Biggio...first ballot HoFer?

[OleMissCub]

His postseason numbers are lacking...

 

.234 AVG 2 HR 11 RBI

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml

 

So are Arod's, but that'll be unlikely to make a dent in his votes.

 

.280/.362/.485 overall

 

.315/.413/.611 in LCS games.

 

Hmmm, I guess it's a myth that he's bad in the postseason.

[JeffH]

The other thing that may wind up being a factor (although it shouldn't) is who else is on the ballot that year.

[bluestainedivy]

Barry Bonds is a whole different can of worms.

[Omar]

His helmet is wayyy to big for his head. I hate that.

[tkenm356]

Barry Bonds is a whole different can of worms.

 

I know, but postseason numbers and world series championships shouldn't deter someone from the HOF. Billy Williams made it, and didn't have what one would consider HOF-Lock numbers, nor did he have much postseason experience (7AB).

 

Biggio is a no-brainer if/when he gets 3,000 hits

[sunnydoo]

Yes on 1st ballot.

 

Everyone who says it took him x number of years to make 3000 hits is wrong. It takes talent to make a team year after year (unless you can blackmail your GM, but that is another story) to get those hits.

 

He was a catcher long before becoming a 2b and CF and its not fun nor easy being a catcher in the MLs these days.

 

He is approaching the all time record for hit batsmen. You may say that this is a crazy meaningless stat (other than the OBP), but you look at the number of times he has been on the DL in his career and you can see that this is a tough guy who likes to play ball.

 

He has avg. 143 games a year in his first 19 seasons. That includes the strike year of 115 games and his rookie season of near 50. He had only one season really stopped by injuries. 11 years with 150+ games, 5 at 160+, and 3 years at 162. That is amazing durability coupled with production.

 

Then there is the 1 team thing. Dont see that very much at all anymore. Would be good not only for him but for the franchise.

[NewUserName]

I really like Craig Biggio. I always thought he was one of those guys you hated to play against but would love on your team. I think he is probably a top 5 all time 2nd baseman.

 

Ok saying all of that, it is the Hall of FAME. Yes numbers are important, but was Biggio ever considered one of the best in the game? Where did he come in at in MVP voting? This may sound funny but his numbers will put him in the Hall but not his Fame. Which is part of the package. Probably not first ballot.

[OleMissCub]

I think he is probably a top 5 all time 2nd baseman.

 

Hmmm....

 

1) Eddie Collins

2) Ryno

3) Rogers Hornsby

4) Napoleon Lajoie

5) Biggio or ....hate to say it Joe Morgan

[Soul]

Yes on 1st ballot.

 

Everyone who says it took him x number of years to make 3000 hits is wrong. It takes talent to make a team year after year (unless you can blackmail your GM, but that is another story) to get those hits.

 

He was a catcher long before becoming a 2b and CF and its not fun nor easy being a catcher in the MLs these days.

 

He is approaching the all time record for hit batsmen. You may say that this is a crazy meaningless stat (other than the OBP), but you look at the number of times he has been on the DL in his career and you can see that this is a tough guy who likes to play ball.

 

He has avg. 143 games a year in his first 19 seasons. That includes the strike year of 115 games and his rookie season of near 50. He had only one season really stopped by injuries. 11 years with 150+ games, 5 at 160+, and 3 years at 162. That is amazing durability coupled with production.

 

Then there is the 1 team thing. Dont see that very much at all anymore. Would be good not only for him but for the franchise.

 

I'd put him in. Not on the 1st ballot though. The stuff you mentioned is real good, but nothing like breaking the record for most hits, or most consecutive games played, or 7 MVPs, or greatest player of his generation at a position, or any of the things I want to see before I go, "hell yeah first ballot!!"

[Outshined_One]

He is approaching the all time record for hit batsmen. You may say that this is a crazy meaningless stat (other than the OBP), but you look at the number of times he has been on the DL in his career and you can see that this is a tough guy who likes to play ball.

 

I'd have to wonder what that record would look like if he didn't wear armor on his elbow. If someone could show how many of those HBPs hit his body proper rather than his elbow, I'd like to see it.

 

I think he is probably a top 5 all time 2nd baseman.

 

Hmmm....

 

1) Eddie Collins

2) Ryno

3) Rogers Hornsby

4) Napoleon Lajoie

5) Biggio or ....hate to say it Joe Morgan

 

Good list...but I think Morgan has to be higher than 5. The guy was an offensive force of nature for many years and has a legitimate case to be considered the greatest Post-WW2 2B.

 

As for Biggio's chances, he'll make the HOF, no question asked. It's difficult to assess whether he's going to be a first ballot guy, though. He received MVP votes in five years, 1994 (16th), 1995 (10th), 1997 (4th), 1998 (5th), and 1999 (12th). The only seasonal meaningful (in the eys of HOF voters) offensive categories he ever led were Runs (twice, 1995 and 1997), Doubles (three times, 1994, 1998, 1999, and also the leader among active 2B), and Stolen Bases (once, 1994). He also leads second basemen in singles.

 

One curious thing that holds him back is that he is 12th in outs made over his career and first among active second basemen. Odd.

 

However, you have to remember that the following words will be used in any given puff piece that will come up when his career ends:

 

Hustle

Gritty

Intangibles

Guts

Scrappy

Clutch

Toughness

Feisty

Pest

Enthusiasm

Gumption

Will

Heart

Role Model

Overachiever

Infectious

Tough

Tenacious

 

Middle aged sports writers everywhere might jump all over voting for him. He might not be the ideal candidate for first ballot, but the potential is most certainly there.

[Rob]

I don't understand why some people refuse to vote in a player worthy of the HoF just cause they don't want him making it in on the first ballot. I can understand if you're legitimately torn on a case... but Biggio is a no-doubter Hall of Famer, and there's no reason at all he shouldn't be voted in on the first ballot.

[Magnetic Curses]

Biggio is a lock. one of the all-time greats, as much as i hate him.

[Mephistopheles]

Craig Biggio is without a doubt a first-ballot hall of famer. If you look at his stats overall you will come out with that decision, once you factor in the value created in a smallpark (The Astrodome) his value shoots up through the roof and you're possibly looking at a top 50 player in the history of the game of baseball.

[OleMissCub]

Craig Biggio is without a doubt a first-ballot hall of famer. If you look at his stats overall you will come out with that decision, once you factor in the value created in a smallpark (The Astrodome) his value shoots up through the roof and you're possibly looking at a top 50 player in the history of the game of baseball.

 

I like the guy, but THAT is stretching it. I could name off the top of my head at least 75 players better than him.

[Mephistopheles]

Craig Biggio is without a doubt a first-ballot hall of famer. If you look at his stats overall you will come out with that decision, once you factor in the value created in a smallpark (The Astrodome) his value shoots up through the roof and you're possibly looking at a top 50 player in the history of the game of baseball.

 

I like the guy, but THAT is stretching it. I could name off the top of my head at least 75 players better than him.

 

believe me or not, bill james had him at 35 overall. I dont know if hes that high but top 50 certainly is within the realm of possibilities (Although a lot of his value was due to his game being pretty park-nuetral and then playing in an extreme HR depressing park....nonetheless the value was still created, in wins).

[OleMissCub]

Craig Biggio is without a doubt a first-ballot hall of famer. If you look at his stats overall you will come out with that decision, once you factor in the value created in a smallpark (The Astrodome) his value shoots up through the roof and you're possibly looking at a top 50 player in the history of the game of baseball.

 

I like the guy, but THAT is stretching it. I could name off the top of my head at least 75 players better than him.

 

believe me or not, bill james had him at 35 overall. I dont know if hes that high but top 50 certainly is within the realm of possibilities (Although a lot of his value was due to his game being pretty park-nuetral and then playing in an extreme HR depressing park....nonetheless the value was still created, in wins).

 

He's definitely one of the greats of our generation, no doubt.

[dalgreen]

Craig Biggio is without a doubt a first-ballot hall of famer. If you look at his stats overall you will come out with that decision, once you factor in the value created in a smallpark (The Astrodome) his value shoots up through the roof and you're possibly looking at a top 50 player in the history of the game of baseball.

 

 

:shock:

 

I agree that Biggio should be elected to the HOF, but could you explain why the Astrodome is a small park?

[bhogg]

Biggio is a lock. one of the all-time greats, as much as i hate him.

 

you took the words right outta my mouth.

[Mephistopheles]

Craig Biggio is without a doubt a first-ballot hall of famer. If you look at his stats overall you will come out with that decision, once you factor in the value created in a smallpark (The Astrodome) his value shoots up through the roof and you're possibly looking at a top 50 player in the history of the game of baseball.

 

 

:shock:

 

I agree that Biggio should be elected to the HOF, but could you explain why the Astrodome is a small park?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/limajo01.shtml

 

Not the only thing! But seriously it was consistently one of the best pitchers parks in baseball when he played in it.

[erik316wttn]

EASY

 

3,000 hits, 400+ stolen bases, 280+ homers, 1800+ runs

 

Then look at the intangibles.

- He played for ONE team his entire career.

- Played 3 different positions

- 7 time all-star

- 4 gold gloves

 

0 world series titles.

 

That means nothing.

[jjgman21]

will and should are two different questions. IMO, with all the talk about how 500 is no longer a lock to the HOF, 3000 should not lock him into being a first ballot, but should lock him into the hall of fame.

 

all this talk about 'great all time' is a little far fetched. Roberto Alomar had a higher career OPS+ then Biggio, as did Lou Whittacker. Barry Larkin had a higher career OPS+ at a more difficult position (aside from the three years at catcher). take away a couple of devestating year long injuries, and Paul Molitor has 3,000 hits. are any of them HOF'ers? first ballot HOF'ers? no way.

 

 

all that said, he will probably be a first ballot HOF'er because of that magic number and all the 'intangible' garbage. but one thing that may factor in is Bagwell's status. will the HOF go back to back years with Astros, or even two out of three years? I don't know, but these are the stupid considerations that come into play.

[NCCubFan]

0 world series titles.

 

That means nothing.

Wrong. See: Santo, Ron.

[soccer10k]

Biggio should get in. If he gets 3000 hits, he'll be a first balloter, if he doesn't , he might not be a first balloter but he'll get in.

[jjgman21]

he's 16 hits away. why to people keep saying 'if he makes it to 3000?'

[jjgman21]

Craig Biggio is without a doubt a first-ballot hall of famer. If you look at his stats overall you will come out with that decision, once you factor in the value created in a smallpark (The Astrodome) his value shoots up through the roof and you're possibly looking at a top 50 player in the history of the game of baseball.

 

 

why doesn't the park he plays in cut both ways? I don't think we are even discussing his candadicy for the HOF is he wasn't about to break 3000 hits. what I think people are losing track of is that he is in his 8th season in 'Pop-up Down the Left Field Line Is A Homerun Field.'

 

splits - Home/Away

 

2002 - 775/689

2003 - 718/806

2004 - 831/781

2005 - 890/682

2006 - 868/541

 

he has about 1100 hits and 135 HR since moving to MMP. if you're going to give him credit for playing in a tough park for a decade, you also have to take into account that but for his home park being an extreme hitters park for a large chunk of his career, he probably doesn't have a job and therefore doesn't approach the magic number of 3000.

 

the guys OBP is about .350 if you take away the armor. HOF? fine, he reached a magic number. deserving of first ballot and 'one of the all time greats?' I don't think so. fine ballplayer, would have loved to have him on the Cubs, but as I pointed out above, plenty of players have better numbers and won't even be considered for the HOF, much less first ballot.

 

 

and I definitely think issues regarding the juice should come into play. just look at who his thirdbaseman and one of his best buddies was. look at the other half of the killer B's sudden jump in production. look at who the catcher was after he moved to second. ask yourself why one of the best pitchers from those teams eventually had his heart explode for not apparent reason.

 

an interesting article I just found on the subject

 

http://asher.baseballevolution.com/bagwellconspiracy.html

 

for the most part it seems like speculation, but interesting how all the steroids roads seem to lead back to Houston.