Cubs have more talent than Brewers...

[BigbadB]

The further out we go the more the talent spectrum shines on the Brewers side of the ledger.

 

IF (big if) Milwaukee pays to keep their star young talent.

[NewUserName]

I have a hard time subjectively saying that the Cubs are equal to the Brewers in talent going into the future. Most of what I am reading in this discussion is the Cubs fans pinning there hopes on pitching and defense.

 

Most of the defensive advantage seems to be at 3rd base and 1st base. Not exactly the key defensive positions on the field. I think that Braun though can improve his defense(like ARam). The Cubs are better in CF defensively but is it really that much?

 

Offensively the only position that the Cubs are better is LF. If the Brewers were to pick up a RHed hitting LFer better than Mench, the Brewers would probably get equal production there also. So offensively you would have to say the Brewers are quite a bit better.

 

So pitching. I am not certain going into the future how to lineup the starters as who should be 1-5 for each team so I will just list potential obvious starters for next year.

 

Brewers. Sheets, Guardo, Suppan, Bush, Parra, Villenuava and Capuano

Cubs. Z, Lily, Hill, Marquis, Marshall and Gallagher

This can change of course. Looking at the Top 6 going into next year I have a hard time saying the Cubs are significantly better here. Not nearly as easy as it is to say that the Brewers offense is better than the Cubs.

 

Personally I would rather be in the Brewers shoes. Not only do they seem more talented. They also obviously have a better player development system. Any good team that wants to sustain success has to be good at developing players. I think by 2009 the Brewers are going to be significantly better than the Cubs, unless the Cubs significantly increase their payroll.

[Soul]

Pitching is the key to this question and the Cubs clearly have the better pitching. Our 2-5 is better than the Brewers 2-5. Our Aces Zambrano and Sheets are equal, only because Sheets gets injured so much.

 

Honestly though the Cubs offensively I think have a pretty bright future. Theriot has already proved he can be a bat 285 with an obp around 340 OBP, which is excellent from SS. Then all we need to do is show trust in Soto, Pie, and Patterson.

 

Their offense more than makes up for the pitching difference, IMO. They've been losing games on the road because that's what young teams do. Once they figure out how to win on the road, they're a 95 win ballclub despite pitching issues, which will likely mitigate themselves as Sheets comes back and a few of their younger guys get more experience.

 

The difference in offense is so completely overwhelming it's ridiculous.

 

That difference in offense has translated into 48 runs over the course of the season. The Brewers are 5th in the NL in runs while the Cubs are 8th. The Brewers are an easily better offensive team, but they are no juggernaut on offense. They've had their stretches where they have struggled offensively as well (for example, in August the Cubs as well documented were 15th in the NL in runs/game. The Brewers were 14th. In July, the Cubs were 8th in runs/game while the Brewers were 12th.)

 

So basically, while the Cubs have been being called out for their lack of offense the last couple months especially (which is completely justified), the Brewers have scored a total of 13 more runs since July 1st. They've hit a lot more home runs, but they haven't scored a lot more than the Cubs.

 

As far as pure talent, the Cubs have better talent on offense then they've shown, and the Brewers have better talent in their pitching staff then they've shown. I think the Cubs have a slight edge thanks to their bullpen and defense, but the difference is not very large.

 

It's closer offensively than I would expect, but there's still a clear edge for the Crew, and I'm guessing the margin will widen in September.

 

I still give the edge to the Crew. Maybe the grass just looks greener to me, I don't know. I view them as a better ballclub, and we're hanging in there which is good......but questionable whether it will continue.

 

Hope I'm wrong.

[TruffleShuffle]

Most of the defensive advantage seems to be at 3rd base and 1st base. Not exactly the key defensive positions on the field.

 

I'd agree that 1B isn't that important, but 3B is a pretty important position on the diamond. And Braun hasn't just been bad, he's been atrocious. His FP is below .900!! His FRAA is -15, whereas Ramirez is at an excellent 16. So even though Braun has been more productive offensively this year, the difference in their defense is really large.

[VanceJergins]

I think the Cubs offense could improve quite a bit by next year. We have had awful production from RF, CF, and C, along with have Izturis playing a lot early on. If we can get a decent RF for the 5 spot and if Pie and Soto perform adequately, I think we'll have a good lineup.

 

Soriano

Theriot

Lee

Ramirez

RF

Derosa/Patterson

Pie

Soto

 

We also have a pretty solid foundation for the rotation. Hopefully this is Z's worst year, Lilly and Hill should stay solid, Then we have Marquis, Marshall, Gallagher, maybe Guzman, and a slight chance of Prior to finish out the rotation. Our bullpen should also be pretty solid for a few more years, especially if a couple of Pignatiello, Petrick, Wood, Hart can pan out.

 

I know I broke the rules and didn't stick with a stagnant roster, but whatever.

[BigbadB]

Most of the defensive advantage seems to be at 3rd base and 1st base. Not exactly the key defensive positions on the field.

 

Can I get a shout out for the great defensive prowess of Fred McGriff, who singlehandedly proved to the world how valuable good defense at 1b really can be?

[Yestheydo]

I love the Cubs and most of their players. But if we could swap 40 man rosters straight up with the Brewers I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[cubweiser03]

Braun and Fielder are about as good as it gets for them. I mean really are these guys going to do this year in and year out? I see it more likely that they wont than if they will. They are very good players, dont get me wrong, but the numbers they are putting up now are freaking awesome.

Keeping with that, with 30 or so games left who is more likely to get hotter than how they are currently playing: Lee/Soriano/Aram or Braun and Fielder? If Fielder and Braun get any hotter the Sun will explode. Brauns numbers are incredibly average driven. The Cubs have it in them to go on a nice run in the next month. Whether they do it or not remains to be seen.

[SouthSideRyan]

Fielder will probably do this for another 5 years. Braun probably not, though he is rather good.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

Well I tend to think I'm more harsh on the cubs the most cub fans. With that said. The pitching really stands out for me. Z and sheets are a push but sheets is one of the best pitchers healthy in MLB. Lily is much better than suppan. Hill is much better than everyone but the two aces. Parra and gallardo are great prospects but marshall and Gallagher are right there with them. The bullpen is a blowout with marmol dempster howry.

 

I don't think there is a gap at ss cf and rf talent wise. They win at c right now but in three years maybe not. Fielder is amazing. Hart is outstanding.

 

Braun is having a legendary year. But 6 years ago there was a 23 year old 3b for the pirates that had 35 homeruns 110 plus rbis and a fielding percentage of 940. He now plays for the cubs and has developed into one of the best 3b in MLB. Ram even in his worst year defensively never dipped under 920 in fielding percentage. Braun has been equally as bad defensively as he has been great offensively.

 

When I first read the question I said brewers hands down but then I actually started looking at it. Offensively the brewers best players are at the same position as the cubs. If we look five years down the road braun fielder and hart will be in their prime but soriano lee and ram will be old and past their prime. That's where the brewers win. However the gap is not wide talent wise like I thought.

[WarningtrackPower]

It's really easy for the analysts to go with the big-name expensive players, but any Cubs fan, if he's being honest with himself, would want to have the Brewers roster for the next few years.

[Skyballer]

It's really easy for the analysts to go with the big-name expensive players, but any Cubs fan, if he's being honest with himself, would want to have the Brewers roster for the next few years.

Welcome :!:

[WarningtrackPower]

It's really easy for the analysts to go with the big-name expensive players, but any Cubs fan, if he's being honest with himself, would want to have the Brewers roster for the next few years.

Welcome :!:

 

As Elvis would say - thangyewverrymuch!

[Skyballer]

It's really easy for the analysts to go with the big-name expensive players, but any Cubs fan, if he's being honest with himself, would want to have the Brewers roster for the next few years.

Welcome :!:

 

As Elvis would say - thangyewverrymuch!

urwelcomeverymuch lol

[Little Slide Rooter]

While the offenses are both close, and inconsistant, the Cubs pitching is far superior, and thats the type of thing that will make or break a playoff run, especially when the Cubs are against NL Central garbage and the Marlins the rest of the way.

[Ender]

While the offenses are both close, and inconsistant, the Cubs pitching is far superior, and thats the type of thing that will make or break a playoff run, especially when the Cubs are against NL Central garbage and the Marlins the rest of the way.

 

I don't really agree with this, the Cubs defense is far superior, I don't think the pitching is really better.

 

Sheets >= Zambrano (unless Z turns things around in a hurry at least)

Gallardo = Hill

Villaneuva very well could = Lilly

Bush >= Marquis

Suppan >= Trachsel

 

The Cubs ERA will be better because of fielding but I don't think the actual pitching is much better. Cordero, Turnbow, Shouse, Linebrink match up decently with the top end of the Cubs bullpen too.

 

A lot of that Brewer ERA was built by Capuano and Vargas who have been upgraded at this point.

[XZero771679666304]

While the offenses are both close, and inconsistant, the Cubs pitching is far superior, and thats the type of thing that will make or break a playoff run, especially when the Cubs are against NL Central garbage and the Marlins the rest of the way.

 

I don't really agree with this, the Cubs defense is far superior, I don't think the pitching is really better.

 

Sheets >= Zambrano (unless Z turns things around in a hurry at least)

Gallardo = Hill

Villaneuva very well could = Lilly

Bush >= Marquis

Suppan >= Trachsel

 

The Cubs ERA will be better because of fielding but I don't think the actual pitching is much better. Cordero, Turnbow, Shouse, Linebrink match up decently with the top end of the Cubs bullpen too.

 

A lot of that Brewer ERA was built by Capuano and Vargas who have been upgraded at this point.

 

Marshall > Bush

Marquis >= Soupcan

 

Marshall is getting a break, and has not been replaced.

 

And then there's Guzman.

 

And don't even try with the bullpen. Not even close.

 

The fact that Melvin has spent much of the past couple months trying in vain to fix that mess says enough.

[apete6]

While the offenses are both close, and inconsistant, the Cubs pitching is far superior, and thats the type of thing that will make or break a playoff run, especially when the Cubs are against NL Central garbage and the Marlins the rest of the way.

 

I don't really agree with this, the Cubs defense is far superior, I don't think the pitching is really better.

 

Sheets >= Zambrano (unless Z turns things around in a hurry at least)

Gallardo = Hill

Villaneuva very well could = Lilly

Bush >= Marquis

Suppan >= Trachsel

 

The Cubs ERA will be better because of fielding but I don't think the actual pitching is much better. Cordero, Turnbow, Shouse, Linebrink match up decently with the top end of the Cubs bullpen too.

 

A lot of that Brewer ERA was built by Capuano and Vargas who have been upgraded at this point.

 

Lilly >>>Villanueva

Marquis>>>Bush

Suppan=Marshall/Trachsel

[TruffleShuffle]

Gallardo = Hill

Villaneuva very well could = Lilly

 

Are we talking about what is the case right now? If so, Gallardo is certainly not as good as Hill, and Villanueva is nowhere close to Lilly. If we're talking about potential then I guess we can also say that Pie >= Corey Hart too.

[Ender]

Gallardo = Hill

Villaneuva very well could = Lilly

 

Are we talking about what is the case right now? If so, Gallardo is certainly not as good as Hill, and Villanueva is nowhere close to Lilly. If we're talking about potential then I guess we can also say that Pie >= Corey Hart too.

 

Gallardo has a career 103 ERA+, Hill has a 104 ERA+ and Gallardo's is extremely heavily influenced by one bad start in Colorado.

 

Lilly is career 102 ERA+, Villaneuva is career 106. I mean so far in their short careers stats support them being pretty even and from a pure potential standpoint a strong case can be made for them being better.

[soccer10k]

Gallardo = Hill

Villaneuva very well could = Lilly

 

Are we talking about what is the case right now? If so, Gallardo is certainly not as good as Hill, and Villanueva is nowhere close to Lilly. If we're talking about potential then I guess we can also say that Pie >= Corey Hart too.

 

Gallardo has a career 103 ERA+, Hill has a 104 ERA+ and Gallardo's is extremely heavily influenced by one bad start in Colorado.

 

He also gave up 7 ER against St. Louis and 5 ER in SF.

 

And Rich Hill's career ERA+ is highly influenced by 40ish innings in 2005 and his first four starts of 2006 combined.

[soccer10k]

While the offenses are both close, and inconsistant, the Cubs pitching is far superior, and thats the type of thing that will make or break a playoff run, especially when the Cubs are against NL Central garbage and the Marlins the rest of the way.

 

Those Marlins sure do suck, eh.

 

What's that? They swept the Cubs at Wrigley earlier this year?

 

Well I'll be damned.

[TruffleShuffle]

Gallardo = Hill

Villaneuva very well could = Lilly

 

Are we talking about what is the case right now? If so, Gallardo is certainly not as good as Hill, and Villanueva is nowhere close to Lilly. If we're talking about potential then I guess we can also say that Pie >= Corey Hart too.

 

Gallardo has a career 103 ERA+, Hill has a 104 ERA+ and Gallardo's is extremely heavily influenced by one bad start in Colorado.

 

He also gave up 7 ER against St. Louis and 5 ER in SF.

 

And Rich Hill's career ERA+ is highly influenced by 40ish innings in 2005 and his first four starts of 2006 combined.

 

Yeah, Hill's ERA+ the second half of last year (after the call up) was probalby about 130 and this year it's 118. He's pitched better than Gallardo this year and he's a better pitcher than Gallardo, at least for right now. In the future, I'd probably still take Rich, but I'm biased.