C. Lee to Astros - 6 years/$100 M

[Guest]

for the record, the A's scout the players they draft so the notion that they don't see the players they draft is not correct. but you would rather criticize the book than read it I guess.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I like to say "you are ignorant, as in ingoring XYZ", that makes it clear that Im not saying you are stupid, I'm saying your just haven't taken something into consideration. Those who do not use stats, facts, etc. to evaluate players are being ignorant. Those who draft players without actually watching them play (IIR a player in Moneyball correctly) are being ignorant as well.

 

Jeremy Brown was indeed scouted by the A's. The scouts didn't like him that much, but they sure did scout him.

[Rob]

I like to say "you are ignorant, as in ingoring XYZ", that makes it clear that Im not saying you are stupid, I'm saying your just haven't taken something into consideration. Those who do not use stats, facts, etc. to evaluate players are being ignorant. Those who draft players without actually watching them play (IIR a player in Moneyball correctly) are being ignorant as well.

 

Jeremy Brown was indeed scouted by the A's. The scouts didn't like him that much, but they sure did scout him.

 

"We're not selling blue jeans here."

[Mephistopheles]

for the record, the A's scout the players they draft so the notion that they don't see the players they draft is not correct. but you would rather criticize the book than read it I guess.

 

 

and if you read the book, Beane wants athletic pitchers, not just K:BB stars like Ricciardi goes after

[nilodnayr]

for the record, the A's scout the players they draft so the notion that they don't see the players they draft is not correct. but you would rather criticize the book than read it I guess.

 

 

I said "If I remember Moneyball correctly"...meaning, I read the book 3 years ago and was unsure if I remembered correctly or not. And thanks, it was Jeremy Brown I was thinking of but couldn't remember. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I like to say "you are ignorant, as in ingoring XYZ", that makes it clear that Im not saying you are stupid, I'm saying your just haven't taken something into consideration. Those who do not use stats, facts, etc. to evaluate players are being ignorant. Those who draft players without actually watching them play (IIR a player in Moneyball correctly) are being ignorant as well.

 

Jeremy Brown was indeed scouted by the A's. The scouts didn't like him that much, but they sure did scout him.

 

"We're not selling blue jeans here."

 

:D

[Mizzou]

it's november not july.

Thanks for the breaking news.

 

good job missing the point. what game are you watching anyway? If you don't enjoy the statistical evaluation why do you assume no one else does? If you don't want to read it, don't. I don't read anything baseball### posts because his opinion doesn't interest me. I suggest you and he do the same with posts you aren't interested in instead of retorting with sarcasm. Just because you don't want to follow logical and mathematical arguments doesn't mean you need to denigrate the posters or act as if you are sooo put out by having to read them.

It seems that you're the one who missed the point. My point, at least. I'm not saying that I'm anti-stats, or whatever. Stats are a great way to tell a lot about a player. What bothers me is when people use stats, and only stats, to evaluate a player. Statistics are great, but I have no interest in looking at a stat that takes 10 pages of paper to compute. Does that make me ignorant to these "new age" stats? You bet it does, and I'm completely fine with that, as I don't need all those to evaluate a player.

 

And I never acted as if I was put out by reading anyone's posts, so you can cancel that little theory. I learn a lot on this site. It's just that some people seem like they'd rather study a stat book than watch an actual baseball game.

 

And I don't have a particular person in mind when I say that, so if you're reading this and happen to think that I'm talking about you... I'm not.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

And I never acted as if I was put out by reading anyone's posts, so you can cancel that little theory. I learn a lot on this site. It's just that some people seem like they'd rather study a stat book than watch an actual baseball game.

 

And I don't have a particular person in mind when I say that, so if you're reading this and happen to think that I'm talking about you... I'm not.

 

Interesting...you think some people here are a certain way, but can't think of any one person like that.

[CubinNY]

The very idea that if someone is interested in statistics or numbers or new thoughts, or whatever one wants to call something, it somehow limits his or her appreciation of the game is, for obvious reasons foolish.

 

Astronomers have no less appreciation for the cosmos becuse they use complex math than do astrologers.

 

The difference is that the former uses math to gain a better understanding of the subject matter.

 

Baseball isn't some metaphyiscal excersize that should be shrouded in mystery and wonder, especailly if you're running one of the teams.

Edited November 27, 2006 by CubinNY

[Guest]

It's just annoying, that's all.

 

well, apparently you are annoyed by them so that's why I thought that. my apologies nilo - most people who criticize moneyball haven't read the book and you suggestion that the A's don't scout certainly suggests that.

[Guest]

After reading through this thread, I can't help but wonder if baseball is even fun to some people.

 

again, this would imply that you think this thread is no fun. obviously to some people it is. if it annoys you, why are you reading it? and other than analyze, what are you going to do in the offseason? That is the point you are missing. if you don't want to go as in depth as some people, fine. stop complaining about it though.

[Mizzou]

And I never acted as if I was put out by reading anyone's posts, so you can cancel that little theory. I learn a lot on this site. It's just that some people seem like they'd rather study a stat book than watch an actual baseball game.

 

And I don't have a particular person in mind when I say that, so if you're reading this and happen to think that I'm talking about you... I'm not.

 

Interesting...you think some people here are a certain way, but can't think of any one person like that.

Oh I can think of several people like that. I just didn't want my comments to seem that they were directed to one person specifically, because they weren't.

[nilodnayr]

It's just annoying, that's all.

 

well, apparently you are annoyed by them so that's why I thought that. my apologies nilo - most people who criticize moneyball haven't read the book and you suggestion that the A's don't scout certainly suggests that.

 

I can see how it came across that way because I said "players", but Navin is right, by players I was thinking Jeremy Brown. Again, I'm probably remembering this incorrectly, but I believe there was a passage on them coveting Brown based on the #s he was putting up and then some one seeing him play and that he was a fat guy who couldnt move or something like that. And now I realize that if they knew he was a fat guy who couldn't move, then the must have seen him!

[cheapseats]

The only team that Lee hit better than the Cubs: the Astros.

 

I wonder if teams generally value a player who has had greatsuccess against them more than they value a player who hasn't?

[Backtobanks]

it's november not july.

Thanks for the breaking news.

 

good job missing the point. what game are you watching anyway? If you don't enjoy the statistical evaluation why do you assume no one else does? If you don't want to read it, don't. I don't read anything baseball### posts because his opinion doesn't interest me. I suggest you and he do the same with posts you aren't interested in instead of retorting with sarcasm. Just because you don't want to follow logical and mathematical arguments doesn't mean you need to denigrate the posters or act as if you are sooo put out by having to read them.

It seems that you're the one who missed the point. My point, at least. I'm not saying that I'm anti-stats, or whatever. Stats are a great way to tell a lot about a player. What bothers me is when people use stats, and only stats, to evaluate a player. Statistics are great, but I have no interest in looking at a stat that takes 10 pages of paper to compute. Does that make me ignorant to these "new age" stats? You bet it does, and I'm completely fine with that, as I don't need all those to evaluate a player.

 

And I never acted as if I was put out by reading anyone's posts, so you can cancel that little theory. I learn a lot on this site. It's just that some people seem like they'd rather study a stat book than watch an actual baseball game.

 

And I don't have a particular person in mind when I say that, so if you're reading this and happen to think that I'm talking about you... I'm not.

 

Your basic point is one that I've brought up a few times and gotten jumped on for mentioning it. It seems like any player mentioned brings out 3 pages of stats comparing him to some other player and pointing out how great (or lousy) he is by using statistics that were invented in the last 10 years. Somehow I grew up watching Clemente, Aaron, Banks, Mantle, Mays, etc. without knowing what VORP, Isod, etc. meant, but I knew they were great players by watching them.

[Soriano12]

It's about people getting so wrapped up in different statistics that they focus more on a formula than they do on the actual game. It's just annoying, that's all.

 

Word.

[Mizzou]

While looking at Lee's baseball reference page, I just noticed something that was completely shocking to me. He stole 19 bases last year! And he's had more than 10 stolen bases every year but one since 2000. I guess I always just assumed that he was slow because of his size.

[OleMissCub]

obviously he is ignorant of WARP and other sabermetric statistics. not being able to understand them when explained would suggest stupidity - although I think laziness would be a more likely cause of not comprehending.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that if you mentioned WARP or other sabermetric statistics to an actual baseball player he'd look at you like you were speaking a different language. When I played, I didn't care about my stats that much. In fact, I wasn't even aware of them most of the time. In college the only times I ever saw my stats were if I was reading an article about one of the games or if I looked up at the scoreboard during one of the games...although I was normally so "in the moment" at the plate that I didn't pay attention to the scoreboard. I learned early on that stat-watching is distracting as a player, and distractions are never ever a good thing in sports, especially in baseball where concentration is key.

 

The only stat that mattered was WINS.

[cubweiser03]

Ah, i had a feeling the ignorant thing might blow up. It would of been more fun to say 'old school' instead, knowing that he is younger than 30.

 

This Lee deal blows. Here's another way i look at. If Aram opts out after 4 years he will need to be paid more than $20M for 2 years to equal this contract. Or if he starts suckn later on he can get the sixth year and still the deal will be about $10M less than Lee deal. Whatta joke.

[abuck1220]

It's about people getting so wrapped up in different statistics that they focus more on a formula than they do on the actual game. It's just annoying, that's all.

 

Word.

 

who says they don't enjoy/focus on the game?

 

just b/c some enjoy the game as a lyrical ode to america filled with hustle, grit, heart, chemistry and intangibles doesn't mean that some can't enjoy it for other reasons.

[cheapseats]

While looking at Lee's baseball reference page, I just noticed something that was completely shocking to me. He stole 19 bases last year! And he's had more than 10 stolen bases every year but one since 2000. I guess I always just assumed that he was slow because of his size.

 

It's just that some people seem like they'd rather study a stat book than watch an actual baseball game.

 

So you did learn something by consulting a statbook? :twisted:

 

Just kidding. Yeah, there are a lot of people making money writing for newspapers and offering opinion for TV networks that don't realize Lee is a good baserunner.

 

When he was with the White Sox, they wanted him to run more often.

[Careless]

in WARP the difference is about 15 runs over 162 games. in eqa the difference is about 12 runs over 162 games.

 

these are comparing average productin at both spots. I would assume that the stdev at lf is a lot higher than the stdev at 2b which makes the difference higher.

 

Does it make me stupid that I played the game for 16 years of my life and don't have a clue as to what the hell y'all are talking about? What the crap is WARP??

playing the game for 16 years and not knowing WARP is quite a bit less odd than being on this board for 3.5 years and not knowing it

[Careless]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

 

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense! :roll:

That's as silly a response as "Because when Soriano strikes out, it's really helping out offense! :roll: "

Neither of these statements have anything to do with what he posted. try harder.

 

He obviously didn't understand what I meant by that. I subscribe to the feeling having a nagging threat on the bases clogs a pitchers mind. If you or he do not agree with that, please don't mock with your holier than though attitute and talk to posters like they are dumb just because they beleive something other than what you THINK you know is true.

 

That bolded part is very true.

Baseball: No one doubted that he believes that.

Giles: then you need to work a lot on your writing, because that was nowhere in your post.

[Careless]

obviously he is ignorant of WARP and other sabermetric statistics. not being able to understand them when explained would suggest stupidity - although I think laziness would be a more likely cause of not comprehending.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that if you mentioned WARP or other sabermetric statistics to an actual baseball player he'd look at you like you were speaking a different language. When I played, I didn't care about my stats that much. In fact, I wasn't even aware of them most of the time. In college the only times I ever saw my stats were if I was reading an article about one of the games or if I looked up at the scoreboard during one of the games...although I was normally so "in the moment" at the plate that I didn't pay attention to the scoreboard. I learned early on that stat-watching is distracting as a player, and distractions are never ever a good thing in sports, especially in baseball where concentration is key.

 

The only stat that mattered was WINS.

So GMs and players need to know different things?

[nilodnayr]

I go to about 25 games a year and before they put the pitch counts on the foul line scoreboards, I used to count pitches just as much as I counted Old Style cups. Thanks to technology, now I just have to count Old Style cups :lol: