You cannot underestimate the importance of speed

[FergieJ31]

I interpreted his original post to refer to more qualitative aspects of the game -- things that are difficult or impossible to measure with stats but are apparent when you watch the games. And I would agree with him 100% on that.

 

I said entity has very little measureable effect, how important is it?

 

We're in agreement - please note what I bolded above.

[frostwyrm]

Speed, and fielding will increase in importance exponantially in the non steroid era. Money allocation included. They have become undervalued because of The book moneyball and some i repeat some sabermetric viewpoints. Ask Adam Dunn if being able to field is important . He can bring it at the plate. but it kills you to have a Dave Kingman glove in the of .Yeah i lived through that era. The point is scouting oriented teams like Atlanta have seen the value of multi metric evaluations , including a stopwatch. Their success cannot be denied. Coach L

Your economics don't make sense. When a resource becomes scarcer its price goes up, not down. The non-steroid era will not see a devaluation of power. If anything, the decreased presence of power throughout MLB will make it even more impactful for teams that do have it. A guy with 40 HR power is going to be more of a difference-maker than in the late 90's.

[UK1679666180]

Speed, and fielding will increase in importance exponantially in the non steroid era. Money allocation included. They have become undervalued because of The book moneyball and some i repeat some sabermetric viewpoints. Ask Adam Dunn if being able to field is important . He can bring it at the plate. but it kills you to have a Dave Kingman glove in the of .Yeah i lived through that era. The point is scouting oriented teams like Atlanta have seen the value of multi metric evaluations , including a stopwatch. Their success cannot be denied. Coach L

 

Every team has scouts and every scout has a stop watch, every scout wants to see times to 1B between 4.0-4.2 from the L side and 4.1-4.3 from the Rh side. That includes the A's, I happen to know the area scout for the A's and if you see if at a game as I probably will this weekend, he'll have his stop watch.

 

Scouts also want to see 60yd times under 7 as well as 1B to 3B.

 

Speed and fielding have been decreased but, fundamentals are weak from the time they leave little league to the time they get to the majors.

 

Speed has decreased b/c astro-turf is gone and parks have become smaller moreso than "moneyball".

 

Moneyball has had a minimal impact on baseball, but a great impact on fans.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The point of this thread IS NOT that speed is more important than stats, or other facets of the game. Its' just that it gets SICKENING how some (not all) can discredit its importance because its not next to OBP and HRs in the statbook.

 

Look, I'll be the first to admit OBP and other things are much more important than speed. However as we saw today, our increase in overall team speed will be an asset which will put us over the top in more than a few games.

 

So you admit that speed is not as important as OBP, but then you claim it's sickeninig that people don't think it's as important as OBP?

 

 

Goony, you're putting words in his mouth.

 

Where in his initial post (or any subsequent post) did he claim that it's sickening that people don't thinkit's important as OBP? He merely mentioned that Speed can and will play a huge part in the Cubs team this year - which is accurate.

 

uh...

[badger1679666666]

The point of this thread IS NOT that speed is more important than stats, or other facets of the game. Its' just that it gets SICKENING how some (not all) can discredit its importance because its not next to OBP and HRs in the statbook.

 

Look, I'll be the first to admit OBP and other things are much more important than speed. However as we saw today, our increase in overall team speed will be an asset which will put us over the top in more than a few games.

 

So you admit that speed is not as important as OBP, but then you claim it's sickeninig that people don't think it's as important as OBP?

 

 

Goony, you're putting words in his mouth.

 

Where in his initial post (or any subsequent post) did he claim that it's sickening that people don't thinkit's important as OBP? He merely mentioned that Speed can and will play a huge part in the Cubs team this year - which is accurate.

 

uh...

 

Ok, I'm wrong. I'm gonna go crawl back into the whole from whence I came.

 

:oops:

 

Sorry Goony.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Speed is quantifiable.

 

Speed is important and today it is undervalued by the marketplace. That's why you see 3 CF across Oakland's OF. You don't need to play small ball to see the benefits of speed. 1st to 3rd instead of holding up at 2nd. 2nd to home instead of chilling at 3rd. Station to station ball is benefitted by speed.

 

And yes, speed can be determined from a player's performance on the field quantitatively (and therefore statistically).

[treebird]

blah blah blah when we weren't good cause we were fast, we were good cause we didn't make many outs. plus it was was just the reds. plus they played bad defense.

[Monco]

Speed doesn't slump.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Speed doesn't slump.

 

Only when stealing bases.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Speed doesn't slump.

 

Then why'd we get rid of Patterson?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

The point of this thread IS NOT that speed is more important than stats, or other facets of the game. Its' just that it gets SICKENING how some (not all) can discredit its importance because its not next to OBP and HRs in the statbook.

 

Look, I'll be the first to admit OBP and other things are much more important than speed. However as we saw today, our increase in overall team speed will be an asset which will put us over the top in more than a few games.

 

So you admit that speed is not as important as OBP, but then you claim it's sickeninig that people don't think it's as important as OBP?

 

 

Goony, you're putting words in his mouth.

 

Where in his initial post (or any subsequent post) did he claim that it's sickening that people don't thinkit's important as OBP? He merely mentioned that Speed can and will play a huge part in the Cubs team this year - which is accurate.

 

uh...

 

he said it's sickening that you guys don't think it's important (not as important) b/c it isn't listed next to OBP and HR in a stats sheet.

 

so yes, Goony did put words in his mouth.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Speed doesn't slump.

 

Then why'd we get rid of Patterson?

 

b/c he couldn't get on base. what does that have to do with speed not slumping?

 

i realize you can't use speed w/o getting on base, but that's a separate argument from speed not slumping.

[Mizzou]

Speed doesn't slump.

 

Then why'd we get rid of Patterson?

Because he's not good at baseball?

[Guest]

So if it is impossible to underestimate the value of speed, that means it is actually worthless, right?

[Monco]

I think its good that the Cubs are finally putting speed on their bench instead of strikeout prone hitters with some power.

[JeffH]

So if it is impossible to underestimate the value of speed, that means it is actually worthless, right?

 

Tim, nice catch on the incorrectly worded title of the thread.

[frostwyrm]

Speed is important and today it is undervalued by the marketplace.

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

[radarluv1]

just out of curiousity, who's fastest among pie, pierre, patterson and pagan? and are scouts assigned to prospects alphabetically, because maybe just 1 guy in the whole organization likes speed?

[anemic offense]

It played a HUGE factor in today's game, and its presence should be prevalent throughout the season. Stats can be a great measure of one's performance, but it doesn't do many facets a great deal of justice. It's not just the ability to score with speed that's important, its being able to use it in certain situations thereby manipulating runs (in close games) which is. IMO, it will win us a substantial amount of games this season.

 

Actually, scoring speed is extremely easy. Just grab a stopwatch.

 

And scoring the use of said speed isn't too difficult either.

 

So I don't see at all how saying speed is important somehow implies it matters more than stats, especially considering said stats include that speed.

 

Here we go again :roll: .

 

The point of this thread IS NOT that speed is more important than stats, or other facets of the game. Its' just that it gets SICKENING how some (not all) can discredit its importance because its not next to OBP and HRs in the statbook.

 

Look, I'll be the first to admit OBP and other things are much more important than speed. However as we saw today, our increase in overall team speed will be an asset which will put us over the top in more than a few games.

 

I wont debate that the speed will put us over the top in a few games. And I even recognize it's importance in keeping us from being so streaky as we've been the last few years. But what I could debate is that the cost of that speed might keep us from winning an equal number.

 

Yeah, given two guys with roughly equal abilities, where one is much faster than the other, it's obvious what to do.

 

But if you give me the option of Juan Pierre or Grady Sizemore, I'll pick Sizemore everytime. Sizemore's better Slug% more than makes up for the difference in speed.

 

Speed certainly is an asset. It's just not as much of a valuable asset to a large-market team like the Cubs. We can afford better talent than a guy like Juan Pierre, no matter how fast he is.

 

Now I certainly don't mean to discredit speed as being unimportant by any means, but I think it is important to keep things in perspective.

 

That all being said, I looooooved watching Pagan burning today.

 

Gotcha. I agree with that.

 

A lot of what I said was in retort to some of the complaining associated with the Pierre trade. Sure Juan Pierre's not the greatest player in the world and he certainly wouldn't have been first choice if I had my pick of the litter. However, when people routinely used his stats to make the argument he wasn't very good, they were leaving out an aspect of his name numbers can't qualify.

 

Every now and then you stumble upon players who are better seen in person than they are from the boxscore. I think Pierre is one of those guys.

[badger1679666666]

The point of this thread IS NOT that speed is more important than stats, or other facets of the game. Its' just that it gets SICKENING how some (not all) can discredit its importance because its not next to OBP and HRs in the statbook.

 

Look, I'll be the first to admit OBP and other things are much more important than speed. However as we saw today, our increase in overall team speed will be an asset which will put us over the top in more than a few games.

 

So you admit that speed is not as important as OBP, but then you claim it's sickeninig that people don't think it's as important as OBP?

 

 

Goony, you're putting words in his mouth.

 

Where in his initial post (or any subsequent post) did he claim that it's sickening that people don't thinkit's important as OBP? He merely mentioned that Speed can and will play a huge part in the Cubs team this year - which is accurate.

 

uh...

 

he said it's sickening that you guys don't think it's important (not as important) b/c it isn't listed next to OBP and HR in a stats sheet.

 

so yes, Goony did put words in his mouth.

 

I should have read it again by myself. I retract my apology to Goony, he did totally put words in Anemic Offense's mouth.

[anemic offense]

The point of this thread IS NOT that speed is more important than stats, or other facets of the game. Its' just that it gets SICKENING how some (not all) can discredit its importance because its not next to OBP and HRs in the statbook.

 

Look, I'll be the first to admit OBP and other things are much more important than speed. However as we saw today, our increase in overall team speed will be an asset which will put us over the top in more than a few games.

 

So you admit that speed is not as important as OBP, but then you claim it's sickeninig that people don't think it's as important as OBP?

 

A fast player with no OBP isn't as good as a slow player with lots of OBP. If two guys have the same OBP, it's better to have the faster guy. But speed is already partly factored into OBP, because if a guy is fast he should be beating out more balls than others, which helps his OBP.

 

Is it really necessary to critique people who aren't as enamored of speed as you when you praise the speed of this team? I don't see the point. I don't think anybody is wishing for a slow team, or slower players. I think a lot of people put speed down the list of definitions of a good player. Speed is neither necessary to be good, nor does it guarantee you will be good. It's a small part of the package, but it can still be impactful.

 

I never said that it was as important as OBP! Find that in ANY of my posts and I'll give you a 100 bucks. But you cant' so I won't have to.

 

For the millionth time I have NEVER stated speed was as important as OBP. However, when I HAVE stated that I thought speed could win us a few games, and that Pierre (specifically) adds a dimension to this team numbers can't quantify, I've the statistically inclined posters telling me if "well you can't prove that". Well from a numbers standpoint, your right I can't, but after watching today's game you'd have to be a fool to say this team's speed won't be an added X factor (and win us a few extra games, namely close ones). I don't understand where all this "speed is more important than OBP" crap is coming from. Not from me.

[srbin84]

I like the new lineup and bench and the fact we have a lot of fast guys who can make contact and get on base in a number of different ways. I think that is very valuable, and I really don't care what Alou's OPS is, I'll take Pierre over him any day.

[anemic offense]

I'm not against having good speed throughout the line up, but it wasn't speed that won today's game. It helped create more runs, but the ridiculous OBP in today's game mixed with 7 XBH's is what won this game.

 

What was the team OBP today? .600?

 

I agree. And I never said it won us today's game (obviously it didn't). But the presence of speed was so profound, as was the ability to put it to good use, that one can easily surmise it will help us win a hand full of games this year. It's not going to do so by itself, but in a close game where we can manipulate situations and runs with our speed, it will nab us a few. That's what I'm saying.

[Monco]

Intangibles are hard to measure.Does he bring leadership, is he a leader,teacher etc?Stats are an easy guage to use but are misleading without digging deep.We've all seen players who hits the 3 run homer when their teams up 5 runs but when its a close game he doesn't deliever.His hr and rbi numbers look good but he didn't bring the team alot.

[anemic offense]

The point of this thread IS NOT that speed is more important than stats, or other facets of the game. Its' just that it gets SICKENING how some (not all) can discredit its importance because its not next to OBP and HRs in the statbook.

 

Look, I'll be the first to admit OBP and other things are much more important than speed. However as we saw today, our increase in overall team speed will be an asset which will put us over the top in more than a few games.

 

So you admit that speed is not as important as OBP, but then you claim it's sickeninig that people don't think it's as important as OBP?

 

 

Goony, you're putting words in his mouth.

 

Where in his initial post (or any subsequent post) did he claim that it's sickening that people don't thinkit's important as OBP? He merely mentioned that Speed can and will play a huge part in the Cubs team this year - which is accurate.

 

uh...

 

Ok, I'm wrong. I'm gonna go crawl back into the whole from whence I came.

 

:oops:

 

Sorry Goony.

 

No you weren't because I never said it was sickening people don't think its as important as OBP. That part was inserted by Goony. You should have had more faith in your initial assertion. :P