Soriano

[goonys evil twin]

The Cubs had a higher OBP than the White Sox and Astros last year. It is not the only number that matters.

 

It's not the only one that matters, but it is the biggest problem on the team. This isn't about trying to match last year's winners, it's about trying to be the best they can be, and right now the Cubs are severely trailing in that race.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

It's not the only one that matters, but it is the biggest problem on the team. This isn't about trying to match last year's winners, it's about trying to be the best they can be, and right now the Cubs are severely trailing in that race.

 

Exactly. Last year we hit .277 and slugged .444 as a team, which would make you think we'd come very close to scoring alot of runs right?

 

No. The .324 OBP we put up was lower than the league average (.330 or so), and severly hurt us when it came to scoring runs.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

It's not the only one that matters, but it is the biggest problem on the team. This isn't about trying to match last year's winners, it's about trying to be the best they can be, and right now the Cubs are severely trailing in that race.

 

Exactly. Last year we hit .277 and slugged .444 as a team, which would make you think we'd come very close to scoring alot of runs right?

 

No. The .324 OBP we put up was lower than the league average (.330 or so), and severly hurt us when it came to scoring runs.

 

The Cubs had a higher OBP than the White Sox and Astros last year. It is not the only number that matters.

 

BTW, those offenses aren't powerhouses. They are percieved as so I guess, but they both suuuuck offensively.

[BigbadB]

The Cubs had a higher OBP than the White Sox and Astros last year. It is not the only number that matters.

 

No one is saying that the Cubs shouldn't have addressed the pitching staff this offseason as well. That's the major difference between Houston, the White Sox and the Cubs in 2005. Our pitching was mediocre. They had stellar pitching. If we are going to throw out a mediocre to poor OBP team offensively again next year, the Cubs need to figure out how to send a stellar pitching staff out there next year if the want to compensate for the lack of offense. What the Cubs should have been doing this offseason was improving OBP as a team offensively, and bulking up the pitching. Fine, improve the defense too if you wish, but it's the least important of the 3.

 

Houston did have a worse OBP than the Cubs, but they also scored less runs. The White Sox did have a worse OBP than the Cubs, but they made the best use of the little OBP they had by putting good OBP front of their most productive hitters. Therefore, the +30 run differential.

 

In other words, if the White Sox would have ran Juan Uribe (.301 OBP) and Joe Crede (.303 OBP) out there in front of Konerko all season, their runs scored would have dropped significantly.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Don't 6 of the 8 positions have good obp? Give me more ops.

 

Not necessarily. Depends heavily on a bounceback from Pierre, who is playing 2B, how often Neifi plays, whether Murton can get the job done and/or what veteran Dusty replaces him with. There's a good chance they'll get solid OBP from 1B and 3B. They should have above average OBP from CF. Barrett's game is more about his AVG and SLG than OBP, but he could be above average for C (though you have to remember Blanco will get lots of time and significantly bring down the overall OBP from that position).

 

You can't just say the OBP is good from 6 of 8 so let's ignore it. The Cubs have a clear OBP problem, and it's directly tied to lack of walks. That problem hasn't gone away. The goal should not be about being average, or even above average in this department anyway, it should be about being great. But the Cubs were awful and are probably still below average.

 

The Cubs had a higher OBP than the White Sox and Astros last year. It is not the only number that matters.

 

.324 vs. .322 for both of them.

[CubfaninCA]

Soriano SUCKS.

 

Let the Nats keep him...we don't need another high K/low BB hitter. And considering how much he was saved by Arlington...theres not even a point.

 

He is going to dissapoint big time not being in a great hitters park (Texas) or not seeing a fastball first pitch every time he got up there (Yankees).

 

I can't wait to see it...never could stand the hype around him.

 

Texas is the only hitter's park in that division. The NL Central is one of the best hitter's divisions in baseball. I don't think you'd see much of a drop in his production if he came to the Cubs.

 

But, guys like Jacque Jones, Alfonso Soriano are guys that I have never felt were a good fit for the Cubs. The emphasis should be on adding players with a history of good OBP. Why management doesn't see this is beyond me.

 

Don't 6 of the 8 positions have good obp? Give me more ops.

 

No. Murton is unproven and could go either way in LF. Pierre is coming off a .330 OBP season. Jones can't get on base at all. Cedeno is unproven at SS. Walker won't be here, so that leaves Perez who can't get on base to save his life. Barrett is a career .320 OBP guy, and his .345 last year was good, but not great. Ramirez is pretty average driven in his OBP. Only Lee has a proven BB/PA.

 

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

[BigbadB]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

[CUBZ99]

Don't 6 of the 8 positions have good obp? Give me more ops.

 

Not necessarily. Depends heavily on a bounceback from Pierre, who is playing 2B, how often Neifi plays, whether Murton can get the job done and/or what veteran Dusty replaces him with. There's a good chance they'll get solid OBP from 1B and 3B. They should have above average OBP from CF. Barrett's game is more about his AVG and SLG than OBP, but he could be above average for C (though you have to remember Blanco will get lots of time and significantly bring down the overall OBP from that position).

 

You can't just say the OBP is good from 6 of 8 so let's ignore it. The Cubs have a clear OBP problem, and it's directly tied to lack of walks. That problem hasn't gone away. The goal should not be about being average, or even above average in this department anyway, it should be about being great. But the Cubs were awful and are probably still below average.

 

The Cubs had a higher OBP than the White Sox and Astros last year. It is not the only number that matters.

 

.324 vs. .322 for both of them.

 

Cubs OBP is not the biggest problem, as you point out it was higher although very close to the two World Series teams. However, the Sox and Astros both had top 4 pitching staffs in terms of ERA. Without better pitching, the Cubs are going to finish around .500 again. That is why I can't believe they are even considering trading Prior.

[USSoccer]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

Then all Hendry did when he signed Jones was guarantee that Murton gets buried on the bench. What a stupid move that was.

[CubfaninCA]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

You must really be down on Murton to make that assessment. That outfield won't be great, but can be solid. It's just not a conventional outfield w/ at least one power hitter tho. However, few teams have a 1b and 3b as good as the Cubs.

[CP_414]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

Better than last year's outfield, but not good enough.

[Sarcastic]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

And yet it could still quite possibly outproduce the numbers from 2005. Patterson was so bad last year, Pierre would have to have a second extreme down year in a row to be as bad. Jones probably won't be any better than Burnitz, but there is a good chance Murton can outproduce the filth that came from LF last year.

 

Plus, the OF bench would probably be better.

[oldcubsfan]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

And yet it could still quite possibly outproduce the numbers from 2005. Patterson was so bad last year, Pierre would have to have a second extreme down year in a row to be as bad. Jones probably won't be any better than Burnitz, but there is a good chance Murton can outproduce the filth that came from LF last year.

 

Plus, the OF bench would probably be better.

You can't mean LF will out produce Todd and the "creature", god anything should be able to out produce that fiasco.

[USSoccer]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

You must really be down on Murton to make that assessment. That outfield won't be great, but can be solid. It's just not a conventional outfield w/ at least one power hitter tho. However, few teams have a 1b and 3b as good as the Cubs.

 

I do agree with you. The power we get at 1B and 3B helps make up for the lack of your more traditional power corner OF. The key to the whole thing is where Murton hits, and how well he does.

[XZero771679666304]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

You must really be down on Murton to make that assessment. That outfield won't be great, but can be solid. It's just not a conventional outfield w/ at least one power hitter tho. However, few teams have a 1b and 3b as good as the Cubs.

 

I do agree with you. The power we get at 1B and 3B helps make up for the lack of your more traditional power corner OF. The key to the whole thing is where Murton hits, and how well he does.

 

I think he'll do all right, but Dusty's not bright enough to bat him in the 2 hole. This is the way I think things will pan out:

 

1.Pierre .290/.350/.710

2.Cedeno .280/.330/.750

3.Lee .300/.390/.950

4.Jones .270/.320/.790

5.ARam .300/.350/.920

6.Murton .280/.360/.790

7.Barrett .275/.340/.775

8.Perez .250/.280/.650 :evil:

 

All in all, considerably better than what we had last year. Hopefully Jim decides to keep Walker, or at least acquires a decent 2B so we can take Neifi out of the equation.

[CubfaninCA]

At this point, I take Soriano & his 40 home run potential to bat behind the big run producers, Lee & ARam. Jock Jones is a pretty shaky 5 hitter. Go w/ Cedeno or Murton in the 2 hole.

 

I agree. Especially if we don't have to break up the rotation. He's not the impact bat we want, but I think he can make an impact.

 

The 1 & 2 hitters not getting on was a big problem, but Lee & ARam getting stranded by Burnitz was a big problem too.

 

 

So you want Soriano's .309(including ridiculous Ameriquest splits) OBP to rectify that? He'd be worse in that sense.

 

I'm more concerned w/ slugging in the 5 spot and driving in the guys who had obps of .418 and .358 last year. I'll take career .500 slugging over .435 any day of the week.

[CubfaninCA]

Well, if we're taking the glass half empty approach, Hendry better upgrade in LF. LF may have the biggest supply of hitters out there. Swing a deal for Floyd or Gonzo. Platoon Murton w/ Jock.

 

I would imagine you would agree that we can't go into the 2005 season with this for an outfield: (assuming Patterson will be traded)

 

Jacque Jones

Juan Pierre

Matt Murton

Jerry Hairston

John Mabry

 

That might be one of the worst outfields ever assembled.

 

You must really be down on Murton to make that assessment. That outfield won't be great, but can be solid. It's just not a conventional outfield w/ at least one power hitter tho. However, few teams have a 1b and 3b as good as the Cubs.

 

I do agree with you. The power we get at 1B and 3B helps make up for the lack of your more traditional power corner OF. The key to the whole thing is where Murton hits, and how well he does.

 

Agree about Murton, and Barrett's one of the best hitting catcher's in the NL. This offense won't be spectacular, but can be solid. The pitching is the key, and lots of money has been spent on it.

[XZero771679666304]

At this point, I take Soriano & his 40 home run potential to bat behind the big run producers, Lee & ARam. Jock Jones is a pretty shaky 5 hitter. Go w/ Cedeno or Murton in the 2 hole.

 

I agree. Especially if we don't have to break up the rotation. He's not the impact bat we want, but I think he can make an impact.

 

The 1 & 2 hitters not getting on was a big problem, but Lee & ARam getting stranded by Burnitz was a big problem too.

 

 

So you want Soriano's .309(including ridiculous Ameriquest splits) OBP to rectify that? He'd be worse in that sense.

 

I'm more concerned w/ slugging in the 5 spot and driving in the guys who had obps of .418 and .358 last year. I'll take career .500 slugging over .435 any day of the week.

 

I'd take Soriano only if it meant Neifi went to being strictly a bench player. If adding him means pushing Cedeno out, I don't see how it makes our offense any better.

[BigbadB]

You must really be down on Murton to make that assessment. That outfield won't be great, but can be solid. It's just not a conventional outfield w/ at least one power hitter tho. However, few teams have a 1b and 3b as good as the Cubs.

 

I'm not down on Murton at all. But, all it takes is 1 injury (nah, Cubs never have any of those) and now Hairston or Mabry is playing everyday. Who do they have after Hairston and Mabry? Pie is the only option remaining. Unless Nic Jackson somehow reclaims himself as a prospect, there is just nothing left on the farm.

 

Murton was in AA just last year. We really don't know what we have in Matt Murton. The small sampling he gave in the bigs last year is just that.

 

For every prospect that came up and did what Murton did last year, I can find a whole host of other players that did the same thing Murton did, and never amounted to a thing in the big leagues. I hope he's everything we all hope he'll be. But, if he isn't, I'm not willing to see Jerry Hairston or John Mabry gobbling up all the playing time in LF if he fails.

 

Thank Dusty for doing everything he could to slow the development of Murton and Cedeno last year. Because he did that, we have less information to come to any real conclusions of what kind of player Murton or Cedeno might become.

[goonys evil twin]

That outfield won't be great, but can be solid.

 

No, it's can't be solid, unless you define solid as able to take the field most days. That OF is brutal, possibly bottom 5 in the league, maybe worse. It's definitely going to be below average. And that's not solid. It doesn't matter if 1B and 3B are powerful, they aren't good enough to offset crappy OF production.

[CuseCubFan69]

Thank Dusty for doing everything he could to slow the development of Murton and Cedeno last year. Because he did that, we have less information to come to any real conclusions of what kind of player Murton or Cedeno might become.

 

Baker has hurt this team in so many ways it makes me sick to even think about it anymore.

[fromthestretch]

I think he'll do all right, but Dusty's not bright enough to bat him in the 2 hole. This is the way I think things will pan out:

 

1.Pierre .290/.350/.710

2.Cedeno .280/.330/.750

3.Lee .300/.390/.950

4.Jones .270/.320/.790

5.ARam .300/.350/.920

6.Murton .280/.360/.790

7.Barrett .275/.340/.775

8.Perez .250/.280/.650 :evil:

 

All in all, considerably better than what we had last year. Hopefully Jim decides to keep Walker, or at least acquires a decent 2B so we can take Neifi out of the equation.

 

I'd be a lot happier with that lineup if Walker had a spot in it. Hell, I'd be happier with Hairston at 2B over Neifi.

[Soul]

I think he'll do all right, but Dusty's not bright enough to bat him in the 2 hole. This is the way I think things will pan out:

 

1.Pierre .290/.350/.710

2.Cedeno .280/.330/.750

3.Lee .300/.390/.950

4.Jones .270/.320/.790

5.ARam .300/.350/.920

6.Murton .280/.360/.790

7.Barrett .275/.340/.775

8.Perez .250/.280/.650 :evil:

 

All in all, considerably better than what we had last year. Hopefully Jim decides to keep Walker, or at least acquires a decent 2B so we can take Neifi out of the equation.

 

I'd be a lot happier with that lineup if Walker had a spot in it. Hell, I'd be happier with Hairston at 2B over Neifi.

 

Those numbers would be a best-case scenario as far as I'm concerned. I still don't understand why Walker must be traded so we can start Neifi. What in the world is going on with that situation? Why must Walker go? Just because?

 

And we wonder why this ballclub is a ship without a sail?

[CubfaninCA]

That outfield won't be great, but can be solid.

 

No, it's can't be solid, unless you define solid as able to take the field most days. That OF is brutal, possibly bottom 5 in the league, maybe worse. It's definitely going to be below average. And that's not solid. It doesn't matter if 1B and 3B are powerful, they aren't good enough to offset crappy OF production.

 

So Pierre & Murton will suck.