we should do this

[CubinNY]

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

-Murton is clearly better than Floyd against lefties. DeRosa should be at 2B, with Murton RF against lefties. It's beyond stupid to delay this.

 

-Pie is not likely to perform any worse offensively than Pagan or Jones and is far better defensively than either. He's always adjusted well after moving up a level, and I don't see why he wouldn't do so again, given time.

 

-Cedeno is a good bet to be better than Izturis and certainly isn't likely to be worse.

 

The bottom line is none of these moves will make the Cubs worse, and all have a decent chance to actually make them better. Saying you can't give these guys a shot and keep winning is beyond absurd. It's just plain wrong.

 

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

 

Are you kidding? You are kidding? I guess if a guy doesn't "produce" immediately they should be gotten rid of. They should have shelved Soriano a long time ago by that logic.

 

It is really beyond my ability to understand where you get your opinon from. Pie was given a "chance"? Murton was given a "chance"? Cendeno performed badly last year, but there is some adjustment time.

 

What is the cut off so we can have a frame of reference. The player needs to produce in his first 20 ABs? After that he should be given a positon no matter what. Pagan is just terrible. I can't think of another MLB team that he would play for.

[bring stone back]

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

 

All lineup decisions should be based on reasonable expectations of what you think will happen. Making a decision based on 3 weeks of comparisons from a month or two ago is stupid.

 

I'm not making comparisons based on 3 weeks. Pie and Cedeno have been overwhelmed every time they've been up. Consistently overwhelmed. This time will be different, right? If not - it will certainly be the next time they're called up, right?

 

Murton on the other hand has had success and I'd like for him to come up but I'd like for him to get more AB's in Iowa first and learn how to play right field, too.

[fromthestretch]

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

-Murton is clearly better than Floyd against lefties. DeRosa should be at 2B, with Murton RF against lefties. It's beyond stupid to delay this.

 

-Pie is not likely to perform any worse offensively than Pagan or Jones and is far better defensively than either. He's always adjusted well after moving up a level, and I don't see why he wouldn't do so again, given time.

 

-Cedeno is a good bet to be better than Izturis and certainly isn't likely to be worse.

 

The bottom line is none of these moves will make the Cubs worse, and all have a decent chance to actually make them better. Saying you can't give these guys a shot and keep winning is beyond absurd. It's just plain wrong.

 

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

 

How exactly is 35 plate appearances over the course of a month considered an oppontunity? That's what Cedeno got in April (plus one day in May).

[jersey cubs fan]

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

 

All lineup decisions should be based on reasonable expectations of what you think will happen. Making a decision based on 3 weeks of comparisons from a month or two ago is stupid.

 

I'm not making comparisons based on 3 weeks. Pie and Cedeno have been overwhelmed every time they've been up.

 

That's simply not true.

[bring stone back]

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

-Murton is clearly better than Floyd against lefties. DeRosa should be at 2B, with Murton RF against lefties. It's beyond stupid to delay this.

 

-Pie is not likely to perform any worse offensively than Pagan or Jones and is far better defensively than either. He's always adjusted well after moving up a level, and I don't see why he wouldn't do so again, given time.

 

-Cedeno is a good bet to be better than Izturis and certainly isn't likely to be worse.

 

The bottom line is none of these moves will make the Cubs worse, and all have a decent chance to actually make them better. Saying you can't give these guys a shot and keep winning is beyond absurd. It's just plain wrong.

 

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

 

Are you kidding? You are kidding? I guess if a guy doesn't "produce" immediately they should be gotten rid of. They should have shelved Soriano a long time ago by that logic.

 

It is really beyond my ability to understand where you get your opinon from. Pie was given a "chance"? Murton was given a "chance"? Cendeno performed badly last year, but there is some adjustment time.

 

What is the cut off so we can have a frame of reference. The player needs to produce in his first 20 ABs? After that he should be given a positon no matter what. Pagan is just terrible. I can't think of another MLB team that he would play for.

 

The perfect "have your cake and eat it, too" argument.

 

On the one hand the Cubs need to win now, the organization as a whole is so inept, etc....meanwhile let's make sure we bring up and give at bats to our young guys even though every single one of them was beaten out and outproduced by another option earlier in the year.

 

When Cedeno and Pie could barely make contact and were consistently overwhelmed by major league pitching we're supposed to be okay with that but when Jacque Jones has a bad first half he should not get another chance? I've seen Jacque Jones have consistent success in major league baseball. I have never seen Pie or Cedeno have any consistent success in major league baseball.

[soapy]

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

-Murton is clearly better than Floyd against lefties. DeRosa should be at 2B, with Murton RF against lefties. It's beyond stupid to delay this.

 

-Pie is not likely to perform any worse offensively than Pagan or Jones and is far better defensively than either. He's always adjusted well after moving up a level, and I don't see why he wouldn't do so again, given time.

 

-Cedeno is a good bet to be better than Izturis and certainly isn't likely to be worse.

 

The bottom line is none of these moves will make the Cubs worse, and all have a decent chance to actually make them better. Saying you can't give these guys a shot and keep winning is beyond absurd. It's just plain wrong.

 

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

 

Murton received a whopping 119 ABs this season in which he struggled. Despite that, he still vastly outperformed Floyd against lefties. It is almost a certainty that the Cubs would be better against LHP if they had Murton in RF. Or, to use your words, the fact is, Murton is better than Floyd against lefties. Instead, Lou and Hendry are looking to add a righty bat. ](*,)

 

Pagan has been terrible since a hot start. Without looking at the stats (I'm having trouble with ESPN's page right now), I'd say Pie's two week slump was no worse than the one Pagan is currently mired in. Cedeno got 31 AT-BATS in the majors. He admittidly struggled last year as well, but he was solid in 2005 and has dominated AAA this year. He's clearly worthy of a shot when compared with the alternative in Izturis.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

The Bears are winning with Kyle Orton at quarterback, thus, they should not look to upgrade that position.

[UBlink]

The Kendall trade was indeed slammed or viewed as a bad trade by the Cubs by MOST on the board.

 

I respectfully disagree. And I would add that several who responded negatively initially later changed their opinion to the majority neutral (meh, whatever, etc). Since I don't generally read the Poll forum, did they take a poll on the trade?

[fromthestretch]

When Cedeno and Pie could barely make contact and were consistently overwhelmed by major league pitching we're supposed to be okay with that but when Jacque Jones has a bad first half he should not get another chance? I've seen Jacque Jones have consistent success in major league baseball. I have never seen Pie or Cedeno have any consistent success in major league baseball.

 

I've seen Jacque Jones have back-to-back crappy years in MLB (most recently 2004 and 2005), and he's been awful this year with no signs of improvement. He's not worth keeping on this roster. Pie's numbers are actually comparable to Jones' this season, so why not give Pie a shot if you're willing to give it to Jones?

 

And again, Cedeno was never given a chance this year. Yes, he had a poor season last year. However, he's still a much better option than having Cesar Izturis on this roster.

[soapy]

 

On the one hand the Cubs need to win now, the organization as a whole is so inept, etc....meanwhile let's make sure we bring up and give at bats to our young guys even though every single one of them was beaten out and outproduced by another option earlier in the year.

 

Jesus, I wish people would stop making this ridiculous arguement. Winning and playing young guys are not mutually exclusive.

Edited July 18, 2007 by soapy

[Ding Dong Johnson]

a whole bunch of stuff

 

let me see if I have this right, you don't want to try improving because they're winning even though that improvement might help them win more? just because Ronny and Felix had rough spells doesn't mean they are not better suited for those positions NOW. we're getting no production from SS or CF right NOW, so what's the harm in plugging in a couple of guys who don't have much left to prove at AAA and let them work through their big league struggles? if they fail, we're in the same spot we are in right now (except with much better OF defense)

[jersey cubs fan]

Pagan has been terrible since a hot start. Without looking at the stats (I'm having trouble with ESPN's page right now), I'd say Pie's two week slump was no worse than the one Pagan is currently mired in.

 

Pagan in July: .258/.273/.387

 

He's 26 now, in the beginning of what should be his best years. But he's yet to show anything close to a sign that he's capable of providing decent production to justify starting in CF over any sustained length of time, in place of a guy like Felix Pie, who at leasts offers the hope of something greater than mediocrity.

 

That being said, I'm fine with Pagan staying on as 5th OF for as long as he's still a minimum wage player.

[NCCubFan]

Cedeno is definitely the best option and he'd probably already be here if it weren't for Izturis. That guy needs to be traded BAD. Today would be a good day for that. Yesterday would be even better.

Never having traded for him in the first place would have been best of all. :D

[soapy]

Pagan has been terrible since a hot start. Without looking at the stats (I'm having trouble with ESPN's page right now), I'd say Pie's two week slump was no worse than the one Pagan is currently mired in.

 

Pagan in July: .258/.273/.387

 

He's 26 now, in the beginning of what should be his best years. But he's yet to show anything close to a sign that he's capable of providing decent production to justify starting in CF over any sustained length of time, in place of a guy like Felix Pie, who at leasts offers the hope of something greater than mediocrity.

 

That being said, I'm fine with Pagan staying on as 5th OF for as long as he's still a minimum wage player.

 

I'm fine with Pagan as a 5th OF as well. And Pagan's July is slightly better than I thought, though still not good enough to warrent holding back Pie.

[jersey cubs fan]

Pagan has been terrible since a hot start. Without looking at the stats (I'm having trouble with ESPN's page right now), I'd say Pie's two week slump was no worse than the one Pagan is currently mired in.

 

Pagan in July: .258/.273/.387

 

He's 26 now, in the beginning of what should be his best years. But he's yet to show anything close to a sign that he's capable of providing decent production to justify starting in CF over any sustained length of time, in place of a guy like Felix Pie, who at leasts offers the hope of something greater than mediocrity.

 

That being said, I'm fine with Pagan staying on as 5th OF for as long as he's still a minimum wage player.

 

I'm fine with Pagan as a 5th OF as well. And Pagan's July is slightly better than I thought, though still not good enough to warrent holding back Pie.

 

His slump really started before July though. He started the season hot, with an OPS well over 1000. It was at 872 by the end of May, by June 21, following a big game in Texas, it was at 884. Between that date and the all star break, it dropped 145 points.

[Abe Frohman]

Because the point is not to be as good as they are, the point is to be as good as they can be, and each one of those guys has a good opportunity to be better than what is already on the team.

 

The point is to win. The Cubs are winning. The chemistry, talent, and other un-statistic related factors seem to be good right now for our Cubbies.

 

I'm as happy as anybody that the Cubs have gotten themselves in the race. But to pretend for a second that the last 3-4 weeks of success means there's no room for improvement is just plain wrong.

 

Who is against improving? There is a difference in improving and experimenting, especially when some of those experiments have already failed.

 

With several underperforming spots in the lineup, most notably SS, CF and RF, and the Cubs currently getting solid AAA production out of quality prospects at each of those positions, there's really no good reason not to give one or all of those guys another look, now.

 

I strongly disagree that Theriot has been "underperforming." He had a slump, and came back strong. He has good at-bats, gets on base, and scores runs. His defense has been a plus. Ryan Theriot is not a liability for the Cubs. I do think that having Cedeno to back him up would make the team better than having Izturis back him up - but what are the Cubs going to do? They have to get rid of Cesar.

 

I would not be opposed at all at having Pie back on the team, but he was mired in a miserable slump and looked lost. Piniella couldn't put him in the lineup and he is better served getting at-bats in Iowa then reeling in Chicago. He'll be back, and he'll help this team. In the mean time, Angel Pagan is doing a nice job and doesn't deserve to be replaced.

 

RF is something the Cubs haven't figured out yet. Matt Murton could work in RF, but he doesn't have the arm of a RFer - and that will be taken advantage of in the Major Leagues. He was a fine LFer, and I think he is going to be a good producer - but he is rotting away in AAA, and the best thing for him would be a trade or a chance. I think he proved himself last season, but his spot was taken by Alfonso Soriano (who I think could be a good RFer, but don't know why that wasn't ever put on the table).

[SouthSideRyan]

(That point you made about having little to lose was the thought process used behind getting Jason Kendall although that trade was slammed throughout this board).

 

It was the thought process behind people wanting Geo Soto to get a chance which the Kendall trade prevented.

[CUBZ99]

a whole bunch of stuff

 

let me see if I have this right, you don't want to try improving because they're winning even though that improvement might help them win more? just because Ronny and Felix had rough spells doesn't mean they are not better suited for those positions NOW. we're getting no production from SS or CF right NOW, so what's the harm in plugging in a couple of guys who don't have much left to prove at AAA and let them work through their big league struggles? if they fail, we're in the same spot we are in right now (except with much better OF defense)

 

Isn't he simply saying that the Cubs want to win now and don't have time to babysit players that can't perform currently? I have no problem with Lou doing exactly what he said he would do to start the year ---- "play the players who produce".

[SouthSideRyan]

Cliff Floyd is our starting RF. I never want to hear Murton can't play defense as his excuse for not being on the team again.

[bring stone back]

 

On the one hand the Cubs need to win now, the organization as a whole is so inept, etc....meanwhile let's make sure we bring up and give at bats to our young guys even though every single one of them was beaten out and outproduced by another option earlier in the year.

 

Jesus, I wish people would stop making this ridiculous arguement. Winning and playing young guys are not mutually exclusive.

 

No, they are not - you're right. However, when those young guys with so much upside do NOT produce when given opportunities they are.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

a whole bunch of stuff

 

let me see if I have this right, you don't want to try improving because they're winning even though that improvement might help them win more? just because Ronny and Felix had rough spells doesn't mean they are not better suited for those positions NOW. we're getting no production from SS or CF right NOW, so what's the harm in plugging in a couple of guys who don't have much left to prove at AAA and let them work through their big league struggles? if they fail, we're in the same spot we are in right now (except with much better OF defense)

 

Isn't he simply saying that the Cubs want to win now and don't have time to babysit players that can't perform currently? I have no problem with Lou doing exactly what he said he would do to start the year ---- "play the players who produce".

 

Theriot

[fromthestretch]

 

On the one hand the Cubs need to win now, the organization as a whole is so inept, etc....meanwhile let's make sure we bring up and give at bats to our young guys even though every single one of them was beaten out and outproduced by another option earlier in the year.

 

Jesus, I wish people would stop making this ridiculous arguement. Winning and playing young guys are not mutually exclusive.

 

No, they are not - you're right. However, when those young guys with so much upside do NOT produce when given opportunities they are.

 

Cedeno was NOT given an opportunity this year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

a whole bunch of stuff

 

let me see if I have this right, you don't want to try improving because they're winning even though that improvement might help them win more? just because Ronny and Felix had rough spells doesn't mean they are not better suited for those positions NOW. we're getting no production from SS or CF right NOW, so what's the harm in plugging in a couple of guys who don't have much left to prove at AAA and let them work through their big league struggles? if they fail, we're in the same spot we are in right now (except with much better OF defense)

 

Isn't he simply saying that the Cubs want to win now and don't have time to babysit players that can't perform currently? I have no problem with Lou doing exactly what he said he would do to start the year ---- "play the players who produce".

 

Playing the hot hand is okay when there's not a signifcant difference in ability between the players(see Theriot/Fontenot/Izturis). When one is clearly more talented(Pie) and/or has past performance and future worth on his side(Murton), you need to let the superior option play through their struggles(aka removing a player for a poor couple weeks is a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible decision).

[weis21]

 

On the one hand the Cubs need to win now, the organization as a whole is so inept, etc....meanwhile let's make sure we bring up and give at bats to our young guys even though every single one of them was beaten out and outproduced by another option earlier in the year.

 

Jesus, I wish people would stop making this ridiculous arguement. Winning and playing young guys are not mutually exclusive.

 

No, they are not - you're right. However, when those young guys with so much upside do NOT produce when given opportunities they are.

 

Cedeno was NOT given an opportunity this year.

 

Well, definitely not a prolonged opportunity, but he looked completely over matched in his 31AB's, only getting 3 hits.

[Abe Frohman]

Cedeno was NOT given an opportunity this year.

 

With the season he had last year and the performance he had in the little time he was in Chicago this year - why give him an opportunity? The guy needs to put it together in AAA. I'm sure he'll get the call when Izturis is traded/DFA.

 

Besides, Theriot is producing nicely.

 

162 game averages:

 

Cedeno: 52 runs, 123 hits, 8 SB, 18 BB, 100 K, .245 BA, .275 OB%

Theriot: 91 runs, 139 hits, 32 SB, 49 BB, 56 K, .292 BA, .361 OB%

Edited July 18, 2007 by Abe Frohman