[CaliforniaRaisin]

the "your people" was a joke.. if I offended anyone, I apologize.. OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

 

Why wouldn't you want the rest of the team to get on base well? That'll give more opportunities to score runs.

[jaxxradio]

I'm not saying it's irrelevent, it's just not as big a stat as it is being made.. the lead-off guy needs to get on..less important the further down the line-up.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

the "your people" was a joke.. if I offended anyone, I apologize.. OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

 

I'm going to strongly disagree with this. Not making outs is important no matter where you are in the line-up.

[rocket]

the "your people" was a joke.. if I offended anyone, I apologize.. OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

 

what lineup spot is it important to have a good vorp?

Edited August 20, 2006 by rocket

[jaxxradio]

let me give you an example.. if a guy goes 0-4 in a game but moves the runner to scoring position in three of his four AB's, is this a bad night? Of course not, but according to the numbers it is.

[rocket]

let me give you an example.. if a guy goes 0-4 in a game but moves the runner to scoring position in three of his four AB's, is this a bad night? Of course not, but according to the numbers it is.

 

yes, it's a bad night.

[jaxxradio]

No, it's not a bad night.. not in the least.. especially if those runs score

[rocket]

it's a bad night. outs are precious, and with a runner on base, even more precious. rarely is an out worth moving a runner.

[jaxxradio]

I am speechless.. needless to say, there are 30 managers in the big leagues that don't share your opinion.

[rocket]

I am speechless.. needless to say, there are 30 managers in the big leagues that don't share your opinion.

 

29 when the cubs hire earl weaver

[UK1679666180]

let me give you an example.. if a guy goes 0-4 in a game but moves the runner to scoring position in three of his four AB's, is this a bad night? Of course not, but according to the numbers it is.

 

It depends on the context of the game.

 

0-4 while moving runners up doesn't add enough to help out the team if they're down by a large margin. (down 4 or more runs and it's more important to play for the big inning.

 

If that 0-4 led to 2-3 runs b/c the batter behind also had a good game, then it should be noted as a positive.

 

Game situation dictates the quality of those ABs moreso than anything else.

 

Also, the quality of the batter plays a key role. There's a big difference between M. Ramirez and Rey Ordonez as far as qualifications of a productive game under those circumstances.

Edited August 20, 2006 by UK

[ChiefsVoice]

it's a bad night. outs are precious, and with a runner on base, even more precious. rarely is an out worth moving a runner.

 

Wow, do you watch games?

 

as for OBP being important, it is the single whole belief of the A's system to 9 OBP monsters...and exactly how many World Series' have they played in with that philosophy???

 

scoring runs matters, the other team not scoring runs matters more. OBP matters little.

[rocket]

it's a bad night. outs are precious, and with a runner on base, even more precious. rarely is an out worth moving a runner.

 

Wow, do you watch games?

 

as for OBP being important, it is the single whole belief of the A's system to 9 OBP monsters...and exactly how many World Series' have they played in with that philosophy???

 

scoring runs matters, the other team not scoring runs matters more. OBP matters little.

 

awesome, about time the "do you watch games" counter argument came.

 

yes, i watch games. hitting 4 groundouts to move a runner isn't a great game. it's not the worst possible game, but it's a bad game. it'd be a good game if on one of those groundouts, he instead drove a double to score the runner, or even if he drew a walk to prolong the inning.

 

nice try on the a's argument. it's completely irrelevant and ignorant.

 

how many red sox world series titles did they win with "get as good an obp as possible" philosophy?

[UK1679666180]

it's a bad night. outs are precious, and with a runner on base, even more precious. rarely is an out worth moving a runner.

 

Wow, do you watch games?

 

as for OBP being important, it is the single whole belief of the A's system to 9 OBP monsters...and exactly how many World Series' have they played in with that philosophy???

 

scoring runs matters, the other team not scoring runs matters more. OBP matters little.

 

OBP plays a key role in scoring runs on a consistent basis, though. You also have to guys in the middle to drive them in.

 

The model for a current ML roster of high OBPs are the Yankees, they're doing pretty well having been in Boston this weekend.

[CubColtPacer]

let me give you an example.. if a guy goes 0-4 in a game but moves the runner to scoring position in three of his four AB's, is this a bad night? Of course not, but according to the numbers it is.

 

It depends on the context of the game.

 

0-4 while moving runners up doesn't add enough to help out the team if they're down by a large margin. (down 4 or more runs and it's more important to play for the big inning.

 

If that 0-4 led to 2-3 runs b/c the batter behind also had a good game, then it should be noted as a positive.

 

Game situation dictates the quality of those ABs moreso than anything else.

 

Also, the quality of the batter plays a key role. There's a big difference between M. Ramirez and Rey Ordonez as far as qualifications of a productive game under those circumstances.

 

I completely agree with this, and the last part most of all. A stronger hitter that moves a runner up in front of a weaker hitter is not doing nearly as much of his job as a weaker hitter moving runners up in front of the stronger hitters. Game situation and matchups play a huge factor in this as well.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

it's a bad night. outs are precious, and with a runner on base, even more precious. rarely is an out worth moving a runner.

 

Wow, do you watch games?

 

as for OBP being important, it is the single whole belief of the A's system to 9 OBP monsters...and exactly how many World Series' have they played in with that philosophy???

 

scoring runs matters, the other team not scoring runs matters more. OBP matters little.

 

Without getting on base a team isn't likely to score too many runs.

 

Having 9 OBP monsters without guys with good SLG isn't a great strategy, but having very little OBP is a worse one. The A's don't have 9 OBP monsters in their lineup (part of their problem in recent years). The Red Sox and Yankees of recents years have won World Series with great lineups with OBP and SLG (obviously many of the better power hitters have good OBPs too).

[CubColtPacer]

it's a bad night. outs are precious, and with a runner on base, even more precious. rarely is an out worth moving a runner.

 

Wow, do you watch games?

 

as for OBP being important, it is the single whole belief of the A's system to 9 OBP monsters...and exactly how many World Series' have they played in with that philosophy???

 

scoring runs matters, the other team not scoring runs matters more. OBP matters little.

 

awesome, about time the "do you watch games" counter argument came.

 

yes, i watch games. hitting 4 groundouts to move a runner isn't a great game. it's not the worst possible game, but it's a bad game. it'd be a good game if on one of those groundouts, he instead drove a double to score the runner, or even if he drew a walk to prolong the inning.

 

nice try on the a's argument. it's completely irrelevant and ignorant.

 

how many red sox world series titles did they win with "get as good an obp as possible" philosophy?

 

The interesting question is-is an 0 for 4 game with moving a runner up 3 times better than a 1 for 4 game (with 1 single) and not moving a runner up in any of the 4 at bats. Based on game situations, the answer might be yes-it just would depend on the situations those 4 at bats came in.

[NCCubFan]

Nefi Perez isn't on the same planet let alone the same ballfield with Izturis defensively.....

Now that statement could be taken literally as well as figuratively. :D

[rawaction]

it's a bad night. outs are precious, and with a runner on base, even more precious. rarely is an out worth moving a runner.

 

Wow, do you watch games?

 

as for OBP being important, it is the single whole belief of the A's system to 9 OBP monsters...and exactly how many World Series' have they played in with that philosophy???

 

scoring runs matters, the other team not scoring runs matters more. OBP matters little.

 

awesome, about time the "do you watch games" counter argument came.

 

yes, i watch games. hitting 4 groundouts to move a runner isn't a great game. it's not the worst possible game, but it's a bad game. it'd be a good game if on one of those groundouts, he instead drove a double to score the runner, or even if he drew a walk to prolong the inning.

 

nice try on the a's argument. it's completely irrelevant and ignorant.

 

how many red sox world series titles did they win with "get as good an obp as possible" philosophy?

 

The interesting question is-is an 0 for 4 game with moving a runner up 3 times better than a 1 for 4 game (with 1 single) and not moving a runner up in any of the 4 at bats. Based on game situations, the answer might be yes-it just would depend on the situations those 4 at bats came in.

 

Again, it all depends. It's not that simple. If a guy goes 0-4, and moves a runner over 3 times and he scores each time, it depends on what else happens. If the guy scores 3 times on doubles, triples, or HRs from the guy after, or a combination of hits....it's a wasted out because if the guy had gotten on base, there would be 1 more run scored. If the guy scores on a wild pitch, balk, or something out of the offense's hands, then it's a more valuable AB. And again, that depends on if the team is winning or losing. If you're down 8-0, moving the runner isn't helping much.

 

More times than not, giving up an out (i.e. moving runners over intentionally, sacrificing), limits your scoring.

 

And like it or not, it is a fact that most games are NOT decided by little things.

[abuck1220]

OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

 

i don't know if more incorrect words have ever been written on this site.

 

you say it's the leadoff guy's job to get on base, second hitter's job to move runners over, third hitter's job to drive him in, etc. well, what if the leadoff hitter does NOT get on (which is the case 65% of the time). then what's the second hitter's job (since there's no one to move over)? doesn't his job then become to get on base? and what if the 1st and 2nd hitter don't get on? since the 3rd hitter's job is to drive in runs, what's his job when there's no one on base?

[abuck1220]

and can people please quit using the "here's a team that has a good OBP, and they don't win" argument? no one says OBP = wins...people are saying OBP = runs. big difference.

 

you can win games w/ a low OBP (provided you have very good pitching and probably a good SLG), but it's hard to score runs with a low OBP.

[UK1679666180]

Again, it all depends. It's not that simple. If a guy goes 0-4, and moves a runner over 3 times and he scores each time, it depends on what else happens. If the guy scores 3 times on doubles, triples, or HRs from the guy after, or a combination of hits....it's a wasted out because if the guy had gotten on base, there would be 1 more run scored. If the guy scores on a wild pitch, balk, or something out of the offense's hands, then it's a more valuable AB. And again, that depends on if the team is winning or losing. If you're down 8-0, moving the runner isn't helping much.

 

Beyond the working the count aspect of an AB, moving runners over is often the worst case scenario of a "productive" AB. Obviously, hitting a HR is at the top of the list of a productive AB and goes down the line past the singles into the BB catagory. The difference between a BB and moving runners over depends on who is hitting behind them as putting runners on 1B and 2B rather driving them in on a sac. fly isn't as productive when there's a poor hitter behind them. More often than not, I'd take my chances with the BB though as it gives a better indication that the pitcher might be in trouble.

 

In order. (my list of tech. productive ABs)

 

HR

TR

DB

S

BB

HBP

Sac. Fly

Sac. bunt/moving runners over.

AB that worked the count but did not result in any of the above.

[jaxxradio]

You guys see a much different game than I do in the broadcast booth. I wish you guys could talk to the managers, coaches and scouts who make this game their career.. they would disagree with most of the stuff you guys have said..

[CaliforniaRaisin]

You guys see a much different game than I do in the broadcast booth. I wish you guys could talk to the managers, coaches and scouts who make this game their career.. they would disagree with most of the stuff you guys have said..

 

One of the posters in this thread is a scout for a big league teams. :)

[jaxxradio]

Who is this person.. he needs to be fired.. lmao