Fox Sports: Ramirez SIGNS WITH CUBS!

[TruffleShuffle]

But when it comes to people making 10 million or 15 million it doesn't change their lifestyles at all. Those are the ones who trully have a choice where they work and go wherever they would be happiest.

 

Also, don't forget that the career of a major league ballplayer usually is less than 10 years, or even in the case of good players, usually less than 15. Yes, they can earn money from autograph signings and stuff after they retire, and some go on to become TV commentators or coaches, but that doesn't pay nearly as well. If they want to live like a very rich person for their entire life, they probably should take the highest offer, especially if there's a difference of more than $2-3M per year.

 

Lets say they keep 20 million in a standard savings acount. Assuming someone like ARamis is going ot make about 90 million over six is highly probably. If it is at about what 4% interest could be wrong but if it is 4% they woudl be making about 800,000 a year for the rest of their lives. I'm pretty sure than can live a great life off of that.

 

Again, they'd be making a life off $800,000 when they'd been used to living like someone making $15 million.. Plus, they're losing half the $15M to the government and another 10 percent to their agent. Most people that rich give fairly generously to charity, and many support their extended families. Of course people who make less than $100K will look at $800K and say "hey you can make a great living off that." But when you've been taking home $7M per year during your playing career, your perspective on $800K has to be very different.

[BDWeav71]

The ones making the most money are typically the most greedy. They are typically more likely to accept a $15M vs $10M deal than me choosing my $55K over a $60K offer on the other side of town. I've spent years around the mega rich (one of them Warren Buffet)

 

 

I get your point and all, but isn't Warren Buffet the guy who just gave away nearly 90% of his total net worth to charity? Something like 34 billion dollars to the Bill Gates Foundation?

 

Anyways, i just wanted to add in to the discussion since ive been a long time lurker on this board..I hope all of this discussion dealing with Ramirez looking for a 6th year and nearly 100 million dollars is just leverage to try and get the Cubs to ante up on their end. I don't want to lose Ramirez, but at 6 years and 90+ million it is getting harder and harder justifying signing him for that. Just my two cents, look forward to more posting in the future!

[jmajew]

But when it comes to people making 10 million or 15 million it doesn't change their lifestyles at all. Those are the ones who trully have a choice where they work and go wherever they would be happiest.

 

Also, don't forget that the career of a major league ballplayer usually is less than 10 years, or even in the case of good players, usually less than 15. Yes, they can earn money from autograph signings and stuff after they retire, and some go on to become TV commentators or coaches, but that doesn't pay nearly as well. If they want to live like a very rich person for their entire life, they probably should take the highest offer, especially if there's a difference of more than $2-3M per year.

 

Lets say they keep 20 million in a standard savings acount. Assuming someone like ARamis is going ot make about 90 million over six is highly probably. If it is at about what 4% interest could be wrong but if it is 4% they woudl be making about 800,000 a year for the rest of their lives. I'm pretty sure than can live a great life off of that.

 

Again, they'd be making a life off $800,000 when they'd been used to living like someone making $15 million.. Plus, they're losing half the $15M to the government and another 10 percent to their agent. Most people that rich give fairly generously to charity, and many support their extended families. Of course people who make less than $100K will look at $800K and say "hey you can make a great living off that." But when you've been taking home $7M per year during your playing career, your perspective on $800K has to be very different.

 

But if you buy off a house and pay off the mortage which they should be able to do. That 800,000 should be able to pay for all of their expenses for a 20 million dollar house and couple of yachts for the rest of their lives.

 

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

[Yeti]

I get your point and all, but isn't Warren Buffet the guy who just gave away nearly 90% of his total net worth to charity? Something like 34 billion dollars to the Bill Gates Foundation?

 

Anyways, i just wanted to add in to the discussion since ive been a long time lurker on this board..I hope all of this discussion dealing with Ramirez looking for a 6th year and nearly 100 million dollars is just leverage to try and get the Cubs to ante up on their end. I don't want to lose Ramirez, but at 6 years and 90+ million it is getting harder and harder justifying signing him for that. Just my two cents, look forward to more posting in the future!

 

welcome to the board

[jmajew]

The ones making the most money are typically the most greedy. They are typically more likely to accept a $15M vs $10M deal than me choosing my $55K over a $60K offer on the other side of town. I've spent years around the mega rich (one of them Warren Buffet)

 

 

I get your point and all, but isn't Warren Buffet the guy who just gave away nearly 90% of his total net worth to charity? Something like 34 billion dollars to the Bill Gates Foundation?

 

Anyways, i just wanted to add in to the discussion since ive been a long time lurker on this board..I hope all of this discussion dealing with Ramirez looking for a 6th year and nearly 100 million dollars is just leverage to try and get the Cubs to ante up on their end. I don't want to lose Ramirez, but at 6 years and 90+ million it is getting harder and harder justifying signing him for that. Just my two cents, look forward to more posting in the future!

 

Welcome to the Board.

[David]

I'm not mad that Ramirez is leaving. I expected it all along. The rule of the Cubs since 1908 is what can go wrong will go wrong

 

Fixed.

[TruffleShuffle]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

[jmajew]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

 

I meant hurts us with regard as players leaving our favorite teams and thus making them even worse.

[Shilzzz]

well. this thread went from really interesting to carp real quick.

 

WHO CARES HOW MUCH MONEY HE ASKS FOR?

 

it's easy to sit at work and say woo woo woo it's alot of money they should be happy. it's great. really makes you look like a humanitarian. the idea that hey, let's just lose him to free agency; if (insert greedy local ballplayer) isn't going to take (insert years of contract offered by local ballclub and/or dollars offered by said local ballclub) then he should just get out of town.

 

well, here's the reality check.

 

if aramis ramirez leaves the cubs, the cubs lose next year. who are you going to replace him with? the japanese kid will be okay, but the cubs lose a power hitter there, so where is the power coming from? soriano? carlos lee? is hendry really going to pay either one of those 'beltran money' but not pay ramirez what he is asking? and even if they go that route there is no real improvent over what is an abyssmal(sp) offense.

 

so yes, if aramis wants the big bucks the cubs certainly don't have to pay him, but if they aren't going to do that then where does that leave the team over the next three years?

[TruffleShuffle]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

 

I meant hurts us with regard as players leaving our favorite teams and thus making them even worse.

 

well yeah, except the cubs are going to be bad regardless of whether they resign aramis

[jmajew]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

 

I meant hurts us with regard as players leaving our favorite teams and thus making them even worse.

 

well yeah, except the cubs are going to be bad regardless of whether they resign aramis

 

Since we both agree that will probably be the case if we sign Aramis, is there even a reason to sign him? If the Cubs are gonna be bad with him wouldn't it be better to be bad without him and start a fullout rebuilding mode ala the Marlins?

 

I still say offer Aramis 6/90 if he doesn't take it oh well. The whole point about my argument about money is pretty simple. Teams have to work around a payroll. If a few guys eat up a good portion of your payroll you can't really improve your team enough through free agency. They only way you can 5 players eat up about 75 million dollars of your payroll is if you have a lot of good homegrown talent.

 

You have to look at it this way. If we sign Aramis to 6/100 like he wants that is 16.667 million. We already have Lee in for 13 mil a year. You have to assume Zambrano will make about 15 million a year if we sign him to an extension. That will leave us with another 30 millioin dollars to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, Schmidt, Zito. Then we will have to fillup the other 20 spots on our roster for under 30 million. I just don't see how it is possible to build a contender that way.

 

If Aramis trully wanted to be here and win he would take less money knowing that in order to win we would need all the money we can to build a winner.

[Shilzzz]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

 

I meant hurts us with regard as players leaving our favorite teams and thus making them even worse.

 

well yeah, except the cubs are going to be bad regardless of whether they resign aramis

 

Since we both agree that will probably be the case if we sign Aramis, is there even a reason to sign him? If the Cubs are gonna be bad with him wouldn't it be better to be bad without him and start a fullout rebuilding mode ala the Marlins?

 

I still say offer Aramis 6/90 if he doesn't take it oh well. The whole point about my argument about money is pretty simple. Teams have to work around a payroll. If a few guys eat up a good portion of your payroll you can't really improve your team enough through free agency. They only way you can 5 players eat up about 75 million dollars of your payroll is if you have a lot of good homegrown talent.

 

You have to look at it this way. If we sign Aramis to 6/100 like he wants that is 16.667 million. We already have Lee in for 13 mil a year. You have to assume Zambrano will make about 15 million a year if we sign him to an extension. That will leave us with another 30 millioin dollars to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, Schmidt, Zito. Then we will have to fillup the other 20 spots on our roster for under 30 million. I just don't see how it is possible to build a contender that way.

 

If Aramis trully wanted to be here and win he would take less money knowing that in order to win he would need all the money we can to build winner.

 

the part about the marlins is asinine. who do we trade to get the type of players that the marlins recieved via trade? zambrano? lee? that's fine, but is hendry really going to do that considering what has happened since 2003?

 

and the money you are talking about doesn't really make sense either. +/- 17 + 13+ 15 = 45 + 30 = 75 million. the cubs were talking early on in the offseason about bringing the payroll to somewhere around 115 million.

[BigbadB]

I'm not sure how you can fault a player for wanting to get as much as he can. A very small percentage of people have the ability to earn that kind of money, and if there is someone willing to pay them, why shouldn't they make themselves available? Aramis owes nothing to the Cubs ownership. They offered him a deal and he accepted that deal. The Cubs got good value for that deal.

 

When Aramis is 37 or 38 and can no longer be productive in MLB, he will need all that money to live for the rest of his life. He doesn't have a college education to fall back on during hard times. What her earns during the life of his baseball career will possibly have to last the rest of his life. He might be thinking about making sure his kids are comfortable as well.

 

Sports figures don't have things as easy as the average joe. We can walk out of a diner with a $.50 cent tip for a cup of coffee. Aramis would be labeled a cheap skate if he dropped less than $10.00 for a tip. And of course, the government definitely gets a healthy portion of their salary.

 

No need to feel sorry for him, of course. I'd love to be able to play baseball for a living. But, I can't blame him for hunting around for the best offers and the best conditions for his services.

 

I see absolutely no reason to turn him away due to years, however. Is Aramis going to be a shell of his former self in 6 years. Probably not. Manny Ramirez is just about as productive at 34 as he was at 28. Sammy Sosa was more productive at 34 than he was at 28.

 

But, I have zero faith that Hendry values Ramirez as much as I do. Hendry seemed like he would go a ridiculous amount of years for a much less productive player like Rafael Furcal, a guy who has never even been a Cub before and a guy who has had some off field issues.

 

Just give him the money. And get it done before Saturday night. Someone WILL give it to him.

[jmajew]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

 

I meant hurts us with regard as players leaving our favorite teams and thus making them even worse.

 

well yeah, except the cubs are going to be bad regardless of whether they resign aramis

 

Since we both agree that will probably be the case if we sign Aramis, is there even a reason to sign him? If the Cubs are gonna be bad with him wouldn't it be better to be bad without him and start a fullout rebuilding mode ala the Marlins?

 

I still say offer Aramis 6/90 if he doesn't take it oh well. The whole point about my argument about money is pretty simple. Teams have to work around a payroll. If a few guys eat up a good portion of your payroll you can't really improve your team enough through free agency. They only way you can 5 players eat up about 75 million dollars of your payroll is if you have a lot of good homegrown talent.

 

You have to look at it this way. If we sign Aramis to 6/100 like he wants that is 16.667 million. We already have Lee in for 13 mil a year. You have to assume Zambrano will make about 15 million a year if we sign him to an extension. That will leave us with another 30 millioin dollars to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, Schmidt, Zito. Then we will have to fillup the other 20 spots on our roster for under 30 million. I just don't see how it is possible to build a contender that way.

 

If Aramis trully wanted to be here and win he would take less money knowing that in order to win he would need all the money we can to build winner.

 

the part about the marlins is asinine. who do we trade to get the type of players that the marlins recieved via trade? zambrano? lee? that's fine, but is hendry really going to do that considering what has happened since 2003?

 

and the money you are talking about doesn't really make sense either. +/- 17 + 13+ 15 = 45 + 30 = 75 million. the cubs were talking early on in the offseason about bringing the payroll to somewhere around 115 million.

 

yeah that leaves us anotehr 30 million to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, schmidt, and Zito like i said. Which would add up to 115 million, which is exactly like I said.

[USSoccer]

You have to overpay for talent. You want to field a team full of reasonably priced players, you'll get a losing season nearly every time.

 

If the market for Aramis is Beltran money, then you pay him Beltran money because there isn't another player out there you can get as good as he is.

 

The Cub payroll is going to be $115 million. Aramis at $17m isn't going to kill them; it's going to mean they can't waste money on unproductive bench players. Heaven forbid that happen. Aramis already makes $11m now. We can't find another $6m per in the budget to get him to stay?

 

His contract shouldn't prevent the team from improving itself. Heck, don't resign Blanco, and you're nearly halfway there.

Edited November 11, 2006 by USSoccer

[Shilzzz]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

 

I meant hurts us with regard as players leaving our favorite teams and thus making them even worse.

 

well yeah, except the cubs are going to be bad regardless of whether they resign aramis

 

Since we both agree that will probably be the case if we sign Aramis, is there even a reason to sign him? If the Cubs are gonna be bad with him wouldn't it be better to be bad without him and start a fullout rebuilding mode ala the Marlins?

 

I still say offer Aramis 6/90 if he doesn't take it oh well. The whole point about my argument about money is pretty simple. Teams have to work around a payroll. If a few guys eat up a good portion of your payroll you can't really improve your team enough through free agency. They only way you can 5 players eat up about 75 million dollars of your payroll is if you have a lot of good homegrown talent.

 

You have to look at it this way. If we sign Aramis to 6/100 like he wants that is 16.667 million. We already have Lee in for 13 mil a year. You have to assume Zambrano will make about 15 million a year if we sign him to an extension. That will leave us with another 30 millioin dollars to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, Schmidt, Zito. Then we will have to fillup the other 20 spots on our roster for under 30 million. I just don't see how it is possible to build a contender that way.

 

If Aramis trully wanted to be here and win he would take less money knowing that in order to win he would need all the money we can to build winner.

 

the part about the marlins is asinine. who do we trade to get the type of players that the marlins recieved via trade? zambrano? lee? that's fine, but is hendry really going to do that considering what has happened since 2003?

 

and the money you are talking about doesn't really make sense either. +/- 17 + 13+ 15 = 45 + 30 = 75 million. the cubs were talking early on in the offseason about bringing the payroll to somewhere around 115 million.

 

yeah that leaves us anotehr 30 million to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, schmidt, and Zito like i said. Which would add up to 115 million, which is exactly like I said.

 

well that's still 105, but whatever you win.

 

that still doesn't answer the more important question i posed: how do you rebuild like the marlins did in the situation the cubs are in? and do you really think that hendry is the man to do an efficient job of that? even if you trade lee and zambrano for several studs we would be lucky to get one player that ends up as productive as ramirez is now. why not just pay the man?

[Sammy Sofa]

The next person that posts anything besides actual news or rumors gets an e-punch to the e-teeth.

[BigbadB]

even if you trade lee and zambrano for several studs we would be lucky to get one player that ends up as productive as ramirez is now. why not just pay the man?

 

Exactly.

[treebird]

You have to overpay for talent. You want to field a team full of reasonably priced players, you'll get a losing season nearly every time.

 

If the market for Aramis is Beltran money, then you pay him Beltran money because there isn't another player out there you can get as good as he is.

 

The Cub payroll is going to be $115 million. Aramis at $17m isn't going to kill them; it's going to mean they can't waste money on unproductive bench players. Heaven forbid that happen. Aramis already makes $11m now. We can't find another $6m per in the budget to get him to stay?

 

His contract shouldn't prevent the team from improving itself. Heck, don't resign Blanco, and you're nearly halfway there.

 

exactly. everyone always says that contracts like rusch's aren't the problem with the cubs. if that's the case, tossing another 3 million a year towards aramis shouldn't be a tough decision at all.

[jmajew]

But there is no use to even bother talking about this. People can do what they want to do. And it doesn't effect any of us other than the fact it hurts us as fans.

 

It does? Doesn't hurt me.

 

I meant hurts us with regard as players leaving our favorite teams and thus making them even worse.

 

well yeah, except the cubs are going to be bad regardless of whether they resign aramis

 

Since we both agree that will probably be the case if we sign Aramis, is there even a reason to sign him? If the Cubs are gonna be bad with him wouldn't it be better to be bad without him and start a fullout rebuilding mode ala the Marlins?

 

I still say offer Aramis 6/90 if he doesn't take it oh well. The whole point about my argument about money is pretty simple. Teams have to work around a payroll. If a few guys eat up a good portion of your payroll you can't really improve your team enough through free agency. They only way you can 5 players eat up about 75 million dollars of your payroll is if you have a lot of good homegrown talent.

 

You have to look at it this way. If we sign Aramis to 6/100 like he wants that is 16.667 million. We already have Lee in for 13 mil a year. You have to assume Zambrano will make about 15 million a year if we sign him to an extension. That will leave us with another 30 millioin dollars to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, Schmidt, Zito. Then we will have to fillup the other 20 spots on our roster for under 30 million. I just don't see how it is possible to build a contender that way.

 

If Aramis trully wanted to be here and win he would take less money knowing that in order to win he would need all the money we can to build winner.

 

the part about the marlins is asinine. who do we trade to get the type of players that the marlins recieved via trade? zambrano? lee? that's fine, but is hendry really going to do that considering what has happened since 2003?

 

and the money you are talking about doesn't really make sense either. +/- 17 + 13+ 15 = 45 + 30 = 75 million. the cubs were talking early on in the offseason about bringing the payroll to somewhere around 115 million.

 

yeah that leaves us anotehr 30 million to sign two of Drew, Lee, Soriano, schmidt, and Zito like i said. Which would add up to 115 million, which is exactly like I said.

 

well that's still 105, but whatever you win.

 

that still doesn't answer the more important question i posed: how do you rebuild like the marlins did in the situation the cubs are in? and do you really think that hendry is the man to do an efficient job of that? even if you trade lee and zambrano for several studs we would be lucky to get one player that ends up as productive as ramirez is now. why not just pay the man?

 

Sorry bad math. I'm an idiot. :oops:

 

But if we can have those 5 guys at 75 million it is still hard to build a winner unless you have good young or cheap talent. Our farm system is pretty bad so I don't have faith that that can be used to fill the holes and I don't have faith in Hendry to sign good cheap veteran ballplayers to fill those holes. 40 million is still not enough for the final 20 players on the roster with Hendry as our GM and with guys like Dempster, Barrett, Jones, and Izturis compiling about half of it. So essentially we'd have about 21-22 million for the final 16 spots. I see no way we can contend next year if we sign a bunch of free agents.

 

Edit: I've been trying to say what Treeman just posted. Aramis should get 6/90 maybe even 6/100 however, because of the deep hole we are in right now because of bad contracts for mediocore players I don't know if signing him and another big bat and a pitcher is the way to go. Signing Aramis and waiting another year once some bad contracts are gone to go for the Series is probably the way to go.

[Shilzzz]

 

Sorry bad math. I'm an idiot. :oops:

 

But if we can have those 5 guys at 75 million it is still hard to build a winner unless you have good young or cheap talent. Our farm system is pretty bad so I don't have faith that that can be used to fill the holes and I don't have faith in Hendry to sign good cheap veteran ballplayers to fill those holes. 40 million is still not enough for the final 20 players on the roster with Hendry as our GM and with guys like Dempster, Barrett, Jones, and Izturis compiling about half of it. So essentially we'd have about 21-22 million for the final 16 spots. I see no way we can contend next year if we sign a bunch of free agents.

 

Edit: I've been trying to say what Treeman just posted. Aramis should get 6/90 maybe even 6/100 however, because of the deep hole we are in right now because of bad contracts for mediocore players I don't know if signing him and another big bat and a pitcher is the way to go. Signing Aramis and waiting another year once some bad contracts are gone to go for the Series is probably the way to go.

 

well then ultimately you see no way we can contend next year at all. which is not bad in and of itself, but the problem here is that the cubs management has been and will continue to be completely inept at recognizing problems then making a plan to overcome those so long as the same figureheads remain. so what is the answer? the only way we ever come close with hendry in charge is to pay aramis that money, hope glendon retires(bad as that sounds), and a few other things fall into place.

 

lovely world we cub fans live in ain't it?

 

sorry if i came off harsh, but in my opinion you were making aramis out to be a greedy monster, and i just can't believe that to be the case.

[CUBZ99]

With all of the Stat Gurus on this board, can anyone quantify how much Aramis' value is to a team? For example, Aramis = ?? number of victories over 3B (insert Lowell, Huff, Moore.....) It seems that $17MM on any one offense player is pretty excessive and probably money not very well spent.

 

If Hendry takes the money he will save from Aramis and signs or trades for two top of the rotation starters, I won't be disappointed one bit. I realize that will never happen, but I would much rather he focus on getting together a great rotation, than worrying about offense.

[CubinNY]

With all of the Stat Gurus on this board, can anyone quantify how much Aramis' value is to a team? For example, Aramis = ?? number of victories over 3B (insert Lowell, Huff, Moore.....) It seems that $17MM on any one offense player is pretty excessive and probably money not very well spent.

 

If Hendry takes the money he will save from Aramis and signs or trades for two top of the rotation starters, I won't be disappointed one bit. I realize that will never happen, but I would much rather he focus on getting together a great rotation, than worrying about offense.

 

Starting pitchers are the most overpayed player on the team if one goes by production for the relative to other players. A SP will only play in about 30 or so games a season.

 

The Cubs offense is in much, much worse shape then it's pitching staff.

 

EDIT: But getting aramis and getting two top of the line SP are not mutually exclusive. They can do both.

[Shilzzz]

 

EDIT: But getting aramis and getting two top of the line SP are not mutually exclusive. They can do both.

 

that's the ticket.

[10man]

the reason Aramis got himself an agent is so that he has someone who will get him the best possible deal and that includes getting top dollar. some ask what's the difference between $10M and $15M since someone making either amount won't have their lifestyle changed as opposed to someone getting an offer of $75K vs. $65K. i say this really has nothing to do with the amount of money but rather how a person looks at money (read: attitude towards dollars).

 

How a person values money when the amounts are still small is the same way that person will value money when the amounts are so much bigger.

 

If you are willing to hold out on a 50 dollar offer to wait for a 60 dollar offer then you will also hold out on a 13 million offer if you can get a 16 million offer. the amounts will change but the attitude is generally the same.

 

i once heard a millionaire being asked: "How much is enough?"

He promptly answered: "Just a little bit more".

Funny but that's human nature.