Getting sick of Juan Pierre.

[Soul]

Derek Lee struggled his first April here.

 

Guess we should have benched/traded him, too.

[JGalt73]

Juan Pierre's Aprils...

 

April 2006: .256 .291 .329

April 2005: .297 .343 .407

April 2004: .319 .385 .394

April 2003: .266 .311 .323

April 2002: .284 .371 .284

April 2001: .344 .408 .406

[CubinNY]

Juan Pierre's Aprils...

 

April 2006: .256 .291 .329

April 2005: .297 .343 .407

April 2004: .319 .385 .394

April 2003: .266 .311 .323

April 2002: .284 .371 .284

April 2001: .344 .408 .406

 

I see a trend.

[badger1679666666]

Juan Pierre's Aprils...

 

April 2006: .256 .291 .329

April 2005: .297 .343 .407

April 2004: .319 .385 .394

April 2003: .266 .311 .323

April 2002: .284 .371 .284

April 2001: .344 .408 .406

 

I wish Hendry could read your signature. It's like a stake through my heart.

[Soul]

Juan Pierre's Aprils...

 

April 2006: .256 .291 .329

April 2005: .297 .343 .407

April 2004: .319 .385 .394

April 2003: .266 .311 .323

April 2002: .284 .371 .284

April 2001: .344 .408 .406

 

I see a trend.

 

Yes. 2003 was his first season as a Marlin.

[RyCubsFan]

Derek Lee struggled his first April here.

 

Guess we should have benched/traded him, too.

 

JP is no Derek Lee. JP is a one-dimensional ballplayer who hasn't been valuable to a team since 2004.

 

Sure, he's going to pick it up some. He has to, right? Right? (please say yes). The Cubs really need him to get on base at at least a .350 clip. We simply can't afford for him to continue to struggle.

 

I'm concerned though b/c he hasn't looked good so far. The fact that he didn't look good for most of last year merely adds to that concern. B/c if JP isn't getting on base, he's really not that good of a baseball player.

 

I'm a sucker for stolen bases as much as anyone. But are we all so blinded by his speed to see that he's a liability to the team if he doesn't get on base at an above average rate? He has no power. Baserunners run freelly off of him. In order to be valuable, JP has to get on base, and get on base often. So far, he hasn't done so.

 

If/when his OBP is at or above .350, I'll be the first person to cheer him. I really do want him to do well. Until that happens so, it certainly is frustrating.

[mhuber92211]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting to boo Pierre until he improves.

[cheapseats]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting to boo Pierre until he improves.

 

I for one will hold off on booing Pierre until he shows improvement, at which point I will begin to boo him vociferously.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting to boo Pierre until he improves.

 

I for one will hold off on booing Pierre until he shows improvement, at which point I will begin to boo him vociferously.

 

And I think that's ridiculous. It's not as if Pierre isn't trying or showing poor attitude. Creating a hostile home environment for players who are giving their best is the last thing we need, but unfortunately it's becoming the norm.

[frostwyrm]

Pierre has stolen 7 bases and been caught once. I bet his girlie arm has given away at least as many extra bases as he has gained thru his SB's. Yesterday we saw Miguel Cabrera, who's a bit pudgy these days, score embarrassingly easily on a single to CF. Pierre has to steal a ton just to get back the bases his arm gives away.

[RyCubsFan]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

 

Forgive me for not being clear. By "cheer" i meant "laud his praises," not the literal cheering at the ballpark. It's not my style to boo players and of course when at the ballpark I'll cheer for him as I will for any other player.

 

My point was to say: "Look, I'm not anti-Pierre. I want him to succeed, just like all Cubs players. In fact, he's seems like a tremendous guy with a wonderful work ethic. I also really enjoy watching him on the basepaths. So I'm not criticizing his play for simply the sake of doing so. And when/if he turns it around I'll be the first to admit that I was mistaken about him."

 

...But in the meantime, isn't it okay to point out that he's really struggling? And isn't it okay to also point out that he's struggled now since 2004? And isn't it okay to express concern that maybe...just maybe...he is and will continue to be a liability for the team? Because he is right now. His play is hurting the Cubs. We really need him to play better if we are going to survive this time without Lee, Prior, and Wood. He needs to pick it up, and pick it up fast. If he doesn't, I would have no problem with a Pie callup to take his place.

 

If Pierre doesn't get on base more frequently, he is a liability. He simply doesn't do anything else well enough to help the team in other ways.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

We should throw batteries at him. Isn't that what all classy fans do?

[CubinNY]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

 

Forgive me for not being clear. By "cheer" i meant "laud his praises," not the literal cheering at the ballpark. It's not my style to boo players and of course when at the ballpark I'll cheer for him as I will for any other player.

 

My point was to say: "Look, I'm not anti-Pierre. I want him to succeed, just like all Cubs players. In fact, he's seems like a tremendous guy with a wonderful work ethic. I also really enjoy watching him on the basepaths. So I'm not criticizing his play for simply the sake of doing so. And when/if he turns it around I'll be the first to admit that I was mistaken about him."

 

...But in the meantime, isn't it okay to point out that he's really struggling? And isn't it okay to also point out that he's struggled now since 2004? And isn't it okay to express concern that maybe...just maybe...he is and will continue to be a liability for the team? Because he is right now. His play is hurting the Cubs. We really need him to play better if we are going to survive this time without Lee, Prior, and Wood. He needs to pick it up, and pick it up fast. If he doesn't, I would have no problem with a Pie callup to take his place.

 

If Pierre doesn't get on base more frequently, he is a liability. He simply doesn't do anything else well enough to help the team in other ways.

 

Well written.

[badger1679666666]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

 

Forgive me for not being clear. By "cheer" i meant "laud his praises," not the literal cheering at the ballpark. It's not my style to boo players and of course when at the ballpark I'll cheer for him as I will for any other player.

 

My point was to say: "Look, I'm not anti-Pierre. I want him to succeed, just like all Cubs players. In fact, he's seems like a tremendous guy with a wonderful work ethic. I also really enjoy watching him on the basepaths. So I'm not criticizing his play for simply the sake of doing so. And when/if he turns it around I'll be the first to admit that I was mistaken about him."

 

...But in the meantime, isn't it okay to point out that he's really struggling? And isn't it okay to also point out that he's struggled now since 2004? And isn't it okay to express concern that maybe...just maybe...he is and will continue to be a liability for the team? Because he is right now. His play is hurting the Cubs. We really need him to play better if we are going to survive this time without Lee, Prior, and Wood. He needs to pick it up, and pick it up fast. If he doesn't, I would have no problem with a Pie callup to take his place.

 

If Pierre doesn't get on base more frequently, he is a liability. He simply doesn't do anything else well enough to help the team in other ways.

 

perfectly written.

[cheapseats]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting to boo Pierre until he improves.

 

I for one will hold off on booing Pierre until he shows improvement, at which point I will begin to boo him vociferously.

 

And I think that's ridiculous. It's not as if Pierre isn't trying or showing poor attitude. Creating a hostile home environment for players who are giving their best is the last thing we need, but unfortunately it's becoming the norm.

 

Maybe I should have used a smiley to indicate I was kidding. Would this one do? :twisted:

 

Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think Pierre should be booed for his lack of power or his noodle arm. If he fails to run out a ground ball or tries to steal third with two outs (ahem, Jerry Hairston) or lets a fly ball drop because he thinks Jacque Jones is going to catch it, those are causes for booing. It's OK to express disapproval when a guy does something selfish or stupid. It's not fair to blame someone for being who he is.

 

However, I do believe that good things can come from booing. The Cubs have a track record of getting rid of players who the fans dislike. The key would be educating the fans at Wrigley to boo for the proper players. Maybe volunteers could pass out information about Neifi, Jacque, etc before games?

[goonys evil twin]

However, I do believe that good things can come from booing. The Cubs have a track record of getting rid of players who the fans dislike. The key would be educating the fans at Wrigley to boo for the proper players. Maybe volunteers could pass out information about Neifi, Jacque, etc before games?

 

The loud booing and subsequent banishment of Patterson is what led to the high price paid to acquire Pierre. I don't want management making decisions based on fan/player interaction, or else you might see them going out and signing the Augie Ojedas of the world.

[cheapseats]

However, I do believe that good things can come from booing. The Cubs have a track record of getting rid of players who the fans dislike. The key would be educating the fans at Wrigley to boo for the proper players. Maybe volunteers could pass out information about Neifi, Jacque, etc before games?

 

The loud booing and subsequent banishment of Patterson is what led to the high price paid to acquire Pierre. I don't want management making decisions based on fan/player interaction, or else you might see them going out and signing the Augie Ojedas of the world.

 

Hence the need to educate the fans. If fans boo the bad players, spineless management gets rid of the bad players.

 

Of course, you do point out the weakness of said approach: the fans don't have any control over who replaces the bad players.

 

If we got a good GM and a manager who could teach fundamentals and stay out of the way, we'd be set.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

However, I do believe that good things can come from booing. The Cubs have a track record of getting rid of players who the fans dislike. The key would be educating the fans at Wrigley to boo for the proper players. Maybe volunteers could pass out information about Neifi, Jacque, etc before games?

 

The loud booing and subsequent banishment of Patterson is what led to the high price paid to acquire Pierre. I don't want management making decisions based on fan/player interaction, or else you might see them going out and signing the Augie Ojedas of the world.

 

Hence the need to educate the fans. If fans boo the bad players, spineless management gets rid of the bad players.

 

Of course, you do point out the weakness of said approach: the fans don't have any control over who replaces the bad players.

 

If we got a good GM and a manager who could teach fundamentals and stay out of the way, we'd be set.

 

But if we had a good GM and manager, we wouldn't have to educate them by booing.

[cheapseats]

However, I do believe that good things can come from booing. The Cubs have a track record of getting rid of players who the fans dislike. The key would be educating the fans at Wrigley to boo for the proper players. Maybe volunteers could pass out information about Neifi, Jacque, etc before games?

 

The loud booing and subsequent banishment of Patterson is what led to the high price paid to acquire Pierre. I don't want management making decisions based on fan/player interaction, or else you might see them going out and signing the Augie Ojedas of the world.

 

Hence the need to educate the fans. If fans boo the bad players, spineless management gets rid of the bad players.

 

Of course, you do point out the weakness of said approach: the fans don't have any control over who replaces the bad players.

 

If we got a good GM and a manager who could teach fundamentals and stay out of the way, we'd be set.

 

But if we had a good GM and manager, we wouldn't have to educate them by booing.

 

Right, that's what I meant. Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.

[swordsman]

I hate to point it out but by the time you are at the ballpark booing, management already has your ticket money, your beer money, your hotdog money, your nacho money, your hot pretzel money, your t-shirt money, and your hat money.

 

Management says "Come on out to the ballpark and boo all you want! CHA-CHING!!!"

[cheapseats]

I hate to point it out but by the time you are at the ballpark booing, management already has your ticket money, your beer money, your hotdog money, your nacho money, your hot pretzel money, your t-shirt money, and your hat money.

 

Management says "Come on out to the ballpark and boo all you want! CHA-CHING!!!"

 

No, while the first part of your post is definitely true, the latter part is not.

 

Actually, the fact that the people booing are paying customers makes management more concerned (not less concerned) about their sentiments than they would be about what gets posted on a site like this one or what Jay Marriotti writes in a column.

 

The booing is an embarassment to management, particularly with a team like the Cubs, who are very visible because of their television deals.

 

One can certainly make the argument that Latroy, Sammy, Hundley, Corey, etc would have been shown the door without boos from the fans, but the fans probably do make an impact on roster decisions.

 

Like it or not, a lot of people go to Wrigley for the nostalgia of the park and (if the people around you aren't TOO drunk) the pleasant atmosphere. If fans create a negative atmosphere, part of the appeal of the Wrigley experience diminishes, and management has to do what most other teams have to do: field a winning team to sell tickets.

 

It's not unrealistic to argue that such a thing could happen. In 1997, when I first moved to Chicago, average attendance was just barely over 27,000. It wasn't impossible to get Cubs/Cardinals seats at the ticket window on the day of the game.

[swordsman]

My point is that if you want to get managment's attention, stop going to games, stop buying t-shirts, stop watching on tv, start buying tickets to sox games, and vocally let them know why, (letters to the editor, call in to sports talk shows, call them, write them, stand on the street corner with a sandwich board) but don't give them your money first. The last three seasons since 03 have seen more booing and more tickets sold than ever. Which do you think management cares more about?

[Joe_Cub]

Lucky's hitting .167-.219-.167 vs LHPs in 30 ABs this year and .308-.333-.423 vs RHPs in 52 ABs. He hasn't ever had LHP-RHP splits like that in MLB. Cubs have faced a lot of LHPs lately.

 

Making the adjustment against LHPs will help him alot and he will do that. He's a hard worker and has a good attitude.

[cheapseats]

My point is that if you want to get managment's attention, stop going to games, stop buying t-shirts, stop watching on tv, start buying tickets to sox games, and vocally let them know why, (letters to the editor, call in to sports talk shows, call them, write them, stand on the street corner with a sandwich board) but don't give them your money first. The last three seasons since 03 have seen more booing and more tickets sold than ever. Which do you think management cares more about?

 

The Cubs don't care if one person quits going to games. They don't care if a few hundred people quit going to games. Those people can be easily replaced right now. You made the point yourself that they've sold more tickets than ever during the past three years (although they've been averaging 32,000+ since 1998). Any season tickets that are relinquished will be snatched up by those on a years-long waiting list.

 

Cubs management won't care nearly as much about callers on talk radio or newspaper articles as they will negative behavior at the games.

 

I do fundraising research for a $100 million organization that's been around for over a hundred years. My institution is like most companies: if a group of our constituents has a problem with us, it's a much bigger deal than if a group of outsiders has a problem with us.

 

I do like the idea of standing at the street corner with a sandwich board, but I like the idea of fans wearing anti-management shirts to the game better.

 

Devilrays fans staged protests last year - including an in-game walkout - and Tampa ownership changed during the offseason. Was the ownership change (and subsequent firing of the GM) directly effected by the demonstrations? No, certainly there were other factors in play, but the very public and visible protests put the owner in a difficult position.