

most valuable does not automatically mean most productive, not that I agree with Theriot as team MVP by any means

 

Give me an example of when a player is somehow more valuable than what he produces. For the sake of discussion...not being argumentative.

 

This is purely hypothetical, but suppose Soriano, Ramirez, and Lee have seasons typical of their career norms with a supporting cast eerily similar to the previous season in which there was a 15 game improvement in wins. The biggest statistical difference happens to be the addition of DeRosa, who puts up an ERA+ around 105 while his career number is closer to 90 and also provides a defensive upgrade at his position. An argument for DeRosa as MVP under this scenario isn't ludicrous.

[Rob]

Aramis is the MVP, followed fairly closely by Lee and Soriano, then Lilly and Zambrano.

Lilly and it isn't even close, to me.

 

Just for giggles...

 

WARP3 scores.

 

Ramirez - 9.4

Soriano - 8.5

Lee - 8.3

Zambrano - 7.1

Lilly - 5.9

 

While Lilly has been a slightly more effective pitcher, don't forget that Z has thrown a few more innings, fields the position better, and hits significantly better.

[jersey cubs fan]

most valuable does not automatically mean most productive, not that I agree with Theriot as team MVP by any means

 

Give me an example of when a player is somehow more valuable than what he produces. For the sake of discussion...not being argumentative.

 

This is purely hypothetical, but suppose Soriano, Ramirez, and Lee have seasons typical of their career norms with a supporting cast eerily similar to the previous season in which there was a 15 game improvement in wins. The biggest statistical difference happens to be the addition of DeRosa, who puts up an ERA+ around 105 while his career number is closer to 90 and also provides a defensive upgrade at his position. An argument for DeRosa as MVP under this scenario isn't ludicrous.

 

I think it is ludicrous. Simply outperforming career norms doesn't qualify as a most valuable season.

[CubColtPacer]

DeRosa is a tough one to get a grip on how much value he actually has to the club.

 

One thing that he has provided that has been huge for the club is that his versatility allows the club so much flexibility on lineups and roster moves. If Aramis goes on the DL, you can call up a 3B or a 2B. If an oufielder goes down, you can call up an OF or a 2B. If DeRosa isn't here, Theriot probably doesn't get the chance to become the everyday SS (because they wouldn't be able to lock Theriot down to one position). The Cubs have so many players who have huge platoon splits that moving DeRosa around allows Lou to take advantage of matchups.

 

Factor in an above average bat at second base, very good defense at second (great defense at third, average defense in right and at first), and someone who handles the bat well at the plate (good fundamental guy who is very good at laying down bunts or being a situational hitter, which adds a little bit of value) and DeRosa has been quite the pickup.

 

Does that make him more valuable than Soriano, Lee, or Ramirez? I honestly don't know. DeRosa has helped inflate other people's numbers by his flexibility which helps Lou put the best lineup on the field everyday, but it's really hard to know if that makes up for 100 points of OPS or not.

[NewUserName]

When people say things like this I usually say, "You can have your team of Theriots and I will take my team of ARams and we will see who wins more"

 

 

It is pretty silly that people make these sort of claims. The one thing I think should be pointed out though, was how bad was our SS production the last few years that Theriot is considered a team MVP.

[CubinNY]

When people say things like this I usually say, "You can have your team of Theriots and I will take my team of ARams and we will see who wins more"

 

 

It is pretty silly that people make these sort of claims. The one thing I think should be pointed out though, was how bad was our SS production the last few years that Theriot is considered a team MVP.

What is silly is that anyone would consider Theriot an MVP. SS production in the past is entirely beside the point.

 

The Cubs have played decent team baseball. They are a good team without any real outstanding performances from anyone. Each player has contributed a little.

[Soul]

I, too, wish people would separate their "surprise" player (which is what Theriot really is -- he gave us surprise production for awhile from a position where we thought we would get nothing) from the guy who really produces the most or makes the biggest difference.

 

I understand it's exciting to watch a player do decently out of "nowhere," but let's make another category for those guys and give the big time producers the MVP.

 

For me it's ARam this year.

[UK1679666180]

Derosa's ability to play several positions has added extra value over his production. Him playing in RF allowed a hot Fontenot to stick at 2B while Izturis gets traded. Then, once Fontenot cooled off and Murton/Floyd started hitting well in RF, shoftong Jones to CF, he shifted to 2B. When Ramirezwent down, it allowed them to shift him to 3B without bringing in a replacement level player.

[TruffleShuffle]

It seems like every time a conversation starts about who a team's MVP is, people love to bring up the most overlooked or seemingly undervalued player rather than the player who has actually been most valuable. They'll say things like, "I'll tell you what, David Eckstein is MY MVP." Usually this tends to happen most with the white guys. It drives me absolutely nuts. You can't argue with these people either.

 

fixed

[bhogg]

Who would win in a fight between Ditka and TheRiot?

 

Ditka and Soto?

 

Ditka and a tornado?

 

 

I with you guys -- ARam is the MVP for the cubs. If he hadn't lost some time due to injury, the numbnuts of ESPN would be talking about ARam as a league MVP candidate.

[Yestheydo]

Well, he's not a player but I'm convinced Piniella has made more of a difference than anyone else by themselves.

 

I think Zambrano is the heart and soul of this team, for better or for worse.