Pujols poll

[wolf stansson]

Over at the Cardinals rip off of NSBB, we are having a greatest player ever poll. A few posters are against including Albert Pujols in the field of 64 saying he hasn't done enough.

 

I said he should be included because of his historic start, his multiple awards, WS ring, historic rate stats and already impressive counting stats. Awards and "clutchiness" may not matter when evaluating a player, but Albert already has enough moments (Lidge homerun, WS ring and most walk offs since '01) that I think he warrants consideration on the list.

 

A poster said that if we conducted a poll on another site that he wouldn't be included in the field of the 64 greatest players of all time list.

 

So how about it? Would you put him on the list?

 

BTW - Feel free to join just to participate if you wish.

http://gatewayredbirds.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=15

[wolf stansson]

BTW, list:

Pitchers (16)

 

Roger Clemens

Walter Johnson

Christy Mathewson

Greg Maddux

Warren Spahn

Steve Carlton

Cy Young

Tom Seaver

Pedro Martinez

Sandy Koufax

Lefty Grove

Bob Gibson

Randy Johnson

Pete Alexander

Don Sutton

Gaylord Perry

 

Hitters (48)

 

Babe Ruth

Ted Williams

Lou Gehrig

Barry Bonds

Stan Musial

Ty Cobb

Tris Speaker

Manny Ramirez

Rogers Hornsby

Frank Thomas

Mark McGwire

Mickey Mantle

Joe DiMaggio

Jeff Bagwell

Mel Ott

Willie Mays

Rafael Palmeiro

Hank Aaron

Frank Robinson

Mike Schmidt

Willie Stargell

Eddie Mathews

Harmon Killebrew

Sammy Sosa

Ken Griffey Jr.

Jimmie Foxx

Gary Sheffield

Honus Wagner

Albert Pujols

Todd Helton

Jim Thome

Vladimir Guerrero

Alex Rodriguez

Albert Belle

Carlos Delgado

Joe Jackson

Mike Piazza

Reggie Jackson

Willie McCovey

Ernie Banks

Eddie Murray

Dave Winfield

Carl Ystrzemski

Andre Dawson

Cal Ripken

Johnny Mize

Lou Brock

 

 

If you don't think he belongs, who isn't on there that should be?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Rickey Henderson should be on there over a player like Dawson.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't know. Don't really care either. But that youtube video of the German Cubs fan was hysterical.

[TruffleShuffle]

Rickey Henderson should be on there over a player like Dawson.

 

yeah, I read the list and Rickey's omission jumped out at me immediately.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Personally, I think Fergie Jenkins belongs over Sutton on that list, but I realistically their careers are very similar.

 

Henderson being left off while the likes of Dawson, Brock, and Palmiero are considered is a travesty.

 

I'd look at Tim Raines over Brock, Dawson, and Palmeiro. I've always believed Raines was very underated.

 

Ivan Rodriguez is probably more deserving than the three above as well. Taking position into account, Johnny Bench likely deserves a mention as well.

[Mark_R]

No Jackie Robinson?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Robinson also would be better than Dawson, Palmeiro, or Brock.

 

Also, I can't believe those would be included over Clemente as well.

[indifferent]

Robinson also would be better than Dawson, Palmeiro, or Brock.

 

Also, I can't believe those would be included over Clemente as well.

 

Hey Vance, just a hint, but you are a member of the forum so you can weigh in. BTW, Henderson, Bench, and Robinson have all been pointed out as omissions with cases made so they'll likely be included.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I added my thoughts to the thread at GWR.

[AR-Baseball-Fan]

I would have to say yes to being in the top 64. What has he been in the league, five years now? That's long enough and he has the consistency over that time period. He has numbers favorable to some of the best hitters in history, including Ted Williams. He's in.

[indifferent]

I would have to say yes to being in the top 64. What has he been in the league, five years now? That's long enough and he has the consistency over that time period. He has numbers favorable to some of the best hitters in history, including Ted Williams. He's in.

 

6 yrs. now

[Andy]

Put Pujols in over Brock

 

Easily

[NCCubFan]

I think Pujols has been at the top long enough to be included. If some people don't think he's played long enough yet they can simply not vote for him.

[TruffleShuffle]

I'm going to pore through that list more in a day or two, but I'm sure there are some glaring omissions, if Rickey Henderson was omitted and Lou Brock was accepted.

 

Statistician Bill James, once asked if he thought Rickey Henderson was a Hall of Famer, replied: "If you could split him in two, you'd have two Hall of Famers."

[Balsa]

Kinda iffy right now, but I'd be shocked if he isn't in the top 30 by the end of his career.

[soccer10k]

If Pujols retired today, would he make the HOF? I doubt it because he's only played 6 years now so I don't think he can be called one of the all time greats. If he does this for a couple more years then I would say yes (like Sandy Koufax).

[CubmanPi]

If Pujols retired today, would he make the HOF? I doubt it because he's only played 6 years now so I don't think he can be called one of the all time greats. If he does this for a couple more years then I would say yes (like Sandy Koufax).

I believe you need to have ten years in the league to be considered for HOF. If Pujols has one more year typical of his production, he can probably play the next three at league average, retire, and still make it.

 

My initial instinct was to not vote for him, but after looking at the list, there's no way he shouldn't be included. By the time his career is over, there's no way he isn't regarded in the upper half of the all-time elite names.

 

 

 

 

 

 

After all that, I have to add that I still absolutely loathe the fact that he is a Cardinal.

 

EDIT: My yes vote tipped the scales, 13-12 in favor as of now.

[goonys evil twin]

If Pujols retired today, would he make the HOF? I doubt it because he's only played 6 years now so I don't think he can be called one of the all time greats. If he does this for a couple more years then I would say yes (like Sandy Koufax).

I believe you need to have ten years in the league to be considered for HOF. If Pujols has one more year typical of his production, he can probably play the next three at league average, retire, and still make it.

.

 

You believe that's a rule or that's just a belief of yours?

[CubmanPi]

I believe it's a rule - I'm pretty sure I read something about it when I was trying to give myself an educated opinion on whether or not Santo would get in and stumbled across the basic guidelines. Now I'm gonna have to go check.

[TruffleShuffle]

I would have to say yes to being in the top 64. What has he been in the league, five years now? That's long enough and he has the consistency over that time period. He has numbers favorable to some of the best hitters in history, including Ted Williams. He's in.

 

I still say Williams' numbers are better by a wide margin. About 20 points in OPS+, more than 2 runs created per 27 outs, and most importantly, Williams' OBP was 63 points higher. When it comes to hitters, only one guy is in Williams' class, and that's Ruth. Bonds has approached Williams' stats, but Ted's numbers are still better. While Bonds cheated to become a great player after his peak, Williams missed 5 years of his prime due to military service.

[CubmanPi]

baseballhalloffame.org[/url]"]B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).

[goonys evil twin]

baseballhalloffame.org[/url]"]B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).

 

Interesting.

 

I don't see the point of the rule though.

[CubmanPi]

Probably just because there has to be a line somewhere. The HOF recognizes people who play at a high level for an extended period of time, and that rule will ensure that even the brightest flashes in the pan don't get in.

 

Say that rule isn't there, and Pujols has a career-ending injury this season. Then the argument inevitably arises about his career and whether he should make it. Then say a pitcher named Kerry Prior comes along, strikes out 20 in his first month in the bigs, puts up nothing but 18+win seasons and sub 2.50 ERAs for the first four years of his career and leads the majors in pretty much every possible pitching category, even finds a perfect game in there somewhere, but falls prey to a career-ending sore shoulder after only four or five seasons. How do you figure that into the debate? Players all over the league will have great career years. If someone has a few career years early on but isn't in the game long enough to prove that they can sustain playing at the elite level through their peak years, why should they be honored as the best of the best among such a rich history?

 

/thread hijack

[TruffleShuffle]

FWIW, Bill James' best 64 players, omitting Negro League players (which it seems is the case on the list in this thread):

 

Catcher

Yogi Berra

Johnny Bench

Roy Campanella

Mickey Cochrane

 

First Base

Lou Gehrig

Jimmie Foxx

Mark McGwire

Jeff Bagwell

Frank Thomas

Eddie Murray

Johnny Mize

Harmon Killebrew

Hank Greenberg

Willie McCovey

 

Second Base

Joe Morgan

Eddie Collins

Rogers Hornsby

Jackie Robinson

Craig Biggio

Nap Lajoie

Ryne Sandberg

Charlie Gehringer

Rod Carew

 

Third Base

Mike Schmidt

George Brett

Eddie Matthews

Wade Boggs

Home Run Baker

 

Shortstop

Honus Wagner

Arky Vaughan

Cal Ripken

Robin Yount

 

Left Field

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Barry Bonds

Rickey Henderson

Carl Yastrzemski

Joe Jackson

 

Center Field

Willie Mays

Mickey Mantle

Ty Cobb

Tris Speaker

Joe DiMaggio

Duke Snider

Ken Griffey Jr.

 

Right Field

Babe Ruth

Hank Aaron

Frank Robinson

Mel Ott

Pete Rose

Reggie Jackson

 

 

Pitcher

Walter Johnson

Lefty Grove

Pete Alexander

Cy Young

Warren Spahn

Tom Seaver

Christy Mathewson

Bob Gibson

Kid Nichols

Sandy Koufax

Roger Clemens

Bob Feller

 

 

Others to be considered (due to their play since James' rankings were issued):

 

Piazza

Pudge Rodriguez

Pujols

A-Rod

Jeter

Manny Ramirez

Roberto Alomar

Sosa

Maddux

Pedro

Randy Johnson

Edited December 21, 2006 by TruffleShuffle