Sergio Mitre - 6 Innings Shut out

[SouthSideRyan]

I didn't predict he'd be a Cy Young candidate by now, but I sure as heck had no interest trading away young talent to add those marginal veteran (expensive) upgrades to what was nothing more than a mediocre team still a couple years away from potential greatness.

 

This is revisionism however. The Cubs were coming off of an 88 win season, had Wood looking to be back to '98 form, had McGriff and presumably Mueller for a full season and had just signed Moises Alou who wasn't expected to mail in the entire season. On top of all that, Juan Cruz had an encouraging end of '01 and Mark Prior was on the horizon waiting to be added to the rotation

[goonys evil twin]

I didn't predict he'd be a Cy Young candidate by now, but I sure as heck had no interest trading away young talent to add those marginal veteran (expensive) upgrades to what was nothing more than a mediocre team still a couple years away from potential greatness.

 

This is revisionism however. The Cubs were coming off of an 88 win season, had Wood looking to be back to '98 form, had McGriff and presumably Mueller for a full season and had just signed Moises Alou who wasn't expected to mail in the entire season. On top of all that, Juan Cruz had an encouraging end of '01 and Mark Prior was on the horizon waiting to be added to the rotation

 

That team was not on the verge of potential greatness. It is not revisionist to make that claim. The 2001 team had some things go their way, but they went from 65 to 88 wins with marginal improvements. I sure as heck wasn't thinking that 2002 team was poised for 95 wins. I thought the 2001 team was a .500 ballclub that got a little lucky. 88 wins was a fluke. Regardless, Hendry was asst GM that year, put together that deal and it blew up in his face.

[SouthSideRyan]

It's not like the '01 Cubs outperformed their pythagorean by 8 wins or something. They underperformed by 1 win. (And had a better pythagorean than division winning Houston) Sosa was due for some regression since his season was flat out amazing, and Mueller likely wouldn't put up a 400 OBP over a full season, but the rest of his season wouldn't theoretically be taken by Ron Coomer. Poised for greatness maybe not, but certainly a serious contender for the division.

if you could distinguish anyone from that Boise squad you were either clairvoyant or had alot of time on your hands to bum around the Pacific northwest.

Not the time or the place, but Idaho isn't part of the Pacific Northwest, inasmuch as it doesn't have a coastline at all. It's part of the Empty Quarter/Intermountain West, whatever you want to call it.

[Mark Priors Calves]

I just can't believe Mitre is the #2 starter.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I just can't believe Mitre is the #2 starter.

 

What's worse -- Mitre as your #2 or Glendon Rusch?

[Danny82]

I think we all know that Rusch isn't really the Cubs #2...even with Prior and Wood out.

[badger1679666666]

I just can't believe Mitre is the #2 starter.

 

What's worse -- Mitre as your #2 or Glendon Rusch?

 

I think people are failing to understand he's not a number 2.

 

Baker wanted to get Maddux and Zambrano against the Red Birds, so that's why Rusch went 2nd.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The only time that label matters is the first time through the rotation.

[RynoRules]

Can anyone honestly say that they knew who Dontrelle Willis was when we traded him - and that he would turn out to be valuable major leaguer? I'm not about to. I was happy to add Clement and Alfonseca. We needed a closer and it turned out Clement was a very good starter. A year or two later Willis has a great rookie year. I'm so tired of hearing about how we could let him go to Florida. He was an 18 year old rookie baller who pitched in exactly 9 games for us.

 

Alfonseca sucked. He had one year where he racked up 45 saves, but didn't pitch great at all. He was a closer in name only. And Clement, was, remained and still is a walk machine who cannot be counted on. I used to follow the minors more then and was starting to like Dontrelle around that time. I didn't predict he'd be a Cy Young candidate by now, but I sure as heck had no interest trading away young talent to add those marginal veteran (expensive) upgrades to what was nothing more than a mediocre team still a couple years away from potential greatness. And I thought he had a very good chance to be a valuable major leaguer. Yes, I knew who he was, and no I didn't "know" he'd make it, but I liked his chances.

 

While it's revisionism to say you knew Willis would be great, it's just as revisionist to suggest nobody knew who he was.

 

I don't think its revisionist - its probably an overstatement though. Accordingly, I think you'd agree that few knew who Willis was prior to the trade. I'd also add that he jumped from AA; I don't think he ever played a game at AAA.

 

Few fans might have known, but that doesn't excuse the baseball people working for the Cubs for not knowing. The Marlins asked specifically for Willis. Somebody knew something.

 

I really ddiin't think much about it at the time as I read that his winde up was hard to repeat and he was prone to arm injuries. But the numbers were there, and he appeared to be a pretty decent prospect.

 

Maybe, but that is not what we were addressing above. My view is that we were talking about "we the critical fanbase", not the Cubs front office. Its disingenious, IMO, to assert that more than a few fans knew at that time Willis was a future Cy Young candidate or even knew that he existed.

[goonys evil twin]

Maybe, but that is not what we were addressing above. My view is that we were talking about "we the critical fanbase", not the Cubs front office. Its disingenious, IMO, to assert that more than a few fans knew at that time Willis was a future Cy Young candidate or even knew that he existed.

 

The original claim was that nobody knew who he was. That's disingenuos.

 

And who cares how many fans knew, they still gave him up. People want to applaud him for getting Matt Murton, who was a relatively unheard of prospect (and I think he does deserve praise for that). But then you also have to criticize him for giving up Willis. It doesn't matter if fans knew him, or if we thought well of him. Jim had the inside info.

[RynoRules]

Maybe, but that is not what we were addressing above. My view is that we were talking about "we the critical fanbase", not the Cubs front office. Its disingenious, IMO, to assert that more than a few fans knew at that time Willis was a future Cy Young candidate or even knew that he existed.

 

The original claim was that nobody knew who he was. That's disingenuos.

 

And who cares how many fans knew, they still gave him up. People want to applaud him for getting Matt Murton, who was a relatively unheard of prospect (and I think he does deserve praise for that). But then you also have to criticize him for giving up Willis. It doesn't matter if fans knew him, or if we thought well of him. Jim had the inside info.

 

That wasn't the point of the convo as I remember it. In any case, you have to give value to get value. Clement was good during his stay with us. Willis has been for the most part better than Clement was (Willis' 2004 was, at best, average), but I for one won't kill JH for taking that risk. I am mainly upset with JH for the things he has failed to do.

[jjgman21]

 

The Marlins asked specifically for Willis. Somebody knew something.

 

 

I think that should be taken with a grain of salt. I have seen one article that state that...an AP wire article, without quotes, and without a byline. considering the state of sports journalism in this country, I wouldn't give it too much weight.

 

BA's take on Willis at the time

 

 

Cueto ranked 16th on the Cubs Top 30 I did for our Prospect Handbook, while Willis was 21st and Jorgensen was 22nd. Of course, Chicago's Top 30 is deeper than most and they would have ranked higher with most other organizations, but the Cubs could afford to trade them.

 

Willis, 20, is a talented lefty, but he has an average fastball rather than working in the mid-90s. He's projectable, but he also has yet to reach full-season ball yet.

 

so if Bienfiest really did insist on Dontrelle, that's more a credit to him than a knock on the Cubs because the foremost experts didn't see anything all that special.

 

as for not wanting to trade him and keep the farm stocked, the Cubs farm system was ridiculously stocked at the time. Willis, Guzman, Mitre, Krawiec, Ryu, Bruback, Smyth, Cruz, Zambrano, Pinto (?), Ferreras, I'm probably missing a couple/few...and they knew they were going to be able to draft Prior at the time of the trade.

 

there were chips to trade to fill a few holes, which was pretty necessary, because that is the type of fanbase we are.

[goonys evil twin]

Maybe, but that is not what we were addressing above. My view is that we were talking about "we the critical fanbase", not the Cubs front office. Its disingenious, IMO, to assert that more than a few fans knew at that time Willis was a future Cy Young candidate or even knew that he existed.

 

The original claim was that nobody knew who he was. That's disingenuos.

 

And who cares how many fans knew, they still gave him up. People want to applaud him for getting Matt Murton, who was a relatively unheard of prospect (and I think he does deserve praise for that). But then you also have to criticize him for giving up Willis. It doesn't matter if fans knew him, or if we thought well of him. Jim had the inside info.

 

That wasn't the point of the convo as I remember it. In any case, you have to give value to get value. Clement was good during his stay with us. Willis has been for the most part better than Clement was (Willis' 2004 was, at best, average), but I for one won't kill JH for taking that risk. I am mainly upset with JH for the things he has failed to do.

 

Well, I don't like to get bogged down into "this deal vs that deal" discussions for rating Hendry. I don't think you can ranks GMs that way, because they all have their good and bad deals. I still refer back to the two or three themes that piss me off the most.

 

1) They haven't won enough. Plain and simple. They've had enough payroll. They had enough resources. He's been around for a while and they're still not great. I want great.

 

2) The unhealthy distaste for all things modern in terms of analyzing the game. They hired a PR shlub to be the numbers guy. They're all about scouts and "baseball men". While the old ways bring lots of value, and and the new school is by no means perfect, the Cubs have refused to even think about having some sort of balance between the methodologies. They are extreme in the old direction.

 

3) The complete refusal to realize and rectify the problem of walks, both with pitchers giving them up and hitters not taking them.

[CubinNY]

 

The Marlins asked specifically for Willis. Somebody knew something.

 

 

I think that should be taken with a grain of salt. I have seen one article that state that...an AP wire article, without quotes, and without a byline. considering the state of sports journalism in this country, I wouldn't give it too much weight.

 

BA's take on Willis at the time

 

 

Cueto ranked 16th on the Cubs Top 30 I did for our Prospect Handbook, while Willis was 21st and Jorgensen was 22nd. Of course, Chicago's Top 30 is deeper than most and they would have ranked higher with most other organizations, but the Cubs could afford to trade them.

 

Willis, 20, is a talented lefty, but he has an average fastball rather than working in the mid-90s. He's projectable, but he also has yet to reach full-season ball yet.

 

so if Bienfiest really did insist on Dontrelle, that's more a credit to him than a knock on the Cubs because the foremost experts didn't see anything all that special.

 

as for not wanting to trade him and keep the farm stocked, the Cubs farm system was ridiculously stocked at the time. Willis, Guzman, Mitre, Krawiec, Ryu, Bruback, Smyth, Cruz, Zambrano, Pinto (?), Ferreras, I'm probably missing a couple/few...and they knew they were going to be able to draft Prior at the time of the trade.

 

there were chips to trade to fill a few holes, which was pretty necessary, because that is the type of fanbase we are.

 

At the time of the trade I was living in Miami. I don't know about the wire reports but I heard Loria's son in law state on WQAM radio that the scouts were real high on this Willis kid. At the time he was taking call after call defending the trade. The Marlin fans were furious b/c they saw it as just another salary dump.

 

The most interesting aspect of the trade was Alf. Dale Torbord, son of Jeff Torborg and a professional Wrestler was the strength and conditioning coach for the Marlins. The Marlins were worried about El pupo's (the octopus) off-season "conditioning" so they assigned Torborg to work him out every day. After about the third day Alf started hiding from Dale. At one point Dale had to go and track him down. He was hiding in the stall of the ladies bathroom. Soon after Alf was packaged with Matt.

[rawaction]

Nolasco just made his ML debut. Walked Ensberg, gave up a single to Wilson, then K'd Lane and Munson, before getting Everett to groundout.

 

1 IP, 1 H, 0 ER, 1 BB, 2 Ks

[rawaction]

A perfect 4th inning for Nolasco. K'd in his 1st ML AB.

[Illini Iceman]

Maybe, but that is not what we were addressing above. My view is that we were talking about "we the critical fanbase", not the Cubs front office. Its disingenious, IMO, to assert that more than a few fans knew at that time Willis was a future Cy Young candidate or even knew that he existed.

 

The original claim was that nobody knew who he was. That's disingenuos.

 

And who cares how many fans knew, they still gave him up. People want to applaud him for getting Matt Murton, who was a relatively unheard of prospect (and I think he does deserve praise for that). But then you also have to criticize him for giving up Willis. It doesn't matter if fans knew him, or if we thought well of him. Jim had the inside info.

 

That wasn't the point of the convo as I remember it. In any case, you have to give value to get value. Clement was good during his stay with us. Willis has been for the most part better than Clement was (Willis' 2004 was, at best, average), but I for one won't kill JH for taking that risk. I am mainly upset with JH for the things he has failed to do.

 

If the Cubs don't make the trade they don't win the division without Clement and therefore would not have made the playoffs.

 

In retrospect you could argue that not making the playoffs would have been a good thing considering the NLCS anguish involved, but that is another story all together.

[Brian]

1BB in Ricky's 3rd inning of work.

[larhur]

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