Baker's world of delusion

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

 

I assume that he didn't just say it in the paper. I assume that what he said "to the paper" was a paraphrase of what he told his team. If you think that there's zero chance of players taking something like that seriously, then why even have a manager? If your players respect you, I do believe they'll listen, and maybe even (gasp!) "try harder".

 

It's a dangerous assumption to make. Many coaches berate players in private while not bashing them publicly. And besides, think about what the criticism is. It's not basketball or football where increased hustle makes an extraordinary difference.

[davearm]

The Leyland quote is a good one.

 

I also seem to recall that our friend Ozzie wasn't shy about ripping the Sox in the press after a lackluster stretch of games long about the middle of September last year.

 

We know how that turned out.

[Pinktermite]

I think we should all realize that Dusty got his reputation from Barry's taking of the Flintstones Vitamins, and not from his managerial talent. There's absolutely no question that Leyland calling his team on the carpet was embarrassing to them and they responded. It's a method that's tried and true and it works, just read about Earl Weaver or Dick Williams. these men are professionals paid to do a job, not coddled while we say "Oh, they are just as frustrated as we are." If I performed in my job the way they do, I'd be fired and living on the streets drinking Mad Dog and eating cabbage from a dumpster. It's about time this team had a revolution around here. Frankly, I'm friggin sick of people saying Dusty is a "Player's manager", I want a manager that calls a spade a spade and a crappy performance a crappy performance. Remember when Harry would say, "Man, this guy makes 5 million a year and he can't even bunt the guy to second base." We need someone like that!!! Go Cubs, forever...

[LoneStarCubFan]

Sounds like we need this guy: http://www.speakeasy.org/~bucky/elia_tirade.html

[oldstyle81]

These type of complaints always annoy me. Yes the team has been horrible, and it's quite likely that Dusty understands that. What do you want him to say. Coming out and saying we've played like **** does nothing for anybody.

 

he could say "we really suck right now, there is no excuse but that"

"we cant hit the ball and when we do hit the ball the pitching fails"

[oldstyle81]

Pat and Ron brought up a good point with players that goes for managers also

 

When times are good and you are winning, no one notices that you have gone 1-26 and havent made contact in 4 straight games.

 

The giants had good teams so the spotlight was never really bright on dusty, his mistakes never were magnified because the teams were usually winning

[badgercub]

I agree with the Dude. The quotes people use to justify Dusty Bashing are ingnorant at best. I watch every game and he not only addresses problems. JP missing the cutoff man. He does like someone coaching men should do it. I coach high school kids . When something needs addressed i do it , but try to remain positive. If that does not work playing time is a great motivator. Ive seen the cubs pull Rusch and Williams out of the rotation . move the lineup around and try a varitey of ways to bring this team out of the doldrums. The truth is two fold.

 

The talent level is lacking and The season has to be played out. Thats baseball. The other truth is if a team does not when enough people lose their jobs. Everybody understands that one.

 

That being said Dusty is not perfect nor is he the boob , some people here try to make him into. Not on this team. Coach L

 

so, because you are a high school coach you are an authority? give me a break. My high school coach was a disciplinarian and called people out and sat them on the bench for less things than I have seen happen with players on this team, bottom line he got performance, and he got W's he won the private school championship 4 years in a row and lost in the championship game my senior year, went on to coach at the U of Minnesota and is now head coach at University of Illinois Chicago. He was a firm believer in the fundamentals (which has become obviously apparent that Dusty does not) and drilled them day in and day out and if we made mental mistakes on things we practiced all the time during a game we would stay after the game and practice until we got it right. I'd like to see Dusty get a pair and start calling people out, not just in the clubhouse, because if he is it isn't working, but in the media. Maybe then they will get back to doing what got them to the majors in the first place.

 

This is not meant to excuse Jim Hendry for his role in this debacle either.

[RynoRules]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

That's a total oversimplification of the effect a guy like Leyland can have on a team. I know you don't believe in motivation and that holding people accountable has any effect, but I think you are wrong. In almost every professional environment - be it baseball or a law office - when people know that results are expected and b.s. not tolerated, a tangible change occurs. The Tigers, IMO, are no exception.

 

I for one love what Leyland did.

[RynoRules]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

 

I assume that he didn't just say it in the paper. I assume that what he said "to the paper" was a paraphrase of what he told his team. If you think that there's zero chance of players taking something like that seriously, then why even have a manager? If your players respect you, I do believe they'll listen, and maybe even (gasp!) "try harder".

 

It's a dangerous assumption to make. Many coaches berate players in private while not bashing them publicly. And besides, think about what the criticism is. It's not basketball or football where increased hustle makes an extraordinary difference.

 

Increased concentration and commitment almost always make a difference. The Cubs concentration sucks, and has for years. That's why you see so many crappy outs on the basepaths and dumb plays in the field. The players are to blame, yes, but the majority of the blame goes to Dusty, IMO.

 

EDIT: And how the heck do you know that increased hustle doesn't make a difference in baseball? That's nonsense.

[CubfaninCA]

looks like we need larry bowa. he'd light a fire.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

 

I assume that he didn't just say it in the paper. I assume that what he said "to the paper" was a paraphrase of what he told his team. If you think that there's zero chance of players taking something like that seriously, then why even have a manager? If your players respect you, I do believe they'll listen, and maybe even (gasp!) "try harder".

 

It's a dangerous assumption to make. Many coaches berate players in private while not bashing them publicly. And besides, think about what the criticism is. It's not basketball or football where increased hustle makes an extraordinary difference.

 

Increased concentration and commitment almost always make a difference. The Cubs concentration sucks, and has for years. That's why you see so many crappy outs on the basepaths and dumb plays in the field. The players are to blame, yes, but the majority of the blame goes to Dusty, IMO.

 

EDIT: And how the heck do you know that increased hustle doesn't make a difference in baseball? That's nonsense.

 

I don't buy that a coach ripping the team in platitudes is the difference between them losing a series and then going on a winning streak.

 

And calling out a team in that nature is just as likely to make players press as it is to increase concentration and commitment. You can't hustle your way into hitting a line drive, or making a good throw to first.

[Soul]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

 

I assume that he didn't just say it in the paper. I assume that what he said "to the paper" was a paraphrase of what he told his team. If you think that there's zero chance of players taking something like that seriously, then why even have a manager? If your players respect you, I do believe they'll listen, and maybe even (gasp!) "try harder".

 

It's a dangerous assumption to make. Many coaches berate players in private while not bashing them publicly. And besides, think about what the criticism is. It's not basketball or football where increased hustle makes an extraordinary difference.

 

Increased concentration and commitment almost always make a difference. The Cubs concentration sucks, and has for years. That's why you see so many crappy outs on the basepaths and dumb plays in the field. The players are to blame, yes, but the majority of the blame goes to Dusty, IMO.

 

EDIT: And how the heck do you know that increased hustle doesn't make a difference in baseball? That's nonsense.

 

I don't buy that a coach ripping the team in platitudes is the difference between them losing a series and then going on a winning streak.

 

And calling out a team in that nature is just as likely to make players press as it is to increase concentration and commitment. You can't hustle your way into hitting a line drive, or making a good throw to first.

 

Come on. He doesn't rip them in private either, you know that. Let's stop pretending. He's a bump on a log; he's doing nothing.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Come on. He doesn't rip them in private either, you know that. Let's stop pretending. He's a bump on a log; he's doing nothing.

 

I wasn't talking about a specific situation.

[BigbadB]

should have hired leyland. of course, he's not a moneyballer, so that wouldn't be sufficient either.

 

I'd be fine with baby steps. Let's start with hiring someone who understands the value of a walk. How did the Cubs lose the first game against the Padres in this last series? They walked the lead off guy. Doh!

 

The current regime doesn't stress the importance of plate patience and waiting on a hitter's pitch. They preach aggressiveness. They scold players who don't show enough aggressiveness. They sign players who are aggressive. Considering their philosophy, it really makes no sense that they got rid of Patterson. He's aggressive at the plate, he can catch the ball and he's fast. Sounds like a perfect match.

 

Matt Murton is one of the few guys who had good plate patience. But, it sounds like Dusty is unhappy with his patience. All of a sudden, he's swinging at more pitches early in the count. The kid was hitting well over .300 at the time. Why would you mess with that?

[SouthSideRyan]

If everybody could keep citing the times where a manager calling out players in public helped and keep ignoring the times when it didn't, that'd be great.

 

I'll go next. Don Baylor on Corey Patt...no wait.

[snoodmonger]

I don't know if "going Leyland" on the players would help them perform better, but it would make me feel better because it's exactly what I want to say to them.

 

The problem, unfortunately, isn't effort. It's quality of personnel and the use of the personnel.

 

One of those things is our newly extended GM's fault. The other is the manager's.

[RynoRules]

If everybody could keep citing the times where a manager calling out players in public helped and keep ignoring the times when it didn't, that'd be great.

 

I'll go next. Don Baylor on Corey Patt...no wait.

 

How about last year's WS champs? Guillen called those guys out about once a week (and still does). It doesn't mean that it works in every situation. However, I think it would be a good thing for this Cubs team in light of their problems, which include bonehead baserunning mistakes and the like.

[RynoRules]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

 

I assume that he didn't just say it in the paper. I assume that what he said "to the paper" was a paraphrase of what he told his team. If you think that there's zero chance of players taking something like that seriously, then why even have a manager? If your players respect you, I do believe they'll listen, and maybe even (gasp!) "try harder".

 

It's a dangerous assumption to make. Many coaches berate players in private while not bashing them publicly. And besides, think about what the criticism is. It's not basketball or football where increased hustle makes an extraordinary difference.

 

Increased concentration and commitment almost always make a difference. The Cubs concentration sucks, and has for years. That's why you see so many crappy outs on the basepaths and dumb plays in the field. The players are to blame, yes, but the majority of the blame goes to Dusty, IMO.

 

EDIT: And how the heck do you know that increased hustle doesn't make a difference in baseball? That's nonsense.

 

I don't buy that a coach ripping the team in platitudes is the difference between them losing a series and then going on a winning streak.

 

And calling out a team in that nature is just as likely to make players press as it is to increase concentration and commitment. You can't hustle your way into hitting a line drive, or making a good throw to first.

 

Again, I completely disagree. I think holding people accountable has an effect. It may not be as tangible as stats, but there is an effect.

 

We've been down this road far too many times on this bd., but just b/c modern man hasn't figured out a way to measure something does not mean that it does not exist. I think you would admit that you and many others here tend to discard that which cannot be measured through stats. I disagree with that approach. Its provincial.

[louisvillecub]

I always look back to when Andruw Jones hotdogged a catch out in CF, and then dropped it and laughed. Bobby Cox saw that and pulled him out of the game that instant. I'm sure that had an effect on Jones...

[soapy]

Honestly, I don't necessarily believe that a public tirade is going to help, but honestly, at this point, can it get worse? Whatever Dusty (Hendry, Sarge, Clines) is doing now clearly isn't working. Why not try something else?

 

Shockingly, calling up another speedy, redundant, middle infielder and sitting him on the bench didn't spark the offense.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

 

I assume that he didn't just say it in the paper. I assume that what he said "to the paper" was a paraphrase of what he told his team. If you think that there's zero chance of players taking something like that seriously, then why even have a manager? If your players respect you, I do believe they'll listen, and maybe even (gasp!) "try harder".

 

It's a dangerous assumption to make. Many coaches berate players in private while not bashing them publicly. And besides, think about what the criticism is. It's not basketball or football where increased hustle makes an extraordinary difference.

 

Increased concentration and commitment almost always make a difference. The Cubs concentration sucks, and has for years. That's why you see so many crappy outs on the basepaths and dumb plays in the field. The players are to blame, yes, but the majority of the blame goes to Dusty, IMO.

 

EDIT: And how the heck do you know that increased hustle doesn't make a difference in baseball? That's nonsense.

 

I don't buy that a coach ripping the team in platitudes is the difference between them losing a series and then going on a winning streak.

 

And calling out a team in that nature is just as likely to make players press as it is to increase concentration and commitment. You can't hustle your way into hitting a line drive, or making a good throw to first.

 

Again, I completely disagree. I think holding people accountable has an effect. It may not be as tangible as stats, but there is an effect.

 

We've been down this road far too many times on this bd., but just b/c modern man hasn't figured out a way to measure something does not mean that it does not exist. I think you would admit that you and many others here tend to discard that which cannot be measured through stats. I disagree with that approach. Its provincial.

 

I'm not saying this because there's no statistical backing, I'm speaking theoretically, like I told Soul. Holding people accountable has an effect, but it's not necessarily a positive one. And again, given the nature of baseball compared to other sports(this is why Phil Jackson comparisons are poor examples), I question whether such a calling out of players would be likely to have a positive effect, and even if it does I think the difference in performance is likely to be marginal.

[badger1679666666]

Chris Shelton: Hey Pudge, did you see the paper with what skip said about the series? It's not very nice.

 

Pudge: Now that I think about it, he's right. I guess I'll try harder.

 

 

I assume that he didn't just say it in the paper. I assume that what he said "to the paper" was a paraphrase of what he told his team. If you think that there's zero chance of players taking something like that seriously, then why even have a manager? If your players respect you, I do believe they'll listen, and maybe even (gasp!) "try harder".

 

It's a dangerous assumption to make. Many coaches berate players in private while not bashing them publicly. And besides, think about what the criticism is. It's not basketball or football where increased hustle makes an extraordinary difference.

 

Increased concentration and commitment almost always make a difference. The Cubs concentration sucks, and has for years. That's why you see so many crappy outs on the basepaths and dumb plays in the field. The players are to blame, yes, but the majority of the blame goes to Dusty, IMO.

 

EDIT: And how the heck do you know that increased hustle doesn't make a difference in baseball? That's nonsense.

 

I don't buy that a coach ripping the team in platitudes is the difference between them losing a series and then going on a winning streak.

 

And calling out a team in that nature is just as likely to make players press as it is to increase concentration and commitment. You can't hustle your way into hitting a line drive, or making a good throw to first.

 

Again, I completely disagree. I think holding people accountable has an effect. It may not be as tangible as stats, but there is an effect.

 

We've been down this road far too many times on this bd., but just b/c modern man hasn't figured out a way to measure something does not mean that it does not exist. I think you would admit that you and many others here tend to discard that which cannot be measured through stats. I disagree with that approach. Its provincial.

 

I'm not saying this because there's no statistical backing, I'm speaking theoretically, like I told Soul. Holding people accountable has an effect, but it's not necessarily a positive one. And again, given the nature of baseball compared to other sports(this is why Phil Jackson comparisons are poor examples), I question whether such a calling out of players would be likely to have a positive effect, and even if it does I think the difference in performance is likely to be marginal.

 

I think individuall calling out players by name could have a negative effect like Juan Pierre has a noodle arm, or Sammy isnt a team player, or Jones sucks.

 

However to call out the entire team without mentioning a players name is a challenge to the pride of the group, and the group response will typically be cohesion, pride, and hopefully intensity and motivation.

[badgercub]

So, how has that not calling people out been working? They can't play any worse so let's try something different, or would you rather see more of the same?

[RynoRules]

I'm not saying this because there's no statistical backing, I'm speaking theoretically, like I told Soul. Holding people accountable has an effect, but it's not necessarily a positive one. And again, given the nature of baseball compared to other sports(this is why Phil Jackson comparisons are poor examples), I question whether such a calling out of players would be likely to have a positive effect, and even if it does I think the difference in performance is likely to be marginal.

 

Again, I completely disagree, but that's how it goes.

[USSoccer]

I'm not saying this because there's no statistical backing, I'm speaking theoretically, like I told Soul. Holding people accountable has an effect, but it's not necessarily a positive one. And again, given the nature of baseball compared to other sports(this is why Phil Jackson comparisons are poor examples), I question whether such a calling out of players would be likely to have a positive effect, and even if it does I think the difference in performance is likely to be marginal.

 

Again, I completely disagree, but that's how it goes.

 

I think that if you call out the group rather than single out individuals, it can have a positive effect.