ESPN 1000 Reporting the Cardinals after Craig Wilson

[srbin84]

Haren was better, younger, and cheaper than Mulder last year. Mulder's illustrious '05 postseason accounted for 2 good starts and one bad one, including taking half the losses in the NLCS. If the justification of the trade is that you sacrifice the younger, cheaper, better player so you get the guy can give up 5 runs with a 1.37 WHIP in 18 IP(ignoring the fact that Haren probably would be similar if not better in that sample), PLUS you give up your top hitting prospect, then that's not much of a justification at all.

 

Wins and losses don't mean anything. It's about ERA.

 

In that case, Haren has a lower postseason ERA than Mulder.

 

And yes, Haren has pitched in fewer postseason innings than Mulder, but Mulder's 42.1 postseason innings isn't exactly a lot to work with anyways.

 

Haren has 8 relief innings in one postseason. Mulder has 7 starts over 3 postseasons spread out over 5 seasons. Every playoff year he has had an ERA under 2.50. That's a big game pitcher.

[YearofDaCubs]

Both Mulder and Hudson have been dissappointing for their respective teams since the trade. Haren has been pretty damn good for the As.

 

So the fact that Mulder is a proven playoff ace doesn't mean anything?

 

No, because that's not true.

 

Mulder in the playoffs:

 

7 GS 2.34 ERA

 

You forgot his overwhelming 1.39 WHIP, and the fact that it's seven outings. Or if you're adventurous enough you could point out that even with his lucky ERA he's 3-4 career in the playoffs.

 

But all this is tangent to the point that Jocketty got absolutely hosed in that deal.

I think you are right that Jocketty got hosed. He gave up Haren, Calero and Barton for Mulder. As got the better end of that one.

 

Hudson was traded for Meyer, Charles Thomas and Juan Cruz so I think Atl got the best of that one even though Hudson hasn't been exactly lights-out (still good though at 3.52 and 3.93)

[CubfaninCA]

big game mark aka el duque. :)

 

srbin has a point.

[srbin84]

You forgot his overwhelming 1.39 WHIP, and the fact that it's seven outings. Or if you're adventurous enough you could point out that even with his lucky ERA he's 3-4 career in the playoffs.

 

But all this is tangent to the point that Jocketty got absolutely hosed in that deal.

 

EDIT: Haren has given up 2 runs in 5 career postseason outings(2.16 ERA)

 

I don't care if a pitcher has a 1.75 WHIP and is 0-7 in 7 starts. If he has a 2.34 ERA, he's getting the job done.

Edited June 10, 2006 by srbin84

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Haren was better, younger, and cheaper than Mulder last year. Mulder's illustrious '05 postseason accounted for 2 good starts and one bad one, including taking half the losses in the NLCS. If the justification of the trade is that you sacrifice the younger, cheaper, better player so you get the guy can give up 5 runs with a 1.37 WHIP in 18 IP(ignoring the fact that Haren probably would be similar if not better in that sample), PLUS you give up your top hitting prospect, then that's not much of a justification at all.

 

Wins and losses don't mean anything. It's about ERA.

 

In that case, Haren has a lower postseason ERA than Mulder.

 

And yes, Haren has pitched in fewer postseason innings than Mulder, but Mulder's 42.1 postseason innings isn't exactly a lot to work with anyways.

 

Haren has 8 relief innings in one postseason. Mulder has 7 starts over 3 postseasons spread out over 5 seasons. Every playoff year he has had an ERA under 2.50. That's a big game pitcher.

 

3.09 ERA and 1.46 WHIP in his only League Championship series. This big game pitcher nonsense is just that, and again, it's still tangent to the point that Jocketty gave up the superior pitcher who has age and contract on his side, Plus a decent arm, PLUS the team's top hitting prospect, for the inferior pitcher that is supposedly better in the postseason, even though Haren hasn't struggled in the postseason when he's pitched there. And there's also the fact that Haren is absolutely blowing Mulder out of the water this year.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Haren was better, younger, and cheaper than Mulder last year. Mulder's illustrious '05 postseason accounted for 2 good starts and one bad one, including taking half the losses in the NLCS. If the justification of the trade is that you sacrifice the younger, cheaper, better player so you get the guy can give up 5 runs with a 1.37 WHIP in 18 IP(ignoring the fact that Haren probably would be similar if not better in that sample), PLUS you give up your top hitting prospect, then that's not much of a justification at all.

 

Wins and losses don't mean anything. It's about ERA.

 

In that case, Haren has a lower postseason ERA than Mulder.

 

And yes, Haren has pitched in fewer postseason innings than Mulder, but Mulder's 42.1 postseason innings isn't exactly a lot to work with anyways.

 

Haren has 8 relief innings in one postseason. Mulder has 7 starts over 3 postseasons spread out over 5 seasons. Every playoff year he has had an ERA under 2.50. That's a big game pitcher.

 

Well, that wasn't your original point. Or second point.

 

And 42.1 innings of playoff game vs. how average he's been in nearly 300 innings since being traded to the Cards (while Haren has been better during that time)?

[CaliforniaRaisin]

You forgot his overwhelming 1.39 WHIP, and the fact that it's seven outings. Or if you're adventurous enough you could point out that even with his lucky ERA he's 3-4 career in the playoffs.

 

But all this is tangent to the point that Jocketty got absolutely hosed in that deal.

 

EDIT: Haren has given up 2 runs in 5 career postseason outings(2.16 ERA)

 

I don't care if a pitcher has a 1.75 WHIP and is 0-7 in 7 starts. If he has a 2.34 ERA, he's getting the job done.

 

Does that mean ERA is the only way to judge a pitcher?

[srbin84]

Haren was better, younger, and cheaper than Mulder last year. Mulder's illustrious '05 postseason accounted for 2 good starts and one bad one, including taking half the losses in the NLCS. If the justification of the trade is that you sacrifice the younger, cheaper, better player so you get the guy can give up 5 runs with a 1.37 WHIP in 18 IP(ignoring the fact that Haren probably would be similar if not better in that sample), PLUS you give up your top hitting prospect, then that's not much of a justification at all.

 

Wins and losses don't mean anything. It's about ERA.

 

In that case, Haren has a lower postseason ERA than Mulder.

 

And yes, Haren has pitched in fewer postseason innings than Mulder, but Mulder's 42.1 postseason innings isn't exactly a lot to work with anyways.

 

Haren has 8 relief innings in one postseason. Mulder has 7 starts over 3 postseasons spread out over 5 seasons. Every playoff year he has had an ERA under 2.50. That's a big game pitcher.

 

Well, that wasn't your original point. Or second point.

 

And 42.1 innings of playoff game vs. how average he's been in nearly 300 innings since being traded to the Cards (while Haren has been better during that time)?

 

If you know you are going to playoffs every year, it's huge to have guys you know are going to pitch great when they are there.

[Geech]

I don't care if a pitcher has a 1.75 WHIP and is 0-7 in 7 starts. If he has a 2.34 ERA, he's getting the job done.

 

That's as myopic as using wins and losses. If a pitcher has a 1.75 WHIP, then he's not getting by on skill, he's getting by on luck. If he keeps pitching like that eventually he won't be as lucky.

 

There's a reason most of the serious stat-heads rely on defense independent pitching stats over ERA.

[srbin84]

You forgot his overwhelming 1.39 WHIP, and the fact that it's seven outings. Or if you're adventurous enough you could point out that even with his lucky ERA he's 3-4 career in the playoffs.

 

But all this is tangent to the point that Jocketty got absolutely hosed in that deal.

 

EDIT: Haren has given up 2 runs in 5 career postseason outings(2.16 ERA)

 

I don't care if a pitcher has a 1.75 WHIP and is 0-7 in 7 starts. If he has a 2.34 ERA, he's getting the job done.

 

Does that mean ERA is the only way to judge a pitcher?

 

I would say ERA has the same value as OPS does to hitters. You can look at the other stats if you want, but in the end, ERA and OPS are what you go by in judging how good a pitcher or hitter is.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

You forgot his overwhelming 1.39 WHIP, and the fact that it's seven outings. Or if you're adventurous enough you could point out that even with his lucky ERA he's 3-4 career in the playoffs.

 

But all this is tangent to the point that Jocketty got absolutely hosed in that deal.

 

EDIT: Haren has given up 2 runs in 5 career postseason outings(2.16 ERA)

 

I don't care if a pitcher has a 1.75 WHIP and is 0-7 in 7 starts. If he has a 2.34 ERA, he's getting the job done.

 

Does that mean ERA is the only way to judge a pitcher?

 

I would say ERA has the same value as OPS does to hitters. You can look at the other stats if you want, but in the end, ERA and OPS are what you go by in judging how good a pitcher or hitter is.

 

They're miles apart. Maybe Fielding independent ERA and OPS, but straight ERA isn't even close to OPS.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

You forgot his overwhelming 1.39 WHIP, and the fact that it's seven outings. Or if you're adventurous enough you could point out that even with his lucky ERA he's 3-4 career in the playoffs.

 

But all this is tangent to the point that Jocketty got absolutely hosed in that deal.

 

EDIT: Haren has given up 2 runs in 5 career postseason outings(2.16 ERA)

 

I don't care if a pitcher has a 1.75 WHIP and is 0-7 in 7 starts. If he has a 2.34 ERA, he's getting the job done.

 

Does that mean ERA is the only way to judge a pitcher?

 

I would say ERA has the same value as OPS does to hitters. You can look at the other stats if you want, but in the end, ERA and OPS are what you go by in judging how good a pitcher or hitter is.

 

Haren as an A: 3.74 ERA

Mulder as a Card: 4.08 ERA

 

Haren in the playoffs: 2.16 ERA

Mulder in the playoffs: 2.34 ERA

[Geech]

Haren as an A: 3.74 ERA

Mulder as a Card: 4.08 ERA

 

Haren in the playoffs: 2.16 ERA

Mulder in the playoffs: 2.34 ERA

 

Mulder just knows how to win.

[srbin84]

Haren as an A: 3.74 ERA

Mulder as a Card: 4.08 ERA

 

Haren in the playoffs: 2.16 ERA

Mulder in the playoffs: 2.34 ERA

 

Mulder just knows how to win.

 

Athletes aren't robots. Some have the ability to rise to the occasion when it counts the most and some often crumble in the same situations.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Haren as an A: 3.74 ERA

Mulder as a Card: 4.08 ERA

 

Haren in the playoffs: 2.16 ERA

Mulder in the playoffs: 2.34 ERA

 

Mulder just knows how to win.

 

Athletes aren't robots. Some have the ability to rise to the occasion when it counts the most and some often crumble in the same situations.

 

But Mulder hasn't. And you're still ignoring the principle argument that Jocketty got fleeced.

[CubfaninCA]

Curious. What's more of a pitcher's park? St. Louis or Oakland.

[srbin84]

Haren as an A: 3.74 ERA

Mulder as a Card: 4.08 ERA

 

Haren in the playoffs: 2.16 ERA

Mulder in the playoffs: 2.34 ERA

 

Mulder just knows how to win.

 

Athletes aren't robots. Some have the ability to rise to the occasion when it counts the most and some often crumble in the same situations.

 

But Mulder hasn't. And you're still ignoring the principle argument that Jocketty got fleeced.

 

One, whatever, you're wrong. And two, when you add a postseason ace to a team that makes the playoffs every year, you are making that move to help you win a world series.

[Geech]

Curious. What's more of a pitcher's park? St. Louis or Oakland.

 

Last year the park effects were about equal. I don't know how they'll end up for 06.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Haren as an A: 3.74 ERA

Mulder as a Card: 4.08 ERA

 

Haren in the playoffs: 2.16 ERA

Mulder in the playoffs: 2.34 ERA

 

Mulder just knows how to win.

 

Athletes aren't robots. Some have the ability to rise to the occasion when it counts the most and some often crumble in the same situations.

 

But Mulder hasn't. And you're still ignoring the principle argument that Jocketty got fleeced.

 

Actually, srb started out by saying Jocketty doesn't trade key prospects or players.

[srbin84]

Curious. What's more of a pitcher's park? St. Louis or Oakland.

 

Last year the park effects were about equal. I don't know how they'll end up for 06.

 

Well, in his three playoffs years, his home park favored hitters in two.

[Mark_R]

We'll let the enemy decide

[Geech]

Actually, srb started out by saying Jocketty doesn't trade key prospects or players.

 

Which is patently false even if you believe Mulder's clutchness makes up for being worse than Haren.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

We'll let the enemy decide

 

You're my hero.

[Outshined_One]

One, whatever, you're wrong. And two, when you add a postseason ace to a team that makes the playoffs every year, you are making that move to help you win a world series.

 

At the time, this was fair justification for the trade. Nobody knew what to make of Haren in terms of his potential as a starter while Barton didn't seem like he was going to stick at catcher.

 

However, as time goes on, this trade has gotten worse for the Cardinals. Haren for Mulder has been, at best, a wash. Imagine if they had Haren performing the way he has been in Oakland over the past two years and were in a similar position to where they are now. Don't you think that the Cardinals would have absolutely loved to have Barton in their system, considering how badly they need another outfielder? He's been in a bit of a funk this season, but he's still a Top 50 prospect considering how good his bat is. Heck, he's been at that level for some time now. He would have made a really nice trading chip for some one like, say, Bobby Abreu.

 

This trade is only going to look worse as time goes on. It already looks pretty bad on the Cardinals' end, considering what could have been.

[Andy]

Curious. What's more of a pitcher's park? St. Louis or Oakland.

 

Last year the park effects were about equal. I don't know how they'll end up for 06.

I believe New Busch is slightly more of a hitter's park than the last one, so Oakland might be slightly more favorable to pitchers this time around.