ARod.....

[CubColtPacer]

I was thinking the same thing...especially after listening to XM this morning when they brought up the stat that Oakland is at or near the bottom in runs scored in the AL...Billy ball doesn't seem to be scoring any more runs than Dusty ball...and that's hard to do.

 

Oakland is 2nd from the bottom in runs scored in the AL, and have still outscored the Cobs, 411-376

 

Exactly-so our strategy is definitely wrong, but it doesn't mean their strategy is right-don't you think we would have about the number of runs they have if Lee was here the entire season though? We'd still be bad-and we still need to make changes, but so do they.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I was thinking the same thing...especially after listening to XM this morning when they brought up the stat that Oakland is at or near the bottom in runs scored in the AL...Billy ball doesn't seem to be scoring any more runs than Dusty ball...and that's hard to do.

 

Oakland is 2nd from the bottom in runs scored in the AL, and have still outscored the Cobs, 411-376

 

Exactly-so our strategy is definitely wrong, but it doesn't mean their strategy is right-don't you think we would have about the number of runs they have if Lee was here the entire season though? We'd still be bad-and we still need to make changes, but so do they.

 

Oakland is also over 500 and currently in 1st place.

[CubColtPacer]

I was thinking the same thing...especially after listening to XM this morning when they brought up the stat that Oakland is at or near the bottom in runs scored in the AL...Billy ball doesn't seem to be scoring any more runs than Dusty ball...and that's hard to do.

 

Oakland is 2nd from the bottom in runs scored in the AL, and have still outscored the Cobs, 411-376

 

Exactly-so our strategy is definitely wrong, but it doesn't mean their strategy is right-don't you think we would have about the number of runs they have if Lee was here the entire season though? We'd still be bad-and we still need to make changes, but so do they.

 

Oakland is also over 500 and currently in 1st place.

 

So maybe we should be looking at their pitching philosophy, but not their hitting philosophy.

[jjgman21]

I was thinking the same thing...especially after listening to XM this morning when they brought up the stat that Oakland is at or near the bottom in runs scored in the AL...Billy ball doesn't seem to be scoring any more runs than Dusty ball...and that's hard to do.

 

Oakland is 2nd from the bottom in runs scored in the AL, and have still outscored the Cobs, 411-376

 

which is about exactly what one would expect the run differential would be between a bad team who sends a pitcher and a pinch hitter up 4 times a game and a bad team that sends a thumper (DH) up 4-5 times every game.

 

411/9 = 45 or so runs generated by each lineup slot on average

376/8.5 = 44 or so runs generated by each lineup slot on average

 

in other words, the A's are just as bad offensively as the Cubs and the difference is accounted for by the leagues they play in.

[jjgman21]

I was thinking the same thing...especially after listening to XM this morning when they brought up the stat that Oakland is at or near the bottom in runs scored in the AL...Billy ball doesn't seem to be scoring any more runs than Dusty ball...and that's hard to do.

 

Oakland is 2nd from the bottom in runs scored in the AL, and have still outscored the Cobs, 411-376

 

Exactly-so our strategy is definitely wrong, but it doesn't mean their strategy is right-don't you think we would have about the number of runs they have if Lee was here the entire season though? We'd still be bad-and we still need to make changes, but so do they.

 

Oakland is also over 500 and currently in 1st place.

 

So maybe we should be looking at their pitching philosophy, but not their hitting philosophy.

 

not really. we should look into doing both better. more BBs and HRs hit and fewer BBs and HRs allowed. attempt to have the offensive players also provide decent D and a little speed. the problem with the A's is similar to what I said about Brian Anderson in Sulley's thread. all the patience in the world is of little value if the hitters aren't getting on base. if I am not mistaken, the A's have great isolated patience, but terrible overall obp.

[BigbadB]

Hasn't Oakland gone through a lot of injuries on offense? Ellis, Crosby, Chavez, Thomas, Bradley just off the top of my head?

[AlwaysaCub]

I was thinking the same thing...especially after listening to XM this morning when they brought up the stat that Oakland is at or near the bottom in runs scored in the AL...Billy ball doesn't seem to be scoring any more runs than Dusty ball...and that's hard to do.

 

Oakland is 2nd from the bottom in runs scored in the AL, and have still outscored the Cobs, 411-376

 

Exactly-so our strategy is definitely wrong, but it doesn't mean their strategy is right-don't you think we would have about the number of runs they have if Lee was here the entire season though? We'd still be bad-and we still need to make changes, but so do they.

 

Oakland is also over 500 and currently in 1st place.

 

Oakland has also given up more runs than they've scored. They also only have a half game lead, and are only 3 games over .500. I agree that their strategy is not necessarily right, and I would go as far as to say that they are maybe 2 bad breaks from being as bad as the cubs, albeit with a payroll half of ours.

[jjgman21]

Hasn't Oakland gone through a lot of injuries on offense? Ellis, Crosby, Chavez, Thomas, Bradley just off the top of my head?

 

yes, they have had their share of missed time. but if you're going to excuse their performance because of injuries, I don't want to see you turn around and bitch about Hendry and Baker making injury excuses. the missed time of the A's also hasn't been that significant. respective PAs (approx) of the players you listed: 235, 350, 325, 275, 122.

 

of the players you listed, only Bradley and Ellis have missed significant time, and Lee missed comparable time as Bradley and Barrett missed comparable time as Ellis (due to injury and suspension). and the expected offensive production of Lee/Barrett >>>> the expected offensive production of Bradley/Ellis, so the Cubs injuries have aruably hurt more than the A's injuries.

[TheDude]

Extreme philosophies either way is a bad idea. Beane gets a lot more credit than he deserves and I am glad this season has exposed it finally (though it doesn't seem to have any effect on the fervor of the Beaninites :?).

 

High OBP is not the end all be all, and guys like Bellhorn and Wilkerson prove that by not sticking when given a starting job in several cities, and guys like Dellucci, Michaels, and Catalanatto unable to break out of platoon situations. You want guys that can get on base placed in ideal slots of the lineup, but you do also want guys that can hit, as well as speed, and power.

 

The Mets have it right. If you want the Cubs to emulate an offensive philosophy, choose the Mets.

[Chocolate Milk]

High OBP is not the end all be all, and guys like Bellhorn and Wilkerson prove that by not sticking when given a starting job in several cities, and guys like Dellucci, Michaels, and Catalanatto unable to break out of platoon situations.

 

No one has said "OBP is the be all end all." It is however, extremely important. The ability to not make outs and it's impact on scoring runs isn't debatable.

 

Playing time is not a good measure of productivity.

[fromthestretch]

Hasn't Oakland gone through a lot of injuries on offense? Ellis, Crosby, Chavez, Thomas, Bradley just off the top of my head?

 

yes, they have had their share of missed time. but if you're going to excuse their performance because of injuries, I don't want to see you turn around and bitch about Hendry and Baker making injury excuses. the missed time of the A's also hasn't been that significant. respective PAs (approx) of the players you listed: 235, 350, 325, 275, 122.

 

of the players you listed, only Bradley and Ellis have missed significant time, and Lee missed comparable time as Bradley and Barrett missed comparable time as Ellis (due to injury and suspension). and the expected offensive production of Lee/Barrett >>>> the expected offensive production of Bradley/Ellis, so the Cubs injuries have aruably hurt more than the A's injuries.

 

There's a difference between relying on healthy guys that get hurt after you bring them in and bringing in/relying on guys that have a history of getting hurt to be key parts to your team. Also, even though Chavez hasn't missed significant time, he's playing hurt. Tendinitis in both forearms can really impact a player's ability to swing a bat. Ask Brad Wilkerson that.

[fromthestretch]

Extreme philosophies either way is a bad idea.

 

Agreed.

 

Beane gets a lot more credit than he deserves and I am glad this season has exposed it finally (though it doesn't seem to have any effect on the fervor of the Beaninites :?).

 

I would imagine that people who worship Beane and people who are anti-Beane tend to probably not completely understand his philosophies. The bottom line though is that just about every season, his team competes. While some of their numbers may be disappointing this season, his team is still winning.

 

High OBP is not the end all be all, and guys like Bellhorn and Wilkerson prove that by not sticking when given a starting job in several cities, and guys like Dellucci, Michaels, and Catalanatto unable to break out of platoon situations. You want guys that can get on base placed in ideal slots of the lineup, but you do also want guys that can hit, as well as speed, and power.

 

The Mets have it right. If you want the Cubs to emulate an offensive philosophy, choose the Mets.

 

In what cities (plural, since that's how you wrote it) has Wilkerson not been able to hold onto a starting job? He held onto it in Montreal/Washington (same franchise). His poor numbers last season and this season can be attributed to forearm problems. And although his numbers could use some improvement, he seems to have bounced back a bit from his horrendous start this year.

[Mark Priors Calves]

He signed Esteban Loiaza to a 3 year, 21 million dollar deal. Edited July 18, 2006 by Mark Prior's Calves

[fromthestretch]

He signed Esteban Loiaza to a 3 year, 21 million dollar dea.

 

I certainly agree that that was a questionable signing.

[jjgman21]

Hasn't Oakland gone through a lot of injuries on offense? Ellis, Crosby, Chavez, Thomas, Bradley just off the top of my head?

 

yes, they have had their share of missed time. but if you're going to excuse their performance because of injuries, I don't want to see you turn around and bitch about Hendry and Baker making injury excuses. the missed time of the A's also hasn't been that significant. respective PAs (approx) of the players you listed: 235, 350, 325, 275, 122.

 

of the players you listed, only Bradley and Ellis have missed significant time, and Lee missed comparable time as Bradley and Barrett missed comparable time as Ellis (due to injury and suspension). and the expected offensive production of Lee/Barrett >>>> the expected offensive production of Bradley/Ellis, so the Cubs injuries have aruably hurt more than the A's injuries.

 

There's a difference between relying on healthy guys that get hurt after you bring them in and bringing in/relying on guys that have a history of getting hurt to be key parts to your team. Also, even though Chavez hasn't missed significant time, he's playing hurt. Tendinitis in both forearms can really impact a player's ability to swing a bat. Ask Brad Wilkerson that.

 

well there's two problems with your retort.

 

1. I said nothing about pitchers. neither Lee nor Barrett had any injury history whatsoever before this year.

 

2. Bradley, Thomas, Crosby, Ellis, Harden = key parts of the A's Beane relied on even though they have a history of getting hurt.

[Jon]

Extreme philosophies either way is a bad idea. Beane gets a lot more credit than he deserves and I am glad this season has exposed it finally (though it doesn't seem to have any effect on the fervor of the Beaninites :?).

 

High OBP is not the end all be all, and guys like Bellhorn and Wilkerson prove that by not sticking when given a starting job in several cities, and guys like Dellucci, Michaels, and Catalanatto unable to break out of platoon situations. You want guys that can get on base placed in ideal slots of the lineup, but you do also want guys that can hit, as well as speed, and power.

 

The Mets have it right. If you want the Cubs to emulate an offensive philosophy, choose the Mets.

Not making outs/high OBP is ideal for all spots in the lineup. And speed shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as power. It's a great tool that can be pretty useful when used correctly, but it doesn't come that close in importance to being able to rack up extra base hits.

[goonys evil twin]

Extreme philosophies either way is a bad idea. Beane gets a lot more credit than he deserves and I am glad this season has exposed it finally (though it doesn't seem to have any effect on the fervor of the Beaninites :?).

 

High OBP is not the end all be all, and guys like Bellhorn and Wilkerson prove that by not sticking when given a starting job in several cities, and guys like Dellucci, Michaels, and Catalanatto unable to break out of platoon situations. You want guys that can get on base placed in ideal slots of the lineup, but you do also want guys that can hit, as well as speed, and power.

 

The Mets have it right. If you want the Cubs to emulate an offensive philosophy, choose the Mets.

Not making outs/high OBP is ideal for all spots in the lineup. And speed shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as power. It's a great tool that can be pretty useful when used correctly, but it doesn't come that close in importance to being able to rack up extra base hits.

 

In what way has Beane been exposed? His team is in first place with a bottom third payroll (below every team in the division). The Mets are doing it right because they can go out and spend spend spend. Oakland has to be efficient, which is where the true genius of Beane lies. Bigger market teams can take risk and be less efficient by spending on extras. But Beane has had to get by on the bare essentials, and he's absolutely blown away teams like the Mets and Cubs in terms of stable winning over the past several years.

[oldcubsfan]

Someone explain to me why Beane hasn't gone after the pure OBP guys like walker, Choi, Grieve(I know he traded him) who were and are extremely available? Is it because they don't do much else? Of course he would want the offense of Soriano, he does many things.

[goonys evil twin]

Someone explain to me why Beane hasn't gone after the pure OBP guys like walker, Choi, Grieve(I know he traded him) who were and are extremely available? Is it because they don't do much else? Of course he would want the offense of Soriano, he does many things.

 

I don't see how Walker is a pure OBP play, but Beane has gone after lots of OBP-centric players. He can't go after all of them. He has stayed away from bigtime OBP guys in recent years because they have been earning more and more money as the rest of the league started realizing the value of OBP. Beane isn't an OBP fiend, he's an efficiency fiend.

[abuck1220]

Someone explain to me why Beane hasn't gone after the pure OBP guys like walker, Choi, Grieve(I know he traded him) who were and are extremely available? Is it because they don't do much else? Of course he would want the offense of Soriano, he does many things.

 

for all the complaining you do about people talking about OBP a lot, you sure do talk about OBP a lot.

[oldcubsfan]

Someone explain to me why Beane hasn't gone after the pure OBP guys like walker, Choi, Grieve(I know he traded him) who were and are extremely available? Is it because they don't do much else? Of course he would want the offense of Soriano, he does many things.

 

I don't see how Walker is a pure OBP play, but Beane has gone after lots of OBP-centric players. He can't go after all of them. He has stayed away from bigtime OBP guys in recent years because they have been earning more and more money as the rest of the league started realizing the value of OBP. Beane isn't an OBP fiend, he's an efficiency fiend.

What else does Todd do? Can't run, mediocre defense, no real power and certainly not a big RBI guy.

[badgercub]

Someone explain to me why Beane hasn't gone after the pure OBP guys like walker, Choi, Grieve(I know he traded him) who were and are extremely available? Is it because they don't do much else? Of course he would want the offense of Soriano, he does many things.

 

I don't see how Walker is a pure OBP play, but Beane has gone after lots of OBP-centric players. He can't go after all of them. He has stayed away from bigtime OBP guys in recent years because they have been earning more and more money as the rest of the league started realizing the value of OBP. Beane isn't an OBP fiend, he's an efficiency fiend.

 

Amen to that. Beane is about exposing inefficiencies in the market, it just so happens that he was the first to exploit the lack of value put on OBP so now he has that label. Beane is to baseball what Warren Buffett is to the stock market, he looks to find undervalued assets and buy them up on the cheap.

[Jon]

Someone explain to me why Beane hasn't gone after the pure OBP guys like walker, Choi, Grieve(I know he traded him) who were and are extremely available? Is it because they don't do much else? Of course he would want the offense of Soriano, he does many things.

 

I don't see how Walker is a pure OBP play, but Beane has gone after lots of OBP-centric players. He can't go after all of them. He has stayed away from bigtime OBP guys in recent years because they have been earning more and more money as the rest of the league started realizing the value of OBP. Beane isn't an OBP fiend, he's an efficiency fiend.

What else does Todd do? Can't run, mediocre defense, no real power and certainly not a big RBI guy.

2004: .274/.352/.468 - 50 RBIs in 372 ABs with most of his time spent at the top of the order

2005: .305/.355/.474 - 40 RBIs in 397 ABs with most of his time spent at the top of the order

[jjgman21]

 

In what way has Beane been exposed? His team is in first place with a bottom third payroll (below every team in the division). The Mets are doing it right because they can go out and spend spend spend. Oakland has to be efficient, which is where the true genius of Beane lies. Bigger market teams can take risk and be less efficient by spending on extras. But Beane has had to get by on the bare essentials, and he's absolutely blown away teams like the Mets and Cubs in terms of stable winning over the past several years.

 

I think "exposed" is the wrong word with loaded connotations, but as I said on the previous page, I think he deserves some criticism from all points of view. yes, he has a low payroll, but a large chunk of it is taken up with two players who suck, not an efficient use of resources. the young guys who have come to the ML level are not the diamond in the rough/Moneyball type draft picks, they are players that any GM would have taken, so yes he's drafted players that came to the major leagues, but at no greater clip as any other GM who would have had 10-12 first round draft picks in two years. he does keep his teams competitive, but in a division that has fallen off precipitously in the past few years, and the strength of his team is generally NOT derived from the strength of the offense, it has generally been pitching, by pitchers who, again, any GM would have taken. his good signs and trades have been equalized by his bad signs and trades.

 

and I think one thing that always gets left out of the discussion of Beane is the position he is in. doesn't really matter what the team is doing, they generally draw the same number of fans in Oakland...not alot. he doesn't have to deal with the sort of 'win now' mentality of the fan base and local sports journalists as in Anaheim, Arlington, Seattle, New York, Chicago (northside). that allows him to sit back and cherry pick, where other GMs could not.

 

where I think he may have been "exposed" is the weakness of preaching patience. as I alluded to in a couple of other threads, patience makes no difference if the players OBP sucks. patience is a means to an end, not an end. the point of patience is getting a good pitch to hit and then hitting said pitch, and if said pitch does not come, getting on base anyway. a .80 difference between ave and obp is of little value if the player is batting .225. that is what Beane is experiencing right now. guys who can draw all the BB/PA you want, but who can't hit.

 

edit for one more criticism - his payroll has risen significantly the past couple years, both in terms of amount and relative to other teams, yet he has not been able to parlay that into success on the field. still operating lower than most teams

 

also, I think he is a fine GM, but not the boy genius he's been made out to be.

[soccer10k]

Beane is definately a top 5 GM in the league. His A's teams contend year in and year out so what's not to like?