Once Again Pitching Rules

[baseball7897]

I bet if we all think really hard and remember back to...oh, let's say 2003, we can think of a seven-game series where a team with three young dominant starters didn't win the series, where a few unpredictable things happened.

 

Let's not forget how that 03 Cubs team made the playoffs. PITCHING

 

They were fourth in the NL in pitching and middle of the pack in offense. Their offense played more of a role than you'd like to give them credit for. Don't believe me? The Dodgers had a major league best 3.16 team ERA that season. The next closest was Seattle at 3.76...that's how much better LA's staff was than everyone else (for the record, the Cubs were at 3.83). And they didn't make the postseason, finishing 15.5 games out of first in their division. Want to know why? They had one of the worst offenses in baseball that year.

 

I'm not arguing that you need offense more than pitching, although you seem to think I am. I'm arguing that you need both.

 

I know you need hitting to win. Pitching, however, plays a bigger role in your chances of winning a world series.

 

The Houston Astros were second in baseball in team era. Their offense was one of the worst that year. They made the world series because their pitching was so dominant.

[baseball7897]

Let me see if I have this right. Good pitching wins in the playoffs, except this year when worse pitchers pitch better than the good ones. But that's because they weren't clutch enough and made errors.

 

Maybe, just maybe, sometimes good pitching beats good hitting, and sometimes good hitting beats good pitching. That's why it's good to aim for both, because when you make the playoffs and your season comes down to 4-7 games you can't really plan for short cold streaks from either.

 

I remember being laughed at for believing defense played a major role on your chances of winning. This world series showed why defense is very important.

[b_wiggy_66]

These arguments are going nowhere. I started this thread to show that Jim Hendry needs to put pitching as his number one priority. Winning a championship takes good pitching, timely hitting, solid defense, and a lot of things to go right. Just like in football they say defense wins championships, 9 out of 10 people will tell you that pitching wins champs. in baseball. Go get pitching and some hitting Jim. With pitching being priority number 1.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

These arguments are going nowhere. I started this thread to show that Jim Hendry needs to put pitching as his number one priority. Winning a championship takes good pitching, timely hitting, solid defense, and a lot of things to go right. Just like in football they say defense wins championships, 9 out of 10 people will tell you that pitching wins champs. in baseball. Go get pitching and some hitting Jim. With pitching being priority number 1.

 

Where's the proof that pitching is more important than hitting?

[baseball7897]

These arguments are going nowhere. I started this thread to show that Jim Hendry needs to put pitching as his number one priority. Winning a championship takes good pitching, timely hitting, solid defense, and a lot of things to go right. Just like in football they say defense wins championships, 9 out of 10 people will tell you that pitching wins champs. in baseball. Go get pitching and some hitting Jim. With pitching being priority number 1.

 

Where's the proof that pitching is more important than hitting?

 

I think the 06 Yankees are a good example. They had a really good offense, but their pitching was suspect the majority of the year.

[fromthestretch]

I bet if we all think really hard and remember back to...oh, let's say 2003, we can think of a seven-game series where a team with three young dominant starters didn't win the series, where a few unpredictable things happened.

 

Let's not forget how that 03 Cubs team made the playoffs. PITCHING

 

They were fourth in the NL in pitching and middle of the pack in offense. Their offense played more of a role than you'd like to give them credit for. Don't believe me? The Dodgers had a major league best 3.16 team ERA that season. The next closest was Seattle at 3.76...that's how much better LA's staff was than everyone else (for the record, the Cubs were at 3.83). And they didn't make the postseason, finishing 15.5 games out of first in their division. Want to know why? They had one of the worst offenses in baseball that year.

 

I'm not arguing that you need offense more than pitching, although you seem to think I am. I'm arguing that you need both.

 

I know you need hitting to win. Pitching, however, plays a bigger role in your chances of winning a world series.

 

The Houston Astros were second in baseball in team era. Their offense was one of the worst that year. They made the world series because their pitching was so dominant.

 

The Cubs improved from the fourth-best pitching staff in 2003 to the second-best pitching in the NL in 2004, and didn't make the playoffs.

 

In a short-series, yes, dominant pitching is a nice thing to have. Pitching doesn't always get you to the playoffs.

[soccer10k]

These arguments are going nowhere. I started this thread to show that Jim Hendry needs to put pitching as his number one priority. Winning a championship takes good pitching, timely hitting, solid defense, and a lot of things to go right. Just like in football they say defense wins championships, 9 out of 10 people will tell you that pitching wins champs. in baseball. Go get pitching and some hitting Jim. With pitching being priority number 1.

 

9 out of 10 people will tell you that BA is a very important stat. 9 out of 10 people will tell you wins are the best way to evaluate pitchers. 9 out of 10 people will probably tell you Derek Jeter is the key to the New York Yankees offense. Does that make them right?

[fromthestretch]

These arguments are going nowhere. I started this thread to show that Jim Hendry needs to put pitching as his number one priority. Winning a championship takes good pitching, timely hitting, solid defense, and a lot of things to go right. Just like in football they say defense wins championships, 9 out of 10 people will tell you that pitching wins champs. in baseball. Go get pitching and some hitting Jim. With pitching being priority number 1.

 

9 out of 10 people will tell you that BA is a very important stat. 9 out of 10 people will tell you wins are the best way to evaluate pitchers. 9 out of 10 people will probably tell you Derek Jeter is the key to the New York Yankees offense. Does that make them right?

 

Four out of five dentists agree.

[Outshined_One]

This thread makes my head hurt.

[indifferent]

This postseason proved more than anything that it is a complete crapshoot. While everyone is making it their favorite pasttime to rag on the makeup of this Cardinals team, I don't remember anyone calling out the injustice of Cardinals teams in the past (who led the league in pitching, offense, and wins in textbook style) and had it handed to them similar to the Tigers this year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Let me see if I have this right. Good pitching wins in the playoffs, except this year when worse pitchers pitch better than the good ones. But that's because they weren't clutch enough and made errors.

 

Maybe, just maybe, sometimes good pitching beats good hitting, and sometimes good hitting beats good pitching. That's why it's good to aim for both, because when you make the playoffs and your season comes down to 4-7 games you can't really plan for short cold streaks from either.

 

I remember being laughed at for believing defense played a major role on your chances of winning. This world series showed why defense is very important.

 

First of all, that doesn't really answer what I said at all.

 

Secondly, of course defense is important to winning, it's a sizable part of a baseball game. The thing is, everyone in MLB is pretty good at playing defense on the whole. The difference is not worth sacrificing in other areas.

[Backtobanks]

I repeat my original contention, your team needs to be good enough to get into the playoffs and then hope that one or two players get hot at the right time. One or two hitters OR pitchers can carry a team throughout the playoffs.

[VanceJergins]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

[baseball7897]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

[VanceJergins]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

 

LOL! Next you're going to be telling me that gritty players are over-rated.

[baseball7897]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

 

LOL! Next you're going to be telling me that gritty players are over-rated.

 

"gritty players are over-rated."

[VanceJergins]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

 

LOL! Next you're going to be telling me that gritty players are over-rated.

 

"gritty players are over-rated."

 

I'll pretend I didnt hear that.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

These arguments are going nowhere. I started this thread to show that Jim Hendry needs to put pitching as his number one priority. Winning a championship takes good pitching, timely hitting, solid defense, and a lot of things to go right. Just like in football they say defense wins championships, 9 out of 10 people will tell you that pitching wins champs. in baseball. Go get pitching and some hitting Jim. With pitching being priority number 1.

 

Where's the proof that pitching is more important than hitting?

 

I think the 06 Yankees are a good example. They had a really good offense, but their pitching was suspect the majority of the year.

 

And the Yankees also had the best record in all of baseball this year with that suspect pitching.

 

All this postseason proved is that the playoffs are a crap shoot. A GM needs to build a team to get there and hope the players do the job once they are there.

 

Did the Cardinals outpitch the Tigers in the WS? Maybe so. But that collection of pitchers is no way better than the Tigers. They may have been better than the Tigers in that series, but if you were blindly without hindsight picking pitchers for which you would call WS caliber staff, there's no way in hell that you would pick the Cardinal staff over the Tigers.

 

Jeff Suppan is a league average pitcher. Weaver was DFA'ed by the Angels, and underperformed for the Cardinals for most of the season. Reyes was remarkably inconsistent throughout the year. The only one of the Cardinals who had been truly dominant was Carpenter.

 

So, if the Cubs were to follow the Cardinals model...we could have Zambrano and he equals Carpenter, we need a league average pitcher to match Suppan...so maybe we should sign him this offseason. We need a reject like Weaver, so let's pick up Jose Lima. Then Marshall equals Reyes.

 

So, Zambrano, Suppan, Lima, and Marshall. There you have your Cubs rotation that could win a World Series. Whoopeee!

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

 

Clutch hitting exists, but the clutch hitter does not. Trying to get those players for your team is a futile task. Get good hitters and hope they do their job when the time comes.

[baseball7897]

These arguments are going nowhere. I started this thread to show that Jim Hendry needs to put pitching as his number one priority. Winning a championship takes good pitching, timely hitting, solid defense, and a lot of things to go right. Just like in football they say defense wins championships, 9 out of 10 people will tell you that pitching wins champs. in baseball. Go get pitching and some hitting Jim. With pitching being priority number 1.

 

Where's the proof that pitching is more important than hitting?

 

I think the 06 Yankees are a good example. They had a really good offense, but their pitching was suspect the majority of the year.

 

And the Yankees also had the best record in all of baseball this year with that suspect pitching.

 

All this postseason proved is that the playoffs are a crap shoot. A GM needs to build a team to get there and hope the players do the job once they are there.

 

Did the Cardinals outpitch the Tigers in the WS? Maybe so. But that collection of pitchers is no way better than the Tigers. They may have been better than the Tigers in that series, but if you were blindly without hindsight picking pitchers for which you would call WS caliber staff, there's no way in hell that you would pick the Cardinal staff over the Tigers.

 

Jeff Suppan is a league average pitcher. Weaver was DFA'ed by the Angels, and underperformed for the Cardinals for most of the season. Reyes was remarkably inconsistent throughout the year. The only one of the Cardinals who had been truly dominant was Carpenter.

 

So, if the Cubs were to follow the Cardinals model...we could have Zambrano and he equals Carpenter, we need a league average pitcher to match Suppan...so maybe we should sign him this offseason. We need a reject like Weaver, so let's pick up Jose Lima. Then Marshall equals Reyes.

 

So, Zambrano, Suppan, Lima, and Marshall. There you have your Cubs rotation that could win a World Series. Whoopeee!

 

Where did anyway say the Cubs should follow the Cardinals plan? Im not sure where you're going with that post either?

[baseball7897]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

 

Clutch hitting exists, but the clutch hitter does not. Trying to get those players for your team is a futile task. Get good hitters and hope they do their job when the time comes.

 

Where did I say they exist????? All I said was, "clutch hitting is measured into a teams success."

[baseball7897]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

 

LOL! Next you're going to be telling me that gritty players are over-rated.

 

"gritty players are over-rated."

 

I'll pretend I didnt hear that.

 

It was a joke.

[soccer10k]

I've laughed out loud more reading this thread than watching Blue Collar Comedy Tour (I've laughed about 3 times....so 3 times more than BCCT to be exact). I think what this thread proves more than the importance of pitching and more than the importance of hitting, yes even more than the importance of clutch defense, is that ESPN and Joe Morgan need to be stopped. Joe Morgan's book "Baseball for Dummies" is just that.

 

P.S. abuck is my new favorite poster.

 

Clutch defense? I dont think there is a such thing. I think I said "clutch hitting". For example: The Cardinals had runners on 2b with 2 outs the whole world series. Their hitters found a way to get that run in. That's clutch hitting.

 

Clutch hitting exists, but the clutch hitter does not. Trying to get those players for your team is a futile task. Get good hitters and hope they do their job when the time comes.

 

Where did I say they exist????? All I said was, "clutch hitting is measured into a teams success."

 

Yes but you don't know which hitters are going to come through. You have to assemble the best team and if they come through in the clutch, then they do and that's great.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

My point about both is that the playoffs are a crapshoot. Build a team to get to the playoffs and hope that your pitchers perform over the short series and that your hitters come through when needed.

 

So, to say the Yankees lost because their pitching was suspect is wrong. The Yankees lost because in a short series, the other team outperformed them. But the Yankees offense still was good enough to get them the best record, even with suspect pitching.

 

The Cardinals did not win because they had better pitching. They won because over a short series, they played better.

 

Trying to say look at what happened this postseason and then trying to emulate that model is a recipe for disaster.

 

So, looking at this World Series and then saying the Cubs should focus on pitching first is not necessarily the best idea. We could just as easily say the method is to get there, so let's follow the Yankees model, build a superstar line-up and hope for the best with the pitching.

[TruffleShuffle]

What a great thread.

 

But, you guys are missing the big picture. What wins championships is players who have clutchiness. Molina, Eckstein, Rolen - these are players with the clutchy gene. Same with Weaver, Suppan, Wainwright, Tyler Johnson - hell just about the entire Cardinals pitching staff has large clutchiness. By contrast, the Tigers exhibited a great deal of unclutchiness. In fact, Kenny Rogers is the only guy on that team who I can say is clutchy.