Prior delayed again

[goonys evil twin]

Hopefully it's nothing wrong. After what Mark's gone through the last few years, i'd be reporting anything I felt or thought I felt if I were him.

 

I was assuming he wasn't going to make his first start, going off the way they treated him early. So, if this isn't that serious, it hopefully won't push him back much further from what I was expecting anyway, which would be mid-April.

[daske17]

Or maybe the Cubs did a poor job of introducing him slowly to a major league workload, and he would have been fine if he wasn't among the league leaders in pitches thrown so early in his careerm, and wasn't left out there for 120+ pitches so often.

 

Well, they didn't introduce him slowly in 2002, and shut him down in late August because he was complaining about shoulder soreness. It was 2003, with Dusty "Pitchers are my playthings" Baker where he was amped way the heck up.

 

So Prior's been complaining of soreness going on his fourth year now. All of this may not be the Cubs use of him. He may just be susceptible to soreness that needs to be accurately addressed.

 

Prior supposedly hurt his hamstrings in 2002 before being shut down. I never heard about him complaining of shoulder soreness that year. He was also in his first pro season, at 21, throwing 40 more innings than he had ever before.

 

Apologies. It was his hamstring.

[Jon]

But note the difference in the two situations: Kerry pitched live regular season games that mattered; Prior didn't even face one spring training opposing hitter. So for you to say that they both "pitched while injured" is deceiving.

 

This spring's handling of Prior does suggest that the Cubs held him back in attempts to see if he could make progress with his injury through pitching and treatments from trainer Mark O'Neal: "We've been treating him for basically normal symptoms that everybody has when they throw."

Wood continued to pitch in the hopes that he'd help the team get back into the wild card race. If they had Prior continue to throw and pitch for weeks with an injury, that certainly wouldn't help their post season chances. Let's not forget that if they had seen an injury back then, which was about six weeks or more before the season started, they would have had time to shut him down and let him get it treated.

 

It depends how you'd define "injury" in that case. Pitchers going through soreness in camp isn't that uncommon. It's also quite possible that the soreness was because of the different program. With all of the injuries to pitchers, I don't think they've lied. Have they been wrong and have there been setbacks that you can't really predict? Of course. Have they been incompetant with these injuries? Possibly. But that's not lying.

I would accept your reasoning for a different throwing program if Prior's program was just a scaled back version of what healthy pitchers do. But Prior was not allowed to even pitch one inning against live hitting, and only advanced to simulated games and took forever to get to that point.

 

Prior's lack of pitching wasn't to gradually build up his strength; it was because he was nursing an injury.

Well, I'm not a pitching coach, but they had been saying for a while that it was going to be a different program, not just scaled back. As I say below, he did throw against live hitting. Unless you mean pitch against live hitting in a spring training game, which by all indications, was just around the corner if his throwing session on Tuessday and his simulated game on Thursday went well.

Clearly, Prior was held back. He was doing less pitching than every other pitcher in camp.

Not every pitcher (especially Mr. quarantine himself Roberto Novoa), but that doesn't necessarily mean anything aside from the fact that he was behind, which I think we'd all agree on.

 

His simulated game on Sunday was only 35 pitches, down from 52 a week earlier. Why the decrease? If he was building strength shouldn't he be able to at least match what he did a week ago? Also, I'm skeptical about how rigorous these simulated games were. "Real" ST games are fake baseball too. It's normal for veteran pitchers to use ST games to build arm strength and stamina. If a pitcher is too weak to pitch in an ST game something is wrong.

Well, let's get this straight. On February 27, he threw 25 pitches off the mound with no hitters involved. On March 3, he threw 50 pitches off the mound with no hitters involved. On March 5, he threw 53 pitches in a bullpen session with no hitters involved. He threw 30 pitches to hitters on Thursday, March 9. On Sunday, March 12, he threw 35 pitches in a simulated game. According to reports, he struggled through the first inning and then looked pretty good in the second inning. He was going to throw a session yesterday and then throw his final simulated game on Thursday unless something didn't go as planned (like this soreness).

 

If you think that there's a difference between simulated games and ST games, I'm guessing you'd admit that there's a difference between throwing off the mound and throwing in a simulated game. I see this as going forward, not backwards.

[goonys evil twin]

Clearly, Prior was held back. He was doing less pitching than every other pitcher in camp.

Not every pitcher (especially Mr. quarantine himself Roberto Novoa), but that doesn't necessarily mean anything aside from the fact that he was behind, which I think we'd all agree on.

 

Can we stop pretending?

[Balsa]

Well let's hope this is like Wood's knee surgery that took less time to recover from than Aramis's infected finger.

[brinoch]

There's really no way to defend the Cubs on this. I think they've known that there was a problem with Prior, they thought he'd work through it, and they've been holding him back a bit because of it. Word leaked out, they denied it, and now they've likely been burned.

 

I'd like to defend them, but I really can't. They've been repeatedly dishonest and less than forthright about injuries in the past.

[Soul]

There's really no way to defend the Cubs on this. I think they've known that there was a problem with Prior, they thought he'd work through it, and they've been holding him back a bit because of it. Word leaked out, they denied it, and now they've likely been burned.

 

I'd like to defend them, but I really can't. They've been repeatedly dishonest and less than forthright about injuries in the past.

 

That's pretty much the reality of the situation. As a Cub fan, it's not a whole lot of fun to be on the other end of the lies. I don't think it's too much to expect honesty for the money we give to this franchise.

 

If they want to protect injured players' rights to privacy, I'm fine with that. Make a blanket policy statement: We will not discuss player health unless league rules dictate we must. Don't come out on the radio & in the newspapers with blatant lies: "He's fine" "There's no injury, he's just building strength" yada yada yada.

 

Just report the truth, or state it is not club policy to disclose. There's no excuse for lies, over & over. Other teams don't do this. Pretty much it's only the Cubs who have institutionalized lying about player health.

[badger1679666666]

When are we supposed to hear something about what happened today?

[treebird]

When are we supposed to hear something about what happened today?

 

i suspect we'll get some lies today, and the truth 3-4 weeks from now

[wade]

What was it Todd Walker said about management and honesty? :shock:

[Soul]

What was it Todd Walker said about management and honesty? :shock:

 

He's been trying to leak the truth to us for years, and the Cubs have been trying to unload him for fear that the TRUTH will be known!!

 

Todd Walker power to the people!! 8)

[Laura]

Cubs.com[/url]"]

O'Neal said he would not have an update regarding Cubs pitcher Mark Prior until Thursday. Prior felt discomfort in the back of his right shoulder before a bullpen session on Tuesday and was to be examined by Yocum on Wednesday in Los Angeles.

 

"I don't want to speculate on anything," O'Neal said. "That's why we have him seeing one of the best orthopedics in the country and let's see what he has to say."

 

Prior had "not missed a step" until Tuesday in his throwing program, which had been restructured this spring in an attempt to avoid any injury.

[wade]

What was it Todd Walker said about management and honesty? :shock:

 

He's been trying to leak the truth to us for years, and the Cubs have been trying to unload him for fear that the TRUTH will be known!!

 

Todd Walker power to the people!! 8)

 

He kinda reminds me of Fox Mulder.

[daske17]

He kinda reminds me of Fox Mulder.

 

Does that make Gail Fischer Scully?

[Buford T Justice]

Maybe Prior should get a new bed? I wake up all the time with really bad shoulder pains because the way I sleep.

[wade]

He kinda reminds me of Fox Mulder.

 

Does that make Gail Fischer Scully?

 

Is she in love with Todd Walker, but hiding it for the sake of their quest?

 

The more important question is whether or not Jim Hendry is "the cigarette-smoking man".

[UK1679666180]

Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique.

 

Towel drills don't build up strength, they're used for evaluating mechanics.

[sethuel1]

Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique.

 

Towel drills don't build up strength, they're used for evaluating mechanics.

 

Depends whose towel you use, and whether they used it earlier in the day or not.

[Jon]

Clearly, Prior was held back. He was doing less pitching than every other pitcher in camp.

Not every pitcher (especially Mr. quarantine himself Roberto Novoa), but that doesn't necessarily mean anything aside from the fact that he was behind, which I think we'd all agree on.

 

Can we stop pretending?

Pretending what? There's really nothing to go on and that this is some Cubs conspiracy or that Hendry somehow gets his kicks by lying to the media? There are so few actual sources and facts being discussed. Carroll's article is quoted often, yet a lot of people are ignoring the fact that his interpretation of the situation was based on something factually incorrect. In addition, he also had this to say:

According to our best sources in Mesa, Prior looks "weak and sick."

If those are his best sources in Mesa, why are people ignoring this part? I get the sense that some folks here aren't fully considering the effects of his illness in terms of his training and arm strengthening program in December and January.

 

There's a big jump to conclude that Hendry is just lying. Some people may be basing this off of the past, but there's no real reason to think Hendry was trying to lie then, either. There's a lot of reason to believe that they screwed it up and aren't doing the best job right now, but not that they're lying to sell tickets or who knows what else.

 

And we also don't even know what's wrong yet.

[goonys evil twin]

Pretending what? There's really nothing to go on and that this is some Cubs conspiracy or that Hendry somehow gets his kicks by lying to the media?

 

Pretending that the whole "we have no idea when he'll be ready to pitch, but it'll definitely be by opening day, probably, maybe" spring training ritual doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

It did mean something. It means Prior wasn't 100%. Not that he wasn't a little behind, or a little sick. It meant he wasn't 100%. That's clear.

[Bgbird68]

Just a heads up to all Cub fans who thought that there was nothing to worry about.....

 

Next spring, if a pitcher does not throw off a mound you can safely assume two things:

 

1. He's rehabbing

2. He's injured

 

This is not a conspiracy theory or a "sky is falling" attitude. It's called being realistic and logical.

[Illini Iceman]

There's really no way to defend the Cubs on this. I think they've known that there was a problem with Prior, they thought he'd work through it, and they've been holding him back a bit because of it. Word leaked out, they denied it, and now they've likely been burned.

 

I'd like to defend them, but I really can't. They've been repeatedly dishonest and less than forthright about injuries in the past.

 

That's pretty much the reality of the situation. As a Cub fan, it's not a whole lot of fun to be on the other end of the lies. I don't think it's too much to expect honesty for the money we give to this franchise.

 

If they want to protect injured players' rights to privacy, I'm fine with that. Make a blanket policy statement: We will not discuss player health unless league rules dictate we must. Don't come out on the radio & in the newspapers with blatant lies: "He's fine" "There's no injury, he's just building strength" yada yada yada.

 

Just report the truth, or state it is not club policy to disclose. There's no excuse for lies, over & over. Other teams don't do this. Pretty much it's only the Cubs who have institutionalized lying about player health.

 

Or, of course, there is the possibility that he really wasn't hurt and they were just using a gradual buildup program like Rotschild had been saying he would do this year since last ST.

But I guess since you have decided that them lying is the "reality of the situation" it is since you have so much proof that he was really injured.

I love conspiracy theories but this one makes no sense because no one involved in the so called conspiracy had anything to gain from a cover up.

[JC]

There's really no way to defend the Cubs on this. I think they've known that there was a problem with Prior, they thought he'd work through it, and they've been holding him back a bit because of it. Word leaked out, they denied it, and now they've likely been burned.

 

I'd like to defend them, but I really can't. They've been repeatedly dishonest and less than forthright about injuries in the past.

 

That's pretty much the reality of the situation. As a Cub fan, it's not a whole lot of fun to be on the other end of the lies. I don't think it's too much to expect honesty for the money we give to this franchise.

 

If they want to protect injured players' rights to privacy, I'm fine with that. Make a blanket policy statement: We will not discuss player health unless league rules dictate we must. Don't come out on the radio & in the newspapers with blatant lies: "He's fine" "There's no injury, he's just building strength" yada yada yada.

 

Just report the truth, or state it is not club policy to disclose. There's no excuse for lies, over & over. Other teams don't do this. Pretty much it's only the Cubs who have institutionalized lying about player health.

 

Or, of course, there is the possibility that he really wasn't hurt and they were just using a gradual buildup program like Rotschild had been saying he would do this year since last ST.

But I guess since you have decided that them lying is the "reality of the situation" it is since you have so much proof that he was really injured.

I love conspiracy theories but this one makes no sense because no one involved in the so called conspiracy had anything to gain from a cover up.

 

I'm not sure they have nothing to gain. Keeping injuries quiet prior to selling tickets is a good reason, even if Wrigley is usually a good bet to sell out. Keeping additional heat off of a management which has been racked with questions regarding its forthrightness and early identification of injuries is certainly another advantage.

 

The Chicago Cub management over the last 3 years or so has been inept with every aspect of injuries to its players. Keeping that discussion out of the papers is beneficial to everyone involved. For anyone to even suggest that the Cubs have been competent in the area of injuries is ridiculous.

[srbin84]

I can blame the Cubs for lying about Prior's injuries but not for them happening in the first place. Prior has had some freak injuries, but the achilles (2004), elbow (2004) and shoulder (2006) would have happened whether he was on the Cubs or not. Prior doesn't even pitch enough to be overused, and I am not going to blame everything that has happened over the last 3+ seasons on Dusty's pitcher abuse in 2003. The Cubs had a lot of good, young talented pitchers and kept the wrong ones. Many people predict Willis' arm to fall off every season and he rarely if ever misses a start and just keeps getting better. Almost everybody predicted Prior would have a great career and rarely if ever go on the DL because of his flawless mechanics, but he just keeps missing more and more time as his career progresses and the quality of pitching has declined as well.

[Illini Iceman]

There's really no way to defend the Cubs on this. I think they've known that there was a problem with Prior, they thought he'd work through it, and they've been holding him back a bit because of it. Word leaked out, they denied it, and now they've likely been burned.

 

I'd like to defend them, but I really can't. They've been repeatedly dishonest and less than forthright about injuries in the past.

 

That's pretty much the reality of the situation. As a Cub fan, it's not a whole lot of fun to be on the other end of the lies. I don't think it's too much to expect honesty for the money we give to this franchise.

 

If they want to protect injured players' rights to privacy, I'm fine with that. Make a blanket policy statement: We will not discuss player health unless league rules dictate we must. Don't come out on the radio & in the newspapers with blatant lies: "He's fine" "There's no injury, he's just building strength" yada yada yada.

 

Just report the truth, or state it is not club policy to disclose. There's no excuse for lies, over & over. Other teams don't do this. Pretty much it's only the Cubs who have institutionalized lying about player health.

 

Or, of course, there is the possibility that he really wasn't hurt and they were just using a gradual buildup program like Rotschild had been saying he would do this year since last ST.

But I guess since you have decided that them lying is the "reality of the situation" it is since you have so much proof that he was really injured.

I love conspiracy theories but this one makes no sense because no one involved in the so called conspiracy had anything to gain from a cover up.

 

I'm not sure they have nothing to gain. Keeping injuries quiet prior to selling tickets is a good reason, even if Wrigley is usually a good bet to sell out. Keeping additional heat off of a management which has been racked with questions regarding its forthrightness and early identification of injuries is certainly another advantage.

 

The Chicago Cub management over the last 3 years or so has been inept with every aspect of injuries to its players. Keeping that discussion out of the papers is beneficial to everyone involved. For anyone to even suggest that the Cubs have been competent in the area of injuries is ridiculous.

 

I don't understand the argument. In order to avoid the "heat" regarding early identification of injuries and to keep that discussion out of the papers you are accusing them of supposedly conspiring in holding back on reporting the early identification of an injury and in the process generating an enormous amount of discussion about that in the papers? How do they gain from that?