Sutter HOF 2006

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Sutter has stated he wants to go in the hall as a Cardinal, which sucks. But given how close his Cubs vs. Cardinals games are, I'm betting the hall gives him his wish. Sutter was yet another Cub star who was shafted by the skinflint PK Wrigley, and left town with a chip on his shoulder. In arbitration, the Cubs offered him $350K, the arbiter awarded him $700K; no surprise, since Sutter had just won the freaking Cy Young Award. Mr. Wrigley had Sutter shipped out of town almost immediately thereafter. We got the coke head Leon Durham in exchange, along with the incredibly bad Ken Reitz.

 

Sutter rocked.

[YearofDaCubs]

Sutter has stated he wants to go in the hall as a Cardinal, which sucks. But given how close his Cubs vs. Cardinals games are, I'm betting the hall gives him his wish. Sutter was yet another Cub star who was shafted by the skinflint PK Wrigley, and left town with a chip on his shoulder. In arbitration, the Cubs offered him $350K, the arbiter awarded him $700K; no surprise, since Sutter had just won the freaking Cy Young Award. Mr. Wrigley had Sutter shipped out of town almost immediately thereafter. We got the coke head Leon Durham in exchange, along with the incredibly bad Ken Reitz.

 

Sutter rocked.

It just shows you how bad and for how long this organization has been and still is.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I recall they can "split" the cap. Is that true?

 

Who decides what team logo will be used on induction plaques?

 

The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history museum and as such, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. Visit our Hall of Fame plaque section to see the plaques of your favorite Hall of Fame members.

 

From the baseball HOF webpage.

 

And since Sutter is pretty much set the standard for the modern closer, Sutter most "indelible" mark came as a member of the Cubs. No disrespect to the Cards, after reading...Sutter has to go in as Cubs.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I recall they can "split" the cap. Is that true?

 

Who decides what team logo will be used on induction plaques?

 

The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history museum and as such, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. Visit our Hall of Fame plaque section to see the plaques of your favorite Hall of Fame members.

 

From the baseball HOF webpage.

 

And since Sutter is pretty much set the standard for the modern closer, Sutter most "indelible" mark came as a member of the Cubs. No disrespect to the Cards, after reading...Sutter has to go in as Cubs.

 

Thanks! It'll be interesting if they "consider his wishes" enough to make him a Cardinal. Wishes aside he should be a Cub in a close call...

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Sutter has stated he wants to go in the hall as a Cardinal, which sucks. But given how close his Cubs vs. Cardinals games are, I'm betting the hall gives him his wish. Sutter was yet another Cub star who was shafted by the skinflint PK Wrigley, and left town with a chip on his shoulder. In arbitration, the Cubs offered him $350K, the arbiter awarded him $700K; no surprise, since Sutter had just won the freaking Cy Young Award. Mr. Wrigley had Sutter shipped out of town almost immediately thereafter. We got the coke head Leon Durham in exchange, along with the incredibly bad Ken Reitz.

 

Sutter rocked.

 

Doesn't seem like that bad a deal to me. Durham was very productive. Since Sutter's career ended the same year Durham went back to the Cardinals to end his career, it makes for an interesting comparison.

 

Sutter, '81-'88

 

PRAA: 54

PRAR: 229

 

Durham, '81-'88

 

BRAA: 122

FRAA: -15

Net RAA: 107

 

BRAR: 243

FRAR: 75

Net RAR: 318

[jjgman21]

Hey guys, first time poster here. Congrats to Bruce Sutter.

 

I really hate that Andre Dawson didn't make the cut. Even worse, Jim Rice got more votes than him. Do any of you think that Rice has a better chance than Dawson? Does anyone think Rice was a better player?

 

Rice was a better hitter than Dawson. Dawson was better on defense. I can't see how anyone would vote for Dawson, yet pass on Rice.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Rice the better offensive player.

 

Rice's career OPS was 128, Andre's 119. if Andre hadn't hung on four years too long, he'd be right there with Rice. Rice benefitted greatly from playing at Fenway, whereas most of Hawk's career was spent in Montreal. Rice also spent his years in very good to incredible lineups. the Hawk played with Raines, Carter, Sandberg...and that's about it. finally, not the most beloved metric around here, but Dawson also stole 300+ bases.

[Mark Priors Calves]

We got the coke head Leon Durham in exchange.

 

Is this common knowledge? I've never heard this before.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Dawson saw his total rise to 61%. I still think it's a long shot that he'll ever get in, but he is gaining in his support each year.

 

I wanna say everyone who's ever gotten that much % of the vote has made it in eventually. Dawson's got a lot of years left on the ballot, I think he makes it.

[erik316wttn]

I think it's a shame that Albert Belle only got 7% of the vote. He may not be a HOFer, but he's more of a HOFer than many people ahead of him on that list.

 

Dawson saw his total rise to 61%. I still think it's a long shot that he'll ever get in, but he is gaining in his support each year. He has hope. I'm starting to think Blyleven and Rice may never garner the support needed for election.

 

Congrats to Sutter, but I still think Goose was the better pitcher.

 

Andre won't get in next year, as it'll be all about Gwynn, McGwire, and Ripken. But maybe the year after or 2008.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hey guys, first time poster here. Congrats to Bruce Sutter.

 

I really hate that Andre Dawson didn't make the cut. Even worse, Jim Rice got more votes than him. Do any of you think that Rice has a better chance than Dawson? Does anyone think Rice was a better player?

 

Rice was a better hitter than Dawson. Dawson was better on defense. I can't see how anyone would vote for Dawson, yet pass on Rice.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Rice the better offensive player.

 

Rice's career OPS was 128, Andre's 119. if Andre hadn't hung on four years too long, he'd be right there with Rice. Rice benefitted greatly from playing at Fenway, whereas most of Hawk's career was spent in Montreal. Rice also spent his years in very good to incredible lineups. the Hawk played with Raines, Carter, Sandberg...and that's about it. finally, not the most beloved metric around here, but Dawson also stole 300+ bases.

 

Rice also has 30 points in OBP on Dawson, which combined with his better overall OPS means that he's the better offensive player.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Question: When will we know what team Sutter will go into the Hall with?

[NCCubFan]

We got the coke head Leon Durham in exchange.

 

Is this common knowledge? I've never heard this before.

I don't recall the details, but he did have drug problems near the end of his career.

 

EDIT: Here's an article exerpt from The Cub Reporter which mentions Durham's drug problems:

Leon Durham is almost universally regarded as a classy guy whose baseball career was cut short by two drug suspensions, the second being career-ending. In happier memories, in 1982 he became the first 20HR 20SB Cub since 1911 (Frank Schulte) and was noted for contribuing $750 (still a considerable sum, at the time) to area High Schools for each Wrigley Field home run he hit. He's now a batting coach for the Toledo Mudhens, and when I took a look yesterday at this picture, taken a few months ago, it took my breath away. I don't think I'd ever seen a picture of him more recent than about 1988, when he still sported those trademark glasses of his. It's good to see that he's doing well.

[Coach C]

Hey guys, first time poster here. Congrats to Bruce Sutter.

 

I really hate that Andre Dawson didn't make the cut. Even worse, Jim Rice got more votes than him. Do any of you think that Rice has a better chance than Dawson? Does anyone think Rice was a better player?

 

i think that they're similar players. rice was better offensively, dawson better defensively. i think rice is more deserving.

 

I respectfully disagree. I think Andre Dawson is more deserving.

Dawson was a Gold Glove outfielder and his offensive numbers are, in some cases, better than Rice. Dawson batted .279 with 438 homers and 1,591 RBI and he added an element of speed with 314 stolen bases.

 

Edit: Dang, some people beat me to it. :D

[sweetpeteman]

Strikeouts

1. Nolan Ryan+ 5714 R

2. Roger Clemens (42) 4502 R

3. Randy Johnson* (41) 4372 L

4. Steve Carlton+* 4136 L

5. Bert Blyleven 3701 R

6. Tom Seaver+ 3640 R

7. Don Sutton+ 3574 R

8. Gaylord Perry+ 3534 R

9. Walter Johnson+ 3509 R

10. Phil Niekro+ 3342 R

 

Outside of Clemens and Johnson, everyone on that list is in the Hall except Blyleven. I still don't see why he isn't voted in.

[Blueheart05]

It's not hard for me to argue he should be a Cub. He had his best years with the Cubs and played more seasons for the Cubs.

 

The same argument goes for Maddux only in the opposite direction. He played more seasons for the Cubs but had his best seasons with the Braves, he should go in as a Brave.

 

If Sutter goes in as a Cardinal it would be a travishamokery. :x

 

OT: Maddux has pitched more seasons for the Braves (11). 2006 will be his 10th season as a Cub.

[Illini Iceman]

lame...hall of very good

 

If you think Sutter was just "very good" you must not have watched him in the '70's when he was dominating with the Cubs. He overmatched hitters so much that it wasn't a question of whether they would get a hit as much as whether they would even be able to make contact.

When Sutter took the mound people stopped what they were doing to watch.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

When Sutter took the mound people stopped what they were doing to watch.

 

That didn't happen all that often though. 1042 IP, and 240 of those were seasons where he was below league average in ERA.

[The Voice of Reason]

Congrats Bruce Sutter - The man responsible for one of the most clever signs in Wrigley Field history.

 

 

 

Only the Lord Saves more than Sutter.

[Chief_Cardinal]

Who decides what team logo will be used on induction plaques?

 

The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history museum and as such, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. Visit our Hall of Fame plaque section to see the plaques of your favorite Hall of Fame members.

 

From the baseball HOF webpage.

 

And since Sutter is pretty much set the standard for the modern closer, Sutter most "indelible" mark came as a member of the Cubs. No disrespect to the Cards, after reading...Sutter has to go in as Cubs.

 

Hate to disagree, but saving a 7th game of a World Series game is by far his most "indelible" moment. When ever a Bruce Sutter highlight is shown, that is usually the one chosen. And I am sure he himself would rank that over winning a Cy Young award as well.

 

I'm very happy to finally see him get in, no matter what team he goes in as. You can't go wrong with either team....sure it gives more to have fun with your fellow cubs/cards friends. But it really doesn't matter which team he goes in as...he played a major role in both clubs when he was with them. There isn't really a wrong choice here....as long as its not the Braves.

 

Someone mentioned that he has said he wanted to go in as a Cardinal. From what I understand, he said on radio today that he hadn't decided on a preference and that the HOF had asked him about his preference and that he would get back to them about it (from the accounts I have read). It sounds like the Hall thought that it was pretty even between the 2 teams and that they would honor his preference.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Who decides what team logo will be used on induction plaques?

 

The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history museum and as such, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. Visit our Hall of Fame plaque section to see the plaques of your favorite Hall of Fame members.

 

From the baseball HOF webpage.

 

And since Sutter is pretty much set the standard for the modern closer, Sutter most "indelible" mark came as a member of the Cubs. No disrespect to the Cards, after reading...Sutter has to go in as Cubs.

 

Hate to disagree, but saving a 7th game of a World Series game is by far his most "indelible" moment. When ever a Bruce Sutter highlight is shown, that is usually the one chosen. And I am sure he himself would rank that over winning a Cy Young award as well.

 

I'm very happy to finally see him get in, no matter what team he goes in as. You can't go wrong with either team....sure it gives more to have fun with your fellow cubs/cards friends. But it really doesn't matter which team he goes in as...he played a major role in both clubs when he was with them. There isn't really a wrong choice here....as long as its not the Braves.

 

Someone mentioned that he has said he wanted to go in as a Cardinal. From what I understand, he said on radio today that he hadn't decided on a preference and that the HOF had asked him about his preference and that he would get back to them about it (from the accounts I have read). It sounds like the Hall thought that it was pretty even between the 2 teams and that they would honor his preference.

 

No, that was a product of him as a GREAT closer. Sutter's "indelible" mark on Cardinals HISTORY is the World Series, but seeing as Sutter's name is MENTIONED as one of the few GREAT ORIGINAL CLOSERS, who developed the "split-finger pitch" with the Cubs, I would say his "indelible" mark on baseball happen when he was with the Cubs. He became a GREAT closer with the Cubs, won a Cy Young with the Cubs, developed a "NEW" pitch in the split-finger with the Cubs, the Cards simply rode Sutter to a World Series. Sutter left his "indelible" mark on baseball with the Cubs, plain and simple. Thus, imo, should go in as a Cub, not a Card. But if he went in as a Cards, there wouldn't be a debate.

 

Again, I believe Sutter will go in as a Cub.

 

With that said....now that Sutter is in....how long till the ex-Cubs Lee Smith have to wait before he gets in? (and no there won't be a debate, he'll get in as a Cub). I think Smith "COULD" take McGwire's spot in the trinity next yr. I think people are going to hold off on McGwire, until they can separate drugs numbers to clean numbers of McGwire.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

None of the holdovers will get in next year. If the voters withold a vote on McGwire, then we'll see only Ripken and Gwynn inducted. I might have to book another trip to Cooperstown in 2007, because of players that aren't Cubs, those are two of my favorites.

[Warpticon]

lame...hall of very good

 

You're right, "hall of very good" is lame. I don't know why people use that expression. It's not like it parallels with "fame" at all. "very good" is not a lesser version of "fame."

[jjgman21]

Hey guys, first time poster here. Congrats to Bruce Sutter.

 

I really hate that Andre Dawson didn't make the cut. Even worse, Jim Rice got more votes than him. Do any of you think that Rice has a better chance than Dawson? Does anyone think Rice was a better player?

 

Rice was a better hitter than Dawson. Dawson was better on defense. I can't see how anyone would vote for Dawson, yet pass on Rice.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Rice the better offensive player.

 

Rice's career OPS was 128, Andre's 119. if Andre hadn't hung on four years too long, he'd be right there with Rice. Rice benefitted greatly from playing at Fenway, whereas most of Hawk's career was spent in Montreal. Rice also spent his years in very good to incredible lineups. the Hawk played with Raines, Carter, Sandberg...and that's about it. finally, not the most beloved metric around here, but Dawson also stole 300+ bases.

 

Rice also has 30 points in OBP on Dawson, which combined with his better overall OPS means that he's the better offensive player.

 

first, let me correct what I wrote above. the 128/119 comparison was OPS+, not just OPS. so again, account for the four years Dawson hung on too long, and they are probably about dead nuts even through 16 years in OPS+.

 

and I forget that OBP is the end all / be all of offensive stats. Andre didn't take walks. this is true. but up until the age of 36 he was equal to or better in just about every other team independant offensive catagory.

[VicCub]

Congrats to Bruce Sutter! He was the best in the biz and deserves the HOF.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hey guys, first time poster here. Congrats to Bruce Sutter.

 

I really hate that Andre Dawson didn't make the cut. Even worse, Jim Rice got more votes than him. Do any of you think that Rice has a better chance than Dawson? Does anyone think Rice was a better player?

 

Rice was a better hitter than Dawson. Dawson was better on defense. I can't see how anyone would vote for Dawson, yet pass on Rice.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Rice the better offensive player.

 

Rice's career OPS was 128, Andre's 119. if Andre hadn't hung on four years too long, he'd be right there with Rice. Rice benefitted greatly from playing at Fenway, whereas most of Hawk's career was spent in Montreal. Rice also spent his years in very good to incredible lineups. the Hawk played with Raines, Carter, Sandberg...and that's about it. finally, not the most beloved metric around here, but Dawson also stole 300+ bases.

 

Rice also has 30 points in OBP on Dawson, which combined with his better overall OPS means that he's the better offensive player.

 

first, let me correct what I wrote above. the 128/119 comparison was OPS+, not just OPS. so again, account for the four years Dawson hung on too long, and they are probably about dead nuts even through 16 years in OPS+.

 

and I forget that OBP is the end all / be all of offensive stats. Andre didn't take walks. this is true. but up until the age of 36 he was equal to or better in just about every other team independant offensive catagory.

 

I knew you were talking about OPS+, and the point is that OBP is more valuable than SLG in OPS(and therefore OPS+), which makes his advantage in that category larger. It's not just walks in OBP though, Rice also hit for 24 more points of AVG in his career, and had a similar declining period as Dawson. 1230 PA's of 95 OPS+ performance for Rice, 1111 PA's of 88 OPS+ for Dawson.