Now roster refinement begins: Discussion & speculation

[Guancous]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

[baseball7897]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

The Dodgers were not going to give up any of those guys you mentioned for Maddux.

[goonys evil twin]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

Delgado is a stud, Marquis? Not so much.

[BigbadB]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

I know you weren't honestly comparing the talents of Carlos Delgado with Jason Marquis.

 

Florida is well versed at spinning off talented players for prospects. The Cubs are not, even though they SHOULD be, considering the amount of times they finished in the bottom half of their division.

 

I would have taken George Kottaras off of the Padres hands for Maddux. Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Guzman, Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Scott Elbert, etc.....

 

The Dodgers played hardball with Hendry one too many times, and Hendry let Colletti walk all over him again on the Maddux deal. Simply amazing. Let us count the ways:

 

1) Outbid Hendry on Furcal, the only player Hendry wanted that offseason.

2) Signed Nomar, who Hendry had basically kicked to the curb. Nomar went on to have a stud-like year.

3) Cubs need for an outfielder like Milton Bradley had Dusty flying out to LA to meet with Bradley personally. Colletti traded him to Oakland instead.

4) Maddux for Izturis.

5) Signed Kenny Lofton, who would have been better than Pierre at nearly half the price.

[baseball7897]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

I know you weren't honestly comparing the talents of Carlos Delgado with Jason Marquis.

 

Florida is well versed at spinning off talented players for prospects. The Cubs are not, even though they SHOULD be, considering the amount of times they finished in the bottom half of their division.

 

I would have taken George Kottaras off of the Padres hands for Maddux. Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Guzman, Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Scott Elbert, etc.....

 

The Dodgers played hardball with Hendry one too many times, and Hendry let Colletti walk all over him again on the Maddux deal. Simply amazing. Let us count the ways:

 

1) Outbid Hendry on Furcal, the only player Hendry wanted that offseason.

2) Signed Nomar, who Hendry had basically kicked to the curb. Nomar went on to have a stud-like year.3) Cubs need for an outfielder like Milton Bradley had Dusty flying out to LA to meet with Bradley personally. Colletti traded him to Oakland instead.

4) Maddux for Izturis.

5) Signed Kenny Lofton, who would have been better than Pierre at nearly half the price.

 

Where was Nomar going to play if the Cubs decided to re-sign him?

[XZero771679666304]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

I know you weren't honestly comparing the talents of Carlos Delgado with Jason Marquis.

 

Florida is well versed at spinning off talented players for prospects. The Cubs are not, even though they SHOULD be, considering the amount of times they finished in the bottom half of their division.

 

I would have taken George Kottaras off of the Padres hands for Maddux. Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Guzman, Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Scott Elbert, etc.....

 

The Dodgers played hardball with Hendry one too many times, and Hendry let Colletti walk all over him again on the Maddux deal. Simply amazing. Let us count the ways:

 

1) Outbid Hendry on Furcal, the only player Hendry wanted that offseason.

2) Signed Nomar, who Hendry had basically kicked to the curb. Nomar went on to have a stud-like year.3) Cubs need for an outfielder like Milton Bradley had Dusty flying out to LA to meet with Bradley personally. Colletti traded him to Oakland instead.

4) Maddux for Izturis.

5) Signed Kenny Lofton, who would have been better than Pierre at nearly half the price.

 

Where was Nomar going to play if the Cubs decided to re-sign him?

 

The OF, probably.

[baseball7897]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

I know you weren't honestly comparing the talents of Carlos Delgado with Jason Marquis.

 

Florida is well versed at spinning off talented players for prospects. The Cubs are not, even though they SHOULD be, considering the amount of times they finished in the bottom half of their division.

 

I would have taken George Kottaras off of the Padres hands for Maddux. Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Guzman, Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Scott Elbert, etc.....

 

The Dodgers played hardball with Hendry one too many times, and Hendry let Colletti walk all over him again on the Maddux deal. Simply amazing. Let us count the ways:

 

1) Outbid Hendry on Furcal, the only player Hendry wanted that offseason.

2) Signed Nomar, who Hendry had basically kicked to the curb. Nomar went on to have a stud-like year.3) Cubs need for an outfielder like Milton Bradley had Dusty flying out to LA to meet with Bradley personally. Colletti traded him to Oakland instead.

4) Maddux for Izturis.

5) Signed Kenny Lofton, who would have been better than Pierre at nearly half the price.

 

Where was Nomar going to play if the Cubs decided to re-sign him?

 

The OF, probably.

 

With his history of leg injuries, I would have been amazed if he would have stayed healthy an entire season if he played the OF in 06.

[BigbadB]

With his history of leg injuries, I would have been amazed if he would have stayed healthy an entire season if he played the OF in 06.

 

He wouldn't have had to play OF the whole season. He could have played 1b while Lee was down with a broken wrist.

 

Nomar was giving the Cubs a discount to stay in Chicago. He felt he owed it to the fans of Chicago. Hendry was so entrenched in his plan to get Furcal here, and he was so convinced he would get him, he basically kicked Nomar to the curb. Hendry had no back up plan, which is basically what Nomar was. An insurance policy.

 

I could have dealt with Nomar playing some SS last year besides playing some outfield or filling in for an injured player like Lee. 5m for a player of Nomar's abilities gives the team depth and strength. You find a way to get at bats for a guy like Nomar.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

I know you weren't honestly comparing the talents of Carlos Delgado with Jason Marquis.

 

Florida is well versed at spinning off talented players for prospects. The Cubs are not, even though they SHOULD be, considering the amount of times they finished in the bottom half of their division.

 

I would have taken George Kottaras off of the Padres hands for Maddux. Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Guzman, Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Scott Elbert, etc.....

 

The Dodgers played hardball with Hendry one too many times, and Hendry let Colletti walk all over him again on the Maddux deal. Simply amazing. Let us count the ways:

 

1) Outbid Hendry on Furcal, the only player Hendry wanted that offseason.

2) Signed Nomar, who Hendry had basically kicked to the curb. Nomar went on to have a stud-like year.3) Cubs need for an outfielder like Milton Bradley had Dusty flying out to LA to meet with Bradley personally. Colletti traded him to Oakland instead.

4) Maddux for Izturis.

5) Signed Kenny Lofton, who would have been better than Pierre at nearly half the price.

 

Where was Nomar going to play if the Cubs decided to re-sign him?

 

The OF, probably.

 

With his history of leg injuries, I would have been amazed if he would have stayed healthy an entire season if he played the OF in 06.

 

Why? The outfield is much easier on the legs than being on the infield every day.

[BigbadB]

With his history of leg injuries, I would have been amazed if he would have stayed healthy an entire season if he played the OF in 06.

 

Jacque Jones at 5m in 2006: .285 .334 .499 OPS+: 107

Garciaparra at 5m in 2006: .303 .367 .505 OPS+: 120

 

And it didn't have to be either or. They could have had both of those guys AND Murton. They could have signed Lofton for cheaper than Pierre cost, and they would still have Nolasco.

[BigbadB]

And finally, if it really didn't work out with Nomar, he would have been a nice trade commodity at the trade deadline last year.

 

He probably would have requested to be traded to a west coast team, but there were plenty of those making moves last year.

[Guancous]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

Delgado is a stud, Marquis? Not so much.

 

True. I'm just advancing a general strategy. You think that the Royals wouldn't trade a lesser prospect for Marquis instead of paying Gil Meche 5/$55? I'm not asking for Gordon, Butler or Hochevar. I feel that Izturis is Cedeno is a glove and a longer resume.

 

At least Izzy isn't Christian Guzman.

[Guancous]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

Touche. I'm sure Hendry got the most that he could. It's too bad Maddux didn't want to go to the Rangers. We could have traded him for DeRosa.

 

That brings up another point. Hendry's hands were really tied with Maddux's demands (which were well deserved). Hendry was staring at getting nothing for him and seeing what they had in the AAA/AAAA pitchers.

[Backtobanks]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

I know you weren't honestly comparing the talents of Carlos Delgado with Jason Marquis.

 

Florida is well versed at spinning off talented players for prospects. The Cubs are not, even though they SHOULD be, considering the amount of times they finished in the bottom half of their division.

 

I would have taken George Kottaras off of the Padres hands for Maddux. Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Guzman, Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Scott Elbert, etc.....

 

The Dodgers played hardball with Hendry one too many times, and Hendry let Colletti walk all over him again on the Maddux deal. Simply amazing. Let us count the ways:

 

1) Outbid Hendry on Furcal, the only player Hendry wanted that offseason.

2) Signed Nomar, who Hendry had basically kicked to the curb. Nomar went on to have a stud-like year.

3) Cubs need for an outfielder like Milton Bradley had Dusty flying out to LA to meet with Bradley personally. Colletti traded him to Oakland instead.

4) Maddux for Izturis.

5) Signed Kenny Lofton, who would have been better than Pierre at nearly half the price.

 

And I'm sure Hendry would have taken any of those guys too. The problem is they weren't offered. As for signing Nomar, the Cubs didn't have a position for him contrary to everyone's opinion that he could have played RF. Can you imagine Nomar's sidearm throws from RF?

[mg420]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

This offseason makes the Maddux trade look much worse for both teams. The Dodgers went and signed a bunch of free agent OFs. I would have given up Maddux for Andre Ethier, James Loney, Matt Kemp or Joel Guzman. Instead we got a light hitting SS coming off Tommy John surgery. That costs $6.5 million a year. Yuck.

 

I know you weren't honestly comparing the talents of Carlos Delgado with Jason Marquis.

 

Florida is well versed at spinning off talented players for prospects. The Cubs are not, even though they SHOULD be, considering the amount of times they finished in the bottom half of their division.

 

I would have taken George Kottaras off of the Padres hands for Maddux. Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Guzman, Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Scott Elbert, etc.....

 

The Dodgers played hardball with Hendry one too many times, and Hendry let Colletti walk all over him again on the Maddux deal. Simply amazing. Let us count the ways:

 

1) Outbid Hendry on Furcal, the only player Hendry wanted that offseason.

2) Signed Nomar, who Hendry had basically kicked to the curb. Nomar went on to have a stud-like year.

3) Cubs need for an outfielder like Milton Bradley had Dusty flying out to LA to meet with Bradley personally. Colletti traded him to Oakland instead.

4) Maddux for Izturis.

5) Signed Kenny Lofton, who would have been better than Pierre at nearly half the price.

 

And I'm sure Hendry would have taken any of those guys too. The problem is they weren't offered. As for signing Nomar, the Cubs didn't have a position for him contrary to everyone's opinion that he could have played RF. Can you imagine Nomar's sidearm throws from RF?

 

couldnt be any worse than jones was last year. i hope his off season preparation has grealty improved his throwing arm. 1st base is one thing but i doubt nomar would have done very well at any of the OF postions.

[BigbadB]

And I'm sure Hendry would have taken any of those guys too. The problem is they weren't offered. As for signing Nomar, the Cubs didn't have a position for him contrary to everyone's opinion that he could have played RF. Can you imagine Nomar's sidearm throws from RF?

 

Just because someone is offering you crap in return for a dependable arm, doesn't mean you have to accept the offer.

 

An overpaid, arthritic, part time, utility infielder is a crap player and nowhere near the value of a pitching arm for a team attempting to make the playoffs.

 

Neifi Perez at 2.5m and Glendon Rusch at 2.5m or Nomar at 5m. I'll take Nomar every time. It would have prevented Glendon from ever stepping on the mound, and it would have prevented Neifi from getting more at bats at the top of the order.

 

And honestly, can we really complain about Nomar's sidearm throwing angle after watching Juan Pierre's girly arm and Jacque Jones' pathetic release point in two of the three outfield spots last year?

 

Probably wouldn't have mattered whether we had Nomar last year or not. The team was still going to be lousy with or without him, and I have zero faith Hendry could have gotten anymore out of Nomar at the trade deadline than Maicer Izturis, Cesar's brother.

[CubColtPacer]

And I'm sure Hendry would have taken any of those guys too. The problem is they weren't offered. As for signing Nomar, the Cubs didn't have a position for him contrary to everyone's opinion that he could have played RF. Can you imagine Nomar's sidearm throws from RF?

 

Just because someone is offering you crap in return for a dependable arm, doesn't mean you have to accept the offer.

 

An overpaid, arthritic, part time, utility infielder is a crap player and nowhere near the value of a pitching arm for a team attempting to make the playoffs.

 

Neifi Perez at 2.5m and Glendon Rusch at 2.5m or Nomar at 5m. I'll take Nomar every time. It would have prevented Glendon from ever stepping on the mound, and it would have prevented Neifi from getting more at bats at the top of the order.

 

And honestly, can we really complain about Nomar's sidearm throwing angle after watching Juan Pierre's girly arm and Jacque Jones' pathetic release point in two of the three outfield spots last year?

 

Probably wouldn't have mattered whether we had Nomar last year or not. The team was still going to be lousy with or without him, and I have zero faith Hendry could have gotten anymore out of Nomar at the trade deadline than Maicer Izturis, Cesar's brother.

 

I agree with the rest of your argument, but Nomar wouldn't have replaced Glendon and Neifi-he would have replaced Jacque Jones instead. I don't know who I would rather have had-Nomar was the better player when he was in there (although if Jacque had been used at least somewhat correctly it would have been close), but Nomar also missed a decent part of the season again even playing first. Knowing what we do now about last year, I'd still probably take Jacque over Nomar because of the health issue (Nomar might have been hurt worse in RF, and even if he got hurt the same amount, he would have missed more games trying to get back into playing RF with those leg injuries than he did where he was able to play first).

[BigbadB]

I don't agree that Nomar would have replaced Jones. The Cubs signed Cliff Floyd this year and they have Murton and Jones.

 

Nomar, Murt and Jones could have split time in the outfield and when Cedeno started struggling, I wouldn't have hesitated to put Nomar out there at SS. Of course, Lee got hurt pretty early in the season, which would have locked down a guaranteed job at 1b for the duration of Lee's injury. Nomar provided depth to the team.

 

No, we didn't know Lee would get hurt. But, we did see Aramis nursing an injury the two previous years, which gave Nomar an opportunity to play some 3b as well.

 

By the trade deadline, if Nomar really didn't have a place on this team, he could have easily been traded to a team in need.

 

More than anything, he provided insurance (ie, depth) to a team that ended up really struggling last year because they didn't have any.

[BigbadB]

And I've spoken on this topic until I'm blue in the face. It's a new season and I have a lot to be excited about in 2007, so I really don't want to dwell on the '06 season.

 

I just wanted more for Maddux. And I think Hendry could have gotten more than a high priced, no-hit, oft-injured utility player.

[Amazing_Grace]

And I've spoken on this topic until I'm blue in the face. It's a new season and I have a lot to be excited about in 2007, so I really don't want to dwell on the '06 season.

 

I just wanted more for Maddux. And I think Hendry could have gotten more than a high priced, no-hit, oft-injured utility player.

 

He could have gotten more by not trading Maddux and getting a draft choice.

[BigbadB]

Would the Cubs have offered Maddux arbitration? I'm not so sure they would have.

[Amazing_Grace]

Would the Cubs have offered Maddux arbitration? I'm not so sure they would have.

 

Well they paid Marquis 21M over 3 seasons. The absolute worst case scenario with offering Maddux arbritration is having him awarded around 15M for one year, and it likely wouldn't be quite that bad. We could, and did, do worse than keeping Maddux for this season in our rotation baseball wise, and it's hard for me to believe one year of Maddux at 15M isn't still better than three years of Marquis at 21M from a financial perspective.

[Rob]

Would the Cubs have offered Maddux arbitration? I'm not so sure they would have.

 

Well they paid Marquis 21M over 3 seasons. The absolute worst case scenario with offering Maddux arbritration is having him awarded around 15M for one year, and it likely wouldn't be quite that bad. We could, and did, do worse than keeping Maddux for this season in our rotation baseball wise, and it's hard for me to believe one year of Maddux at 15M isn't still better than three years of Marquis at 21M from a financial perspective.

 

I'm inclined to agree. I've always been of the mind that it's real hard to have a bad one-year deal...

[cheapseats]

The only thing keeping Cesar Izturis from Neifi Perez levels of putridity is the fact that he's a very good defensive SS.

 

The Fielding Bible had Neifi ranked ahead of Izturis, FWIW.

[BigbadB]

The only thing keeping Cesar Izturis from Neifi Perez levels of putridity is the fact that he's a very good defensive SS.

 

The Fielding Bible had Neifi ranked ahead of Izturis, FWIW.

 

I hope we don't end up missing Neifi by midseason. Of course, Detroit would probably love to give him back at this point.