Cubs still pursuing Lugo.

[Drew Doughty]

I think I'm missing something in all of this. Isn't Center Field a pretty important defensive position??? (not to say that they all aren't important, but some are just, well, more important)

Now all of a sudden we want to take a former second baseman, who played one year in left and hand him the reins of center. And if that doesn't work we want to take an effective shortstop and move him up there.

 

I don't just get it??? Is this all to make sure there's room for Pie?

 

Defense doesn't matter. :lol:

 

Petition to ban rolleyes because I'm really tempted to use it.

 

 

No one ever said defense doesn't matter.

 

I wish that were the case.

 

Will this be the thread where you finally use evidence to support your claim?

 

no quotes allowed!

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think I'm missing something in all of this. Isn't Center Field a pretty important defensive position??? (not to say that they all aren't important, but some are just, well, more important)

Now all of a sudden we want to take a former second baseman, who played one year in left and hand him the reins of center. And if that doesn't work we want to take an effective shortstop and move him up there.

 

I don't just get it??? Is this all to make sure there's room for Pie?

 

Defense doesn't matter. :lol:

 

Petition to ban rolleyes because I'm really tempted to use it.

 

 

No one ever said defense doesn't matter.

 

I wish that were the case.

 

Will this be the thread where you finally use evidence to support your claim?

 

no quotes allowed!

 

No, like always he dissapears when someone asks him to provide tangible support. It's easier than actually having proof for your statements.

[baseball7897]

I think I'm missing something in all of this. Isn't Center Field a pretty important defensive position??? (not to say that they all aren't important, but some are just, well, more important)

Now all of a sudden we want to take a former second baseman, who played one year in left and hand him the reins of center. And if that doesn't work we want to take an effective shortstop and move him up there.

 

I don't just get it??? Is this all to make sure there's room for Pie?

 

Defense doesn't matter. :lol:

 

Petition to ban rolleyes because I'm really tempted to use it.

 

 

No one ever said defense doesn't matter.

 

I wish that were the case.

 

Will this be the thread where you finally use evidence to support your claim?

 

no quotes allowed!

 

No, like always he dissapears when someone asks him to provide tangible support. It's easier than actually having proof for your statements.

 

What the hell are you talking about? I really don't feel like looking for the direct quote. The discussion was on how I believe pitching and defense wins championships. When I mentioned defense was very important for a team success towards winning a championship, this individual said defense does not matter.

[Vinestal]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

[NoDak]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

My thought is that no championship can be won by a team that never catches a single ball because they will give up an almost infinite number of runs--certainly more than any offense could score. While theoretically possible it is practically impossible. So, yes, defense does matter. As another poster pointed out it does not make as much difference as offensive contributions and pitching contributions.

 

You are correct that there is not a good way to quantify how much defense does help a team toward victories and that on this board there is a "bias" (and I believe a well placed bias) toward that which can be quantified and "counted." There was a study done once using computer simulations to see how much defense could affect won/loss records. I am going from memory here so this may not be exact but it took something like an average of 4 errors per game to have a statistically significant affect on the won/loss record. In current terms that would be an average of 648 errors per season! No team even approaches that. While defense is more than just errors vs non-errors this does give an indication of just how bad a team would need to be defensively to seriously affect won/loss percentage.

 

Another argument could be that pennants are won and lost by "statistically insignificant margins all the time." While this is true trying to account for them will drive you insane in a hurry. Weather will have an effect too, injuries, "fluke plays" etc.

 

There is something about baseball that defies quantification. Fluke things will happen and result in unusual circumstances. However, by definition you cannot "plan" for fluke events. A team is far wiser to positively manipulate that which can be "controled" and this will result in far more wins.

 

For instance, there was Neifi Perez grand slam in extra innings vs STL in 2005. That was, in my estimation, a fluke event. When it happened it was actually used by people as justification for having Neifi on the team. He provided a win over a rival team and in dramatic fashion. While this play did result in a win in a game which otherwise may have been lost his inability in nearly EVERY other instance, I feel, was a major drag on the offense

 

In short, all other things being equal I will take the player with better defensive skills. But it is EXTREMELY rare to find two players who are so equal so I choose (as I would guess many on this board would) to look at things other than "defense" in evaluating a player or a team. I usually look at offensive production (or pitching production as the case may be), age, experience, history, injuries (speaking of hard to quantify!), etc.

 

So defense does matter, but not very much.

 

(Sorry this got so long!!!)

[Warpticon]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

That's not really the case. Run production and run prevention are equally important. The thing is, at the major league level, the vast majority of run prevention occurs on the mound, as the difference between the best and worst major league fielders at a given position is relatively small, especially when compared to the difference between the best and worst hitters at the same position. So, when choosing a player, defense should be given some consideration, but much more consideration should be given to his offensive skill set, as that's where he's much more likely to be beneficial, with very rare exception.

[Vinestal]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

That's not really the case. Run production and run prevention are equally important. The thing is, at the major league level, the vast majority of run prevention occurs on the mound, as the difference between the best and worst major league fielders at a given position is relatively small, especially when compared to the difference between the best and worst hitters at the same position. So, when choosing a player, defense should be given some consideration, but much more consideration should be given to his offensive skill set, as that's where he's much more likely to be beneficial, with very rare exception.

 

Yup, that makes solid sense. People shouldnt say that defense doesn't matter though. I believe middle infield/outfield range can make a large impact on hits/runs that a pitcher may or may not give up. More than most people think. Its not something that you can debate with stats though.

[Careless]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

That's not really the case. Run production and run prevention are equally important. The thing is, at the major league level, the vast majority of run prevention occurs on the mound, as the difference between the best and worst major league fielders at a given position is relatively small, especially when compared to the difference between the best and worst hitters at the same position. So, when choosing a player, defense should be given some consideration, but much more consideration should be given to his offensive skill set, as that's where he's much more likely to be beneficial, with very rare exception.

 

Yup, that makes solid sense. People shouldnt say that defense doesn't matter though. I believe middle infield/outfield range can make a large impact on hits/runs that a pitcher may or may not give up. More than most people think. Its not something that you can debate with stats though.

Which is why no one says that except in that baseball guy's imagination.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

That's not really the case. Run production and run prevention are equally important. The thing is, at the major league level, the vast majority of run prevention occurs on the mound, as the difference between the best and worst major league fielders at a given position is relatively small, especially when compared to the difference between the best and worst hitters at the same position. So, when choosing a player, defense should be given some consideration, but much more consideration should be given to his offensive skill set, as that's where he's much more likely to be beneficial, with very rare exception.

 

Warp's post sums it up. Defense matters, but when choosing between two second basemen or two centerfielders, ot two third basemen, or two catchers, the difference between the better hitters is likely greater than the difference between the two defenders. So, when making a choice, I'm likely to look only at offensive production.

 

Moving players to a new defensive position throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing.

 

While in lower levels of baseball, there is a greater descrepancy between defenders and bad defense often makes a larger difference in games. By the time players get to the major leagues, they likely are able to handle the defensive position which they man.

 

If you gave me two players with similar offensive production and one is a better defender, I'd obviously take the better defender. But, on the other hand, if there are two players, one is a better defender and the other is a better hitter, I'll go with the better hitter almost every time.

 

Now, if it involves moving a player out of position, then I might hesitate to take the better hitter over a player out of position.

[NoDak]

If you gave me two players with similar offensive production and one is a better defender, I'd obviously take the better defender. But, on the other hand, if there are two players, one is a better defender and the other is a better hitter, I'll go with the better hitter almost every time.

 

How similar would they have to be for defense to tip the scales, just out of curiosity?

[CuseCubFan69]

If you gave me two players with similar offensive production and one is a better defender, I'd obviously take the better defender. But, on the other hand, if there are two players, one is a better defender and the other is a better hitter, I'll go with the better hitter almost every time.

 

How similar would they have to be for defense to tip the scales, just out of curiosity?

 

That's why they have a plus/minus system in hockey and I think somebody posted something simular to that before because I asked the same exact question.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

That's not really the case. Run production and run prevention are equally important. The thing is, at the major league level, the vast majority of run prevention occurs on the mound, as the difference between the best and worst major league fielders at a given position is relatively small, especially when compared to the difference between the best and worst hitters at the same position. So, when choosing a player, defense should be given some consideration, but much more consideration should be given to his offensive skill set, as that's where he's much more likely to be beneficial, with very rare exception.

 

Yup, that makes solid sense. People shouldnt say that defense doesn't matter though. I believe middle infield/outfield range can make a large impact on hits/runs that a pitcher may or may not give up. More than most people think. Its not something that you can debate with stats though.

 

But no one has said defense doesn't matter!

[Vinestal]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

That's not really the case. Run production and run prevention are equally important. The thing is, at the major league level, the vast majority of run prevention occurs on the mound, as the difference between the best and worst major league fielders at a given position is relatively small, especially when compared to the difference between the best and worst hitters at the same position. So, when choosing a player, defense should be given some consideration, but much more consideration should be given to his offensive skill set, as that's where he's much more likely to be beneficial, with very rare exception.

 

Yup, that makes solid sense. People shouldnt say that defense doesn't matter though. I believe middle infield/outfield range can make a large impact on hits/runs that a pitcher may or may not give up. More than most people think. Its not something that you can debate with stats though.

 

But no one has said defense doesn't matter!

 

Oh, sorry lol I guess I was seeing things.

[Magnetic Curses]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

maybe because stopping runs is more contingent upon pitching than defense.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Defense does indeed matter. Stoping runs can be just as valueble as producing them, though there is no way of quantifying the ablility one guy has over another to stop runs with stats, so alot of posters here ignore it completely. If you cant back your statements with SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, ERA, ERA+, WHIP or some other type of offensive or pitching stat your written off as a loon. *sigh*

 

That's not really the case. Run production and run prevention are equally important. The thing is, at the major league level, the vast majority of run prevention occurs on the mound, as the difference between the best and worst major league fielders at a given position is relatively small, especially when compared to the difference between the best and worst hitters at the same position. So, when choosing a player, defense should be given some consideration, but much more consideration should be given to his offensive skill set, as that's where he's much more likely to be beneficial, with very rare exception.

 

Yup, that makes solid sense. People shouldnt say that defense doesn't matter though. I believe middle infield/outfield range can make a large impact on hits/runs that a pitcher may or may not give up. More than most people think. Its not something that you can debate with stats though.

 

But no one has said defense doesn't matter!

 

Oh, sorry lol I guess I was seeing things.

 

Nah, you're not. Baseball7897 said earlier in this thread that some of the folks here say defense doesn't matter...but no one has said that.

[nilodnayr]

 

Nah, you're not. Baseball7897 said earlier in this thread that some of the folks here say defense doesn't matter...but no one has said that.

 

I wouldn't doubt that someone here in the history of the board has said that somewhere. But most likely Baseball7897 needs to look up the definition of hyperbole.

[Rob]

 

Nah, you're not. Baseball7897 said earlier in this thread that some of the folks here say defense doesn't matter...but no one has said that.

 

I wouldn't doubt that someone here in the history of the board has said that somewhere. But most likely Baseball7897 needs to look up the definition of hyperbole.

 

I imagine it was something to the effect of...

 

"Compared to what kind of an impact he can make on this offense, his defense doesn't matter."

 

"Defense doesn't matter as much for a left fielder."

 

"This guy has a pretty solid glove on defense. Doesn't matter that he has a hard time on plays in the hole."

[badger1679666666]

Any new/updated rumors on the Lugo front?

[killthegoat06]

Any new/updated rumors on the Lugo front?

 

Just the thing on BenMaller.com posted earlier.

"Julio Lugo may take longer, though the Red Sox have clearly signaled their desire for the former Devil Rays shortstop, who had a .373 on-base percentage before being dealt to the Dodgers in midseason. The Giants and Cubs, along with the Orioles, are teams with interest, in addition to the Sox, and the Dodgers are expected to offer Lugo arbitration."

 

Hopefully this is for shortstop and not for CF to replace Jones.

[killthegoat06]

I don't have ESPN Insider, but I think that they're rumor central says that we made Lugo a multiyear offer.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Here's what Insider had to say:

 

Toronto's pursuit of Julio Lugo ended when the Blue Jays signed Royce Clayton to a one-year deal. But the Cubs remain interested and have made Lugo a multi-year offer, according to ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick.

Boston is looking at Lugo to replace departed shortstop Alex Gonzalez, and San Francisco continues to maintain a line of communication with Lugo's agents. While the Giants are looking at Rich Aurilia, Mark Loretta and Ray Durham as second base possibilities, they've talked about signing Lugo to play second and eventually shifting him to shortstop when Omar Vizquel retires.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I have a feeling the contract (dollars per) and the club's intentions (CF) are going to make me quite ill.

[Bruce Miles]

I could tell you no offer has been made (remember, Lugo bats right-handed and the Cubs haven't exhausted LH possibilities yet), and it would be true, but I remember how much fun that was the other day with Schmidt.

[Andy]

I could tell you no offer has been made (remember, Lugo bats right-handed and the Cubs haven't exhausted LH possibilities yet), and it would be true, but I remember how much fun that was the other day with Schmidt.

I can't see the Cubs wanting Lugo so it's easy for me to buy this even though it's probably a crock. :wink:

 

(Just kidding Bruce!)

[wade]

I could tell you no offer has been made (remember, Lugo bats right-handed and the Cubs haven't exhausted LH possibilities yet), and it would be true, but I remember how much fun that was the other day with Schmidt.

 

Do you think they will look for a lefty shortstop, or a lefty CF and deal Jones?

Edited November 30, 2006 by wade