NSBB HOF Ballot- Andre Dawson

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Next up, former Cub- Andre Dawson.

 

From http://www.baseballhalloffame.org,

 

5th year on the ballot… Played 21 seasons…Named NL Rookie of the Year by the BBWAA and The Sporting News in 1977… Won the NL MVP Award in 1987…Finished in top 10 NL MVP voting in 1980 (7th), ‘81 (2nd), and ‘83 (2nd)… Won eight Gold Glove awards (1980-‘85, ‘87-‘88)…Twice named NL Player of the Year by The Sporting News (1981, ’87)…Eight All-Star teams (1981-’83, ’87-‘91), batted .238 in 21 ASG at-bats…Five seasons with .300-plus batting average…100-plus RBI four times, 20-plus HR thirteen times, 30-plus HR three times, 40-plus HR once, 30-plus doubles five times, 40-plus doubles once… Hit seven career grand slams… Ranks 31st in all-time in games played, 24th in at-bats, 44th in hits, 24th in total bases, 41st in doubles, 32nd in HR, 24th in RBI, 21st in extra-base hits, and 9th in sacrifice flies… Hit three HR in a game twice (Sept. 24, 1985 and Aug. 1, 1987)… Tied for NL lead in game-winning RBI (16) in 1987… Hit for the cycle on Apr. 29, 1987 … Tied for NL lead in hits (189) in 1983 and led NL in HR (49) and RBI (137) in 1987… Holds ML record for most intentional BB in single game (5) on May 22, 1990 (16 innings)… Tied ML record for most total bases (8) and HR (2) in one inning twice on July 30, 1978 and Sept. 24, 1985 … Led NL in total bases (341) in 1983 and (353) in 1987… Led NL in sacrifice flies (18) in 1983… Tied for NL lead in intentional BB (21) in 1990… Led NL outfielders in total chances for three seasons, consecutively (1981-‘83)… One NL Division Series (1981); batted .300 in 20 NLDS at-bats… Two NL Championship Series (1981, ‘89); batted .128 with three RBI in 39 NLCS at-bats.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

You can call it homerism if you like, but I say heck yes.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

No way.

 

.279/.327/.455

 

.279/.323/.482

 

Which one is Andre Dawson's career line, and which one is Jacque Jones's?

 

EDIT: His career OPS+ is on par with the likes of Reggie Sanders and Jay Buhner.

Edited December 24, 2005 by Transmogrified Tiger

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I like Dawson...but what I can't understand is why he's getting more support than Jim Rice. I do think some are showing some bias. If Dawson belongs, then Rice does as well.

[ConstableRabbit]

Dawson and Rice, yes

[TruffleShuffle]

Rice has slightly better career numbers, but Dawson played 500 more games. I say if Dawson had played his # of games but put up Rice-like numbers, he'd be in, and if Rice had played 3-4 more seasons, he'd be in. As it is, I would not vote either one into the HOF, and I was a big Hawk fan growing up. He was a very good player, but not a HOFer.

[UK1679666180]

No... Numbers aren't there, playing in Montreal eliminated any chance for that great athlete.

[SouthSideRyan]

It's definitely homerism on my part, but I give Dawson a lot of leeway based on his early #s considering how much Montreal tore him apart.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Dawson is definitely a bubble candidate. His vote in recent elections has hovered around 50% which indicates he has support, but he hasn't gained any votes either.

 

He's a tough call for me because he was one of my all-time favorite players. It's easier for me to support him now that I've come around on Rice belonging in the Hall.

 

In his favor, he won an MVP (and ranked 2nd twice) and a ROY award. He has 8 gold gloves, 4 Silver Slugger awards, has 438 HRs, 1591 RBI and 314 SB.

 

Players that are most similar to Dawson are:

Billy Williams (892) *

Tony Perez (886) *

Dave Parker (865)

Al Kaline (859) *

Harold Baines (851)

Dwight Evans (834)

Ernie Banks (829) *

Dave Winfield (827) *

Vada Pinson (810)

Fred McGriff (797)

 

5 of that list are in the HOF. Of the ones that are not, Dawson was a better defender. Andre was a classy person and consumate team mate.

 

Dawson's stats aren't as impressive as one would like them to be, but he was one of the most feared hitters of his generation. In his prime, had you polled most sportswriters or fans, there was little doubt Dawson would be a HOF. He fell short of 500 HR's which would have made him a lock, but he is a classy guy.

 

He definitely isn't a no doubter, but he's waited his time and I think it's time to let him in. There certainly are worse players in the hall. I'm voting "yes", but I'll admit that my standards may be a little lower than some.

 

I don't buy into the argument that we'd water down the HOF by letting in players like Dawson and Rice. The HOF already has been watered down with the admissions of Mazeroski, Tony Perez, and others.

[DCNashville]

I look at Andre as a rare case that metrics can't give a complete picture. The OPS/OBP isn't there---no question. However, Dawson was so complete for such a long time---great defender, great baserunner, very good power, hit for average several years, etc. To me there's no doubt he was among the most complete players of his era, and may be one player that the scouts could be more right than the statisticians. (NOT A SLAM ON METRICS, AS I DEFINITELY PUT MORE STOCK IN NUMBERS THAN WHAT I SEE.)

 

P.S. If Dawson hadn't finished 2nd in the MVP balloting twice---if he'd won both, giving him 3 MVP awards---would he be more of a no doubt HOF'er? If so, should finishing 2nd twice be that huge a difference?

[RynoRules]

I look at Andre as a rare case that metrics can't give a complete picture. The OPS/OBP isn't there---no question. However, Dawson was so complete for such a long time---great defender, great baserunner, very good power, hit for average several years, etc. To me there's no doubt he was among the most complete players of his era, and may be one player that the scouts could be more right than the statisticians. (NOT A SLAM ON METRICS, AS I DEFINITELY PUT MORE STOCK IN NUMBERS THAN WHAT I SEE.)

 

P.S. If Dawson hadn't finished 2nd in the MVP balloting twice---if he'd won both, giving him 3 MVP awards---would he be more of a no doubt HOF'er? If so, should finishing 2nd twice be that huge a difference?

 

Exactly. Metrics canot tell you about his professionalism and hustle, and the fact that he played on two gimpy knees for most of his career, yet put up HOF-like nos. In addition, he had an absolute rocket arm that was highly accurate (think Vlad Guerrero). Not to mention his performance in 87' was unmatched during that decade; I mean no one came close to putting up nos. like that during the 80's. It was astounding, particularly since he did it for this team:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/1987.shtml

 

Yeah, its my heart strings that are being tugged (I was eleven that summer and worshipped the very ground he walked on), but I vote "yes".

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I look at Andre as a rare case that metrics can't give a complete picture. The OPS/OBP isn't there---no question. However, Dawson was so complete for such a long time---great defender, great baserunner, very good power, hit for average several years, etc. To me there's no doubt he was among the most complete players of his era, and may be one player that the scouts could be more right than the statisticians. (NOT A SLAM ON METRICS, AS I DEFINITELY PUT MORE STOCK IN NUMBERS THAN WHAT I SEE.)

 

P.S. If Dawson hadn't finished 2nd in the MVP balloting twice---if he'd won both, giving him 3 MVP awards---would he be more of a no doubt HOF'er? If so, should finishing 2nd twice be that huge a difference?

 

Exactly. Metrics canot tell you about his professionalism and hustle, and the fact that he played on two gimpy knees for most of his career, yet put up HOF-like nos. In addition, he had an absolute rocket arm that was highly accurate (think Vlad Guerrero). Not to mention his performance in 87' was unmatched during that decade; I mean no one came close to putting up nos. like that during the 80's. It was astounding, particularly since he did it for this team:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/1987.shtml

 

Yeah, its my heart strings that are being tugged (I was eleven that summer and worshipped the very ground he walked on), but I vote "yes".

 

Dawson's 87 MVP vote one of the worst selections in the history of baseball. I know I'm going to look like a homer but check out Dawson's 87:

 

.287/.328/.568

 

Now Jack Clark's:

 

.286/.459/.597

 

 

:-k

 

 

Andre Dawson was one of the most over rated players of his generation.

[J.R.]

Andre Dawson was one of the most over rated players of his generation.

 

I don't think anyone who played in Montreal could be considered overrated. The man got almost no publicity while toiling as an Expo.

[goonys evil twin]

Andre Dawson was one of the most over rated players of his generation.

 

No kidding. It wasn't just 87 that his OBP was missing, it was most of his career. He had a good OBP once or twice. He spent about 10 years as a middle of the order power hitter, and had 100 RBI only 4 times. He was really no better than Harold Baines or Dave Parker, and well behind others of his generation like Winfield and Rice.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Andre Dawson was one of the most over rated players of his generation.

 

I don't think anyone who played in Montreal could be considered overrated. The man got almost no publicity while toiling as an Expo.

 

I disagree, while there he placed 2nd in the MVP vote twice.

[J.R.]

Andre Dawson was one of the most over rated players of his generation.

 

I don't think anyone who played in Montreal could be considered overrated. The man got almost no publicity while toiling as an Expo.

 

I disagree, while there he placed 2nd in the MVP vote twice.

 

Sure, but the general public didn't see a lot of him. Imagine the attention he'd have garnered with those seasons in New York, or even somewhere like Cincinnati. Montreal was a black hole.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Andre Dawson was one of the most over rated players of his generation.

 

I don't think anyone who played in Montreal could be considered overrated. The man got almost no publicity while toiling as an Expo.

 

I disagree, while there he placed 2nd in the MVP vote twice.

 

Sure, but the general public didn't see a lot of him. Imagine the attention he'd have garnered with those seasons in New York, or even somewhere like Cincinnati. Montreal was a black hole.

 

Actually Montreal drew more fans than Cincinnati in the 80's:

 

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/1980-89attendance.htm

 

 

Hah, this is actually my "baseball failed Montreal not the other way around" rant.

 

:lol:

[J.R.]

Andre Dawson was one of the most over rated players of his generation.

 

I don't think anyone who played in Montreal could be considered overrated. The man got almost no publicity while toiling as an Expo.

 

I disagree, while there he placed 2nd in the MVP vote twice.

 

Sure, but the general public didn't see a lot of him. Imagine the attention he'd have garnered with those seasons in New York, or even somewhere like Cincinnati. Montreal was a black hole.

 

Actually Montreal drew more fans than Cincinnati in the 80's:

 

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/1980-89attendance.htm

 

 

Hah, this is actually my "baseball failed Montreal not the other way around" rant.

 

:lol:

 

I don't think we're debating the same point ... I don't doubt that Dawson and the Expos were well received in Montreal in those days, but he'd have been more famous/overrated in this country had he played the game of his youth on a team besides the two Canadian entries.

 

I think Dawson, Raines and Cromartie would have been superstars of the highest order had they played together anywhere else.

[goonys evil twin]

Dawson is overrated. He received an MVP he didn't deserve, and gets pub for the Hall which he's not worthy of, especially by Cubs fans.

[rawaction]

Agreed, Goony. I can't believe this poll's results. The only reason he's even on the ballot is because of his MVP and what he could have potentially done with good knees.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Phil Rogers pimps the Hawk here.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Dayn Perry believes the Hawk belongs.

 

Dawson tallied 438 homers, 2,774 hits, 314 steals, an MVP, eight Gold Gloves and eight All-Star appearances. For the first half of his career, Dawson was a standout defender in center, and for the last half of his career he was a standout defender in right. His on-base skills weren't what you'd want from a Hall of Famer, but his power (1,039 career extra-base hits — good for 21st place on the all-time list), great defense and longevity get "Hawk" the nod. Dawson's case isn't unassailable, but he passes muster.

 

[YearofDaCubs]

Even if he does make the HOF wouldn't he go in as an Expo?

[SouthSideRyan]

10 seasons as an Expo, 6 as a Cub. It's possible he could make it as a Cub because of the MVP, but yeah I think he'd go in (and should be) as an Expo.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Here's an article in support of Dawson.

 

An eight-time All-Star, Dawson captured the National League rookie of the year (1977) and MVP (1987) awards. He won eight Gold Gloves and, as testament to his all-around greatness, he finished among the NL's top 10 in stolen bases three different years en route to 314 career steals.